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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 10th, 2014, 09:54 PM   #4581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonasry View Post
Actually you just highlighted one of the problems of US thinking about HSR. There are other values of HSR then just passenger income. A railway with China will increase growth and in Laos meaning that it might even be feasible to subsidise trips. In the US it seems that only thing that matters is if the numbers are in black at the end line of the company rather then the society at large.
Missing the point, HSR in Laos isn't going to benefit anyone aside from a few members of the ruling class - most simply cannot afford it. It's not a case of unprofitability but rather one of having no justification for the project in the first place.
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Old February 10th, 2014, 10:03 PM   #4582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
I think Monterrey to Dallas is profitable (with a terminus in San Antonio I'm less sure)

I could see this:
Terminus: Monterrey, Nuevo Leon
-Nuevo Laredo, Tamaulipas
-Laredo, Texas
-Pearsall, Texas
-San Antonio, Texas (another rail line connects with Houston)
-San Marcos, Texas
-Austin, Texas
-Georgetown, Texas
-Temple, Texas
-Waco, Texas
-Dallas, Texas
Terminus: McKinney, Texas
A good list, but to make high speed rail work you need enough distance between stops to gain speed without all the slowing down and speeding up again. Places like New Braunfels, San Marcos, Round Rock and Temple will hopefully soon have commuter rail to connect to the high speed stops. I'd amend your list to this:

Terminus: Monterrey, Nuevo Leon
-Nuevo Laredo, Tamaulipas
-Laredo, Texas
-San Antonio, Texas (another rail line connects with Houston)
-Austin, Texas
-Georgetown, Texas
-Waco, Texas
Terminus: Dallas, Texas
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Old February 11th, 2014, 01:16 AM   #4583
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I like the idea of commuter rail supplementing high speed rail. I've noticed so many resources have been spent on expanding the Interstates here in Texas. Why not work to use some of the Interstate right of way for high speed and commuter rail? I'm sure the curve radius issue could be solved by purchasing land close to the freeway corridor to smooth out the curves.

Seeing how quickly China is implementing high speed rail infrastructure just makes it more frustrating when we hear US politicians tell us that implementing this kind of service will take "many many" years.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 04:07 AM   #4584
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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
. Seeing how quickly China is implementing high speed rail infrastructure just makes it more frustrating when we hear US politicians tell us that implementing this kind of service will take "many many" years.
That's what happens when you appropriate peanuts to the railways...
Try taking $6-8 billion to build a $60+ billion system and see how long it takes...
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Old February 11th, 2014, 06:15 AM   #4585
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Well, let's be honest, it's not just the absence of political will or money; how many NIMBYs and misguided environmentalists have gotten in the way of California's HSR project, and how much more did Amtrak estimate a revamped NEC HSR line cost due to land acquisition costs? China has none of the obstacles, and so the situation isn't really comparable.

Now, in comparison to the UK's HS2 plans we begin to look pretty pathetic.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 11:35 AM   #4586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post


Seeing how quickly China is implementing high speed rail infrastructure just makes it more frustrating when we hear US politicians tell us that implementing this kind of service will take "many many" years.
As Acquaticko said, you're trying to compare cheese and chalk - you'd have to fundamentally change the US legal system to do what they do in China. The UK can force compulsory house selling but there's always a lot of wrangling over compensation given. In the US you'd have the "benefit" of a very litigious culture throwing lawsuit after lawsuit at your project (see Fresno Farmers vs Cali HSR)
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Old February 11th, 2014, 11:53 AM   #4587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post


I like the idea of commuter rail supplementing high speed rail. I've noticed so many resources have been spent on expanding the Interstates here in Texas. Why not work to use some of the Interstate right of way for high speed and commuter rail? I'm sure the curve radius issue could be solved by purchasing land close to the freeway corridor to smooth out the curves.
It can only be done on very flat highway ROW, and even than it requires extensive rebuilding of any single exit, interchange and junction. It is doable (Italy used that approach), but it is not cheap.

