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Old October 7th, 2014, 01:05 AM   #4881
Gusiluz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
It seems like they're leaning towards Japanese trains. Note, it isn't always about top speed. If I'm not mistaken, the Multiple EMU setup of the N700 makes it one of the fastest to accelerate to top speed.

Also, its max speed is 270km/h on the original line with min. 2500m curve radius.
On newer sections with 4000m curve radius, it is limited to 300km/h.

California doesn't have as strict noise pollution laws, fewer tunnels, and fewer earthquakes... meaning it would likely be able to travel much faster in California than in Japan.

Edit: According to this article, max speed would be up to 322km/h for the N700: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/201...texas-by-2021/
From my notes:
An S-103 Velaro train accelerates from 0 to 100 in 50 seconds and reaches a speed of 320 km / h in 6 minutes and 20 seconds covering about 20 km. On the other hand, runs 6,729 m to stop traveling at 350 km / h, 4,690 (300), 3,130 (250) and 1,940 (200 km / h).
The Shinkansen N700 reaches 270 km / h in 3 minutes and walking 11.1 km to reach 300 km / h.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 10:00 AM   #4882
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Thanks for that Gusiluz. That's quite a difference in acceleration. Likely due to the massive difference in weight for the trains.

I did some more digging as well. Japan is advertising a max speed US of 300km/h for the N-700i-I (I assume the "I" is for International).
http://www.usjhsr.com/usjhsr/N700-I_Bullet.html

A few comparisons with ICE3 and TGV.
http://www.japantransport.com/seminar/JRCENTRAL.pdf

It seems the main benefits of the N700 are its weight and acceleration. Considering Japan is REALLY pushing to Export its train system, I think they will likely be offering as good a price for a better product. Japan has only successfully exported its trains to Taiwan, and the Shinkansen is the pride of Japan. They have also exported E2-1000 trainsets to China, along with a technology transfer (CRH-2 trains), but Japan is looking at exporting the core of the fleet, the N700, to the USA.

Personally, I would have loved to see the E5 series being exported, but it's not as tried and true as the N700, starting revenue service only in 2011.

With the Japanese economy the way it is, and Japan's Shinkansen network nearing build-out of the most feasible corridors, they really have to look outside the country to keep the industry building new trains.

The USA would be a HUGE feather in their cap to sell to places like India and Vietnam.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 10:59 AM   #4883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
I can't find the source, but I understand that peak pax has declined slightly from 2007. Of course, population of Japan is also declining, so I guess it's all how you interpret the numbers.

A few new lines are coming online in the next few years, so I'm sure we'll see record numbers again, anyhow.
The source is the UIC until 2009 and then the annual reports of the companies themselves, which coincide with the UIC in previous years. In 2012 no data for Kyushu, so I added them last year.
The numbers in detail by companies:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen

Greetings and sorry for my bad English
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Old October 7th, 2014, 11:11 AM   #4884
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In the thread of this in Spanish have asked for the price of the train, so I will put it here.
The Velaro CN: 22.7 / 20.5 M €, and N700 of 8 cars: 29.6 M € (the conversion was made at the time the contract).
Velaro prices are in manufacturing CNR Tangshan (China), in Germany USA cost more.

...................
They also want the Talgo AVRIL offered. Well, it would offer the 112 series with Bombardier (which has no train to present) but with wide as the prototype AVRIL G3. I understand that the "service-proven trainset" has to do with the width of the box.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 01:40 PM   #4885
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This makes the N700 look really expensive, which it isn't when you compare it to the following examples:
Velaro D: € 33,3M (500M for 15 sets)
Eurostar E320: € 60M per set (€ 600M for 10 sets)
11-car AGV (NTV): € 26M (€ 650M for 25 sets)

Bombardier does have a suitable train: There are several Zefiro variants in test and operation, both in normal and wide body.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 07:11 PM   #4886
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Yeah, well. The Eurostar e320 includes 10 years of maintenance, and the Velaro D have 4 itension and 6 backup systems for 4 countries (LZB, PZB, TBL, TVM, KVB and ATB).
Eventually there will be 17 trains because ICE 3M is out by an accident at a level crossing, and one free for the delay in delivery.
...........................
Sí, bueno. El Eurostar e320 incluye 10 años de mantenimiento, y el Velaro D es cuatritension y con 6 sistemas de respaldo de 4 países (LZB, PZB, TBL, TVM, ATB y KVB).
Al final serán 17 trenes porque un ICE 3M está de baja por un accidente en un paso a nivel, y otro gratis por el retraso en la entrega.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 11:02 PM   #4887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
This makes the N700 look really expensive, which it isn't when you compare it to the following examples:
Velaro D: € 33,3M (500M for 15 sets)
Eurostar E320: € 60M per set (€ 600M for 10 sets)
11-car AGV (NTV): € 26M (€ 650M for 25 sets)

Bombardier does have a suitable train: There are several Zefiro variants in test and operation, both in normal and wide body.
Has anyone done a like-for-like comparison?

What's the difference between the Velaro CN and D. The CN is the China-made variant, I assume?

Buying high speed trainsets is buying into a system. When will we know which companies have submitted bids?
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Old October 8th, 2014, 12:07 PM   #4888
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I've just watched McCarthy's declarations concerning the funding, accountability and about freezing federal funds for the train.

I'm very excited about the California HSR project. Is it already decided that japanese companies will provide the train sets? I've read that they are gathering proposals:

Caltrain and High-Speed Rail Pursue Level Boarding, Compatible Platforms



Officials representing Caltrain and the California High-Speed Rail Authority recently announced that they’ll work closely together over the next several months to on a joint specification for train cars. The cars will allow both systems to board trains from high-level, shared platforms at the future SF Transbay Transit Center, Millbrae, and San Jose stations. The announcement was made last Monday at a meeting hosted by transit advocacy group Friends of Caltrain in Mountain View.

“Level boarding,” so called because passengers will be able to walk directly from platforms onto trains without any steps, maximizes passenger capacity by speeding up boarding. It’s crucial that these three stations have platforms that work for both Caltrain and CAHSR, to maximize flexibility and to reduce redundancy.

http://sf.streetsblog.org/2014/10/07...vel-platforms/
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Old October 8th, 2014, 01:36 PM   #4889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
What's the difference between the Velