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Old September 9th, 2014, 09:27 PM   #4841
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I read elsewhere that there are still major issues with land acquisition that being the main reason why a serious constructions can't start yet. Yet another opportunity for opponents to kill the project...
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Old September 12th, 2014, 01:15 AM   #4842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
I imagine it will also be necessary to have dual trains able to run on electrified routes and pathways that are not.
The Talgo AVRIL may also have hybrid version, as the Spanish 730 series or VIP train to King Abdullah of Saudi, part of delivery Haramain.

A greeting, and sorry for my bad English
The entire CASHR line will be electrified so no need for EMU/DMU hybrid trains.
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Old September 12th, 2014, 08:40 AM   #4843
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But it does remain an interesting future option to expand networks to non-electrified sections, of which the USA just happens to have a lot.
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Old September 12th, 2014, 08:44 AM   #4844
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Or to manage the transition - taking time - from diesel to electric traction. The beauty
of those trains is that once they run entirely under wires, you can just remove the two
"power pack cars" from the consist and you end up with a purely electric train.
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Old September 12th, 2014, 12:15 PM   #4845
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Siemens to build Florida inter-city trains

From Railway Gazette

"Private passenger promoter All Aboard Florida has selected Siemens to supply trainsets for its proposed Miami – Orlando inter-city service using the Florida East Coast Railway, the two companies announced on September 11.
Siemens is to supply 200 km/h Charger diesel locomotives and ‘modern single-level inter-city passenger cars’. These would be assembled Sacramento using components manufactured across the USA, making them fully compliant with Buy America requirements.
AAF plans to start operations with five trainsets, each formed of two diesel locomotives and four passenger coaches. These will operate between Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach at the southern end of the route, where services are expected to begin in 2016. The trains would be extended to seven coaches and five more trainsets ordered when the second phase is completed between West Palm Beach and Orlando International Airport".



I add:
The line is single track, now serves only freight trains. It will be circulated to 127 km / h from Miami to West Palm Beach (2016), and amended, with double track for 176 km / h from there to Cocoa (2017). In October 2013, owners of All Aboard Florida highway and reached an agreement to purchase the land needed for the construction of the trace between Cocoa and Orlando, with construction planned to begin in early 2015 These 64 km would a maximum speed of 201 km / h.
It would take 3 hours (4 hours car drive), 125 km / h on average (very difficult in an ancient line, shared with goods and with maximum speeds of 127/176/201 km / h) to travel the 378 km; estimated 50 million passengers and say nothing of trains that circulate only between 12 and 14 times a day.
..................................................
La línea, de vía única, ahora sirve solo a los trenes de mercancías. Se circulará a 127 km/h de Miami a West Palm Beach (2016), y se modificará, con vía doble, para 176 km/h desde allí hasta Cocoa (2017). En octubre de 2013, Los dueños de la autopista y All Aboard Florida llegaron a un acuerdo de compra de los terrenos necesarios para la construcción de la traza entre Cocoa y Orlando, con la construcción planeada para comenzar a principios de 2015. Estos 64 km tendrían una velocidad máxima de 201 km/h.
Se tardarían 3 horas (4 horas en coche), a 125 km/h de media (muy difícil en una línea antigua, compartida con mercancías y con unas velocidades máximas de 127/176/201 km/h) en recorrer los 378 km; calculan unos 50 millones de viajeros y no dicen nada de los trenes, solo que circularían entre 12 y 14 veces al día.
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Old September 12th, 2014, 02:44 PM   #4846
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That's good that Siemens will build trains for AAF, but Velaro looks better for me
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Old September 12th, 2014, 02:45 PM   #4847
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Plus AAF's station designs continues to appear - this one at West Palm Beach:





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Old September 12th, 2014, 10:09 PM   #4848
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The locomotives are diesel. If they were DMUs could be similar to the ICE TD, but that would have a fixed composition. I think it's easier locomotives that are similar to these and manufactured in USA.
..............................
Las locomotoras serán diésel. Si hubiesen sido DMUs podían ser parecidos a los ICE TD, pero eso significaría tener composición fija. Creo que es más fácil que sean locomotoras parecidas a éstas, y fabricadas en USA.
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Old September 12th, 2014, 11:23 PM   #4849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
But it does remain an interesting future option to expand networks to non-electrified sections, of which the USA just happens to have a lot.
The rest of the rail network is not built to high-speed standards so why would they want to run high speed trains on that network? If they end up expanding the network, they'll upgrade or build from scratch the new sections. It makes no sense to spend additional resources on high speed train set that can run on non-electrified sections which aren't rated for high-speed operations.
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Old September 12th, 2014, 11:48 PM   #4850
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It does make sense in other countries, but probably not in US (maybe North East corridor).
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Old September 13th, 2014, 12:03 AM   #4851
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Suppose that opens to service the high-speed section of 209 km Madera-Bakersfield in California. A hybrid train can operate as a high-speed electric train in that stretch and diesel in non-electrified areas to take advantage of high-speed section on the way Los Angeles-San Francisco / Sacramento.
It is what happens in Spain.
..................................................
Supongamos que se abre al servicio el tramo de alta velocidad de 209 km Madera-Bakersfield en California. Un tren híbrido puede circular como un tren de alta velocidad eléctrico en ese tramo y en diésel en las zonas no electrificadas para aprovechar las ventajas del tramo de alta velocidad en el trayecto Los Angeles-San Francisco/Sacramento.

Es lo que sucede en España.
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Old September 13th, 2014, 12:09 AM   #4852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Suppose that opens to service the high-speed section of 209 km Madera-Bakersfield in California. A hybrid train can operate as a high-speed electric train in that stretch and diesel in non-electrified areas to take advantage of high-speed section on the way Los Angeles-San Francisco / Sacramento.
It is what happens in Spain.
There is no train going from SF all the way to LA on that route (Bakersfield is the last station, after that it's a bus connection). All routes in California are owned by freight railways and more passenger trains is the last thing they want to see on their lines. That's why I wrote that it makes sense in Europe, but not it California.
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Old September 13th, 2014, 12:26 AM   #4853
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Are the sections to be built, for example in California, will be isolated, unconnected with the rest of the network?
...............................................................
¿Los tramos que se construyan, por ejemplo en California, quedarán aislados, sin conexión con el resto de la red?
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Old September 13th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #4854
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The route from Bakersfield to LA goes over Tehachapi Pass with its famous loop.

That route is partially single track, and at its maximum capacity as it is.

There is no direct route from the Central Valley to San Fran.

And there is not enough to traffic to Sacramento to justify the cost (yet).
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Old September 13th, 2014, 12:44 AM   #4855
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Thanks for the information. Yes, I know the loop, but did not think it was there.
In Spain hybrid trains take advantage of high-speed lines without overhead. For example, it took 7 h 48 m between Madrid and La Coruna (643 km) with a conventional diesel train line (84 km / h) until the opening of a high-speed section allowed only 133 km journey down 5 h 59 m (107 km / h).
And that changing width: 1,435 mm high-speed and conventional to 1,668 mm.
...............................................................
Gracias por la información. Sí, conozco el lazo, pero no pensé que fuese allí.
En España los trenes híbridos llevan las ventajas de la alta velocidad a líneas sin catenaria. Por ejemplo, se tardaba 7 h 48 m entre Madrid y Coruña (643 km) con un tren diesel por línea convencional (84 km/h) hasta que la apertura de un tramo de alta velocidad de solo 133 km permitió bajar el trayecto a 5 h 59 m (107 km/h).
Y eso cambiando de ancho: alta velocidad a 1.435 mm y convencional a 1.668 mm.
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Old September 13th, 2014, 12:56 AM   #4856
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Low level boarding high speed trains are not likely in the US since the FRA safety regulations prohibit traps on tier II compliant high speed rolling stock.
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Old September 13th, 2014, 08:54 AM   #4857
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My understanding is that when Madera-Bakersfield section is finished it will be used by the current Amtrak trains (SF-Bakersfield). There may be more of them and there will certainly be significant time improvements however the real high speed trains will only appear when this section is connected to either SF or LA. Not known yet which connection is likely to happen first.

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Old September 13th, 2014, 10:12 AM   #4858
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My guess is both cities will fight to have their connection to the Madera-Bakersfield section built as soon as possible.
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Old September 14th, 2014, 07:34 PM   #4859
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Hi!

From the Spanish experience with the 1992 bet by the high speed I take these personal conclusions.

The increase in speed produces large effects on business results:
-Produces a significant increase in the number of passengers. Even greater is the increase in revenue, since many times the traveler prefers to contribute more money if you win time, a time that can also be "monetized".
-Reduce operating costs, they are more related to travel time to the distance (trains and staff productivity, comfort equipment ...). Also: fixed maintenance costs and amortization of infrastructure and trains are virtually unchanged.
-Attract rail travelers from other modes of transport.
-Improves overall image of the company, even in areas that have nothing to do.

Increasing rating has a direct effect in the form of higher incomes, but indirectly has an effect almost more important: for each route allows an increase in the frequency (which implies a higher density of use in infrastructure), and an increase size and occupation of each train (getting "economies of density" in the operation of the services). The train is competitive advantage when transporting high volumes of travelers, so that the processes of growth in passenger numbers produce a more than proportional improvement in business results. This produces a "virtuous circle" an opposite to the well known "vicious cycle" of rising prices> drop in passenger numbers> reduced supply and utilization, and reduced margins.

The growth in the number of travelers has produced almost entirely at the expense of air transport, although not negligible "induced demand" which was previously not well served by any means: for all runners with high speed overall demand has increased. The bus has the advantage of price, and the private car door to door convenience.

Analysis of the data for Spain, it follows that the railroad has a share of over 50% for travel times under 3 h 35 m, up to 100% share when less than 1 h 10 m. Since January 2007, facing a drop in traffic of 30% in all domestic routes where AVE is not present, the air corridor Madrid-Valencia shows a decrease of 77%, 68% the Madrid-Málaga route and 49% in Madrid-Barcelona.

Corridor / AVE 2013% /% pre-AVE / Distance
Madrid-Sevilla 90.2 36.1 470 km
Madrid-Valencia 88.0 43.0 390 km
Madrid-Málaga 84.6 34.9 513 km
Madrid-Alicante 80.0 65.0 479 km
Madrid-Barcelona 58.6 13.3 621 km
Other shorter runners (125 to 442 km) with 100% share of the AVE:
Madrid-Valladolid, Madrid-Zaragoza Madrid-Lleida; Barcelona-Valencia, Sevilla-Córdoba-Málaga and Córdoba.

Note: Only AVE and aircraft are included.
In the case of Madrid-Barcelona for the plane influenced by the fact that the business park and the IFEMA are close to Madrid airport.
Madrid-Alicante: only half a year in 2013. In 2012 wore high-speed part of the route (Alvia service).

A greeting
.................................................................
Hola!
Desde la experiencia española con la apuesta de 1992 por la alta velocidad saco estas conclusiones personales.
El aumento de la velocidad produce grandes efectos sobre los resultados del negocio:
-Produce un aumento significativo del número de viajeros transportados. Aún mayor es el aumento de los ingresos, ya que muchas veces el viajero prefiere aportar más dinero si gana tiempo, un tiempo que también puede ser “monetarizado”.
-Se reducen los costes operativos, que están más ligados al tiempo de viaje que a la distancia recorrida (productividad de los trenes y del personal, equipos de confort ...). Además: los costes fijos de mantenimiento y amortización de infraestructura y trenes son, prácticamente, invariables.
-Atrae al ferrocarril a viajeros de otros modos de transporte.
-Mejora la imagen general de la empresa, incluso en áreas que nada tienen que ver.
El aumento de viajeros tiene un efecto directo en forma de mayores ingresos, pero indirectamente tiene un efecto casi de mayor importancia: permite en cada ruta un aumento de la frecuencia (lo que implica una mayor densidad de uso en la infraestructura), y un aumento del tamaño y ocupación de cada tren (obteniendo “economías de densidad” en la operación de los servicios). El tren encuentra ventajas competitivas cuando transporta elevados volúmenes de viajeros, por lo que los procesos de crecimiento del número de viajeros producen unas mejoras más que proporcionales en los resultados del negocio. Se produce así un “círculo virtuoso” opuesto al bien conocido “círculo vicioso” de subida de precios > bajada del número de viajeros > reducción de oferta y aprovechamiento, y reducción de márgenes.
El crecimiento en el número de viajeros se ha producido, casi enteramente, a costa del transporte aéreo, aunque no es desdeñable la “demanda inducida” que antes no estaba bien atendida por ningún medio: en todos los corredores con alta velocidad la demanda general ha aumentado. El autobús cuenta con la ventaja del precio, y el coche particular con la comodidad puerta a puerta.
Del análisis de los datos para España, se deduce que el ferrocarril tiene una cuota superior al 50 % para tiempos de viaje menores de 3 h 35 m, hasta alcanzar el 100 % de cuota cuando es inferior a 1 h 10 m. Desde enero de 2007, frente a una caída del tráfico del 30 % en el conjunto de las rutas domésticas en las que no está presente el AVE, el corredor aéreo Madrid-Valencia presenta un descenso del 77 %, un 68 % la ruta Madrid-Málaga y un 49 % en Madrid-Barcelona.
Corredor / % AVE 2013 / % pre-AVE / Distancia
Madrid-Sevilla 90,2 36,1 en 470 km
Madrid-Valencia 88,0 43,0 en 390 km
Madrid-Málaga 84,6 34,9 en 513 km
Madrid-Alicante 80,0 65,0 en 479 km
Madrid-Barcelona 58,6 13,3 en 621 km
Otros corredores más cortos (125/442 km) con un 100 % de cuota del AVE:
Madrid-Valladolid / Zaragoza / Lleida; Barcelona-Valencia, Sevilla-Córdoba y Córdoba-Málaga.
Notas: solo se cuenta AVE y aviación.
En el caso de Madrid-Barcelona a favor del avión influye el hecho de que el parque empresarial y el Ifema estén junto al aeropuerto de Madrid.
Madrid-Alicante: solo medio año de AVE en 2013. En 2012 se cubría con alta velocidad parte del recorrido.

Un saludo
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Old September 15th, 2014, 09:32 AM   #4860
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The exact same thing happened in France when they started operating the LGVs. In Japan domestic flights are mainly limited to the longest domestic routes, but Shinkansen has the major share. In Germany there is less effect, because of the lower speeds on the NBSs, coupled to more stops.
But the obvious moral of the story: provide a good alternative and people will use it.
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