Highways can cope with 5% grades, high speed rail, ideally, with no more than 2% grades
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Old February 11th, 2014, 01:52 PM   #4588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
As Acquaticko said, you're trying to compare cheese and chalk - you'd have to fundamentally change the US legal system to do what they do in China. The UK can force compulsory house selling but there's always a lot of wrangling over compensation given. In the US you'd have the "benefit" of a very litigious culture throwing lawsuit after lawsuit at your project (see Fresno Farmers vs Cali HSR)
The UK also has an established, well used rail system and major cities have trams/subway/metro/buses so people don't have to drive to/from stations on either end. The HS2 line is primarily due to relieve overcrowding on the Victorian mainlines - the journey time improvements are a bonus
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Old February 11th, 2014, 02:57 PM   #4589
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Quote:
A railway with China will increase growth and in Laos meaning that it might even be feasible to subsidise trips.
A 130km/h spec. railway would do the same at a lower cost and burden on the future citizenry, and actually benefit the population directly rather than hoping for trickle down effects of just whisking Chinese apparatchiks and rich foreign tourists to the Plain of Jars (or wherever) to take their snapshots, as Sopomon alluded to. You gotta learn to walk before you run.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 06:05 PM   #4590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It can only be done on very flat highway ROW, and even than it requires extensive rebuilding of any single exit, interchange and junction. It is doable (Italy used that approach), but it is not cheap.

Highways can cope with 5% grades, high speed rail, ideally, with no more than 2% grades
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUIKzqFo_H0

Please let us know if the ICE train is climbing a 2% grade or less.

High speed trains usually can climb steeper gradients that regular trains.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 06:32 PM   #4591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Indian View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUIKzqFo_H0

Please let us know if the ICE train is climbing a 2% grade or less.

High speed trains usually can climb steeper gradients that regular trains.
Wow, that was amazing!!!! There goes the argument about HSR unable to navigate steep grades. If we get HSR in Texas there won't be any hills like that to climb unless for some reason it's needed in the Hill Country.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 06:41 PM   #4592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
I'll believe it when I see it. FYI, the cost of the HSR line is equivalent of 80% of Laos' whole national budget, and is entirely dependent on Chinese loans, which are likely to never be repaid (who is going to ride the train and provide decent farebox recovery?- certainly not your average Laotian, who isn't exactly rich, or even middle class). Better hope that there are lots of foreigners who will ride the train, coz your peasant who lives below the viaducts can't.
You may have misread the tone of my post: I'm not saying what Laos is doing is good or bad. I'm just noting that Laos will have HSR before America does. As for whether or not it actually gets built, we'll see, but I am quite confident it will. China has laid enough HSR in the last 8 years to connect the east and west coasts of the United States twice. Extending it a few hundred miles into Laos, or even all the way to Singapore, will be applesauce.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 06:45 PM   #4593
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My HSR map of the South. That just about covers all major cities.

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Old February 11th, 2014, 06:49 PM   #4594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Wow, that was amazing!!!! There goes the argument about HSR unable to navigate steep grades. If we get HSR in Texas there won't be any hills like that to climb unless for some reason it's needed in the Hill Country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Indian View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUIKzqFo_H0

Please let us know if the ICE train is climbing a 2% grade or less.

High speed trains usually can climb steeper gradients that regular trains.
The high-speed line between Köln and Frankfurt Flughafen (airport) has 2 short sectors with 4% grade, both less than 1.5 mile long. Trains don't have the power to maintain high-speed when climbing those sectors, and they couldn't even departure from a standstill from there. They lose a lot of speed on these short climbs, relying on inertia to overcome them.

Therefore, you couldn't possible run trains on that grade for longer sectors.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 07:54 PM   #4595
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They lose a lot of speed on these short climbs, relying on inertia to overcome them.
*Momentum. Inertia is resistance to motion, momentum the tendency of moving objects to stay in motion.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 11:57 PM   #4596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musiccity View Post
My HSR map of the South. That just about covers all major cities.

For the area which needs HSR the least
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Old February 12th, 2014, 12:06 AM   #4597
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The South is the least developed, surely it needs it more than the west?
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Old February 12th, 2014, 12:31 AM   #4598
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Originally Posted by joezierer View Post
The South is the least developed, surely it needs it more than the west?
and that is why it should not go there, but rather in the already very urbanized and more transit oriented parts of the country (my opinion on HSR is NEC, California, Midwest, or there's not a chance)
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Old February 12th, 2014, 01:04 AM   #4599
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
they couldn't even departure from a standstill from there.
This is not true. The baureihen that are authorized to operate in Köln-Rhein/Main are able to start from a standstill on gradients of 4%.

Publicly available data and common sense.
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Old February 12th, 2014, 02:18 AM   #4600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamauchi View Post
You may have misread the tone of my post: I'm not saying what Laos is doing is good or bad. I'm just noting that Laos will have HSR before America does. As for whether or not it actually gets built, we'll see, but I am quite confident it will. China has laid enough HSR in the last 8 years to connect the east and west coasts of the United States twice. Extending it a few hundred miles into Laos, or even all the way to Singapore, will be applesauce.
In a sense though that's still off the mark - it's only been green flagged by the Laotian government - China is doing everything. Yes Laos will have HSR, but it's comparable to building another line in a new province for the Chinese interests.
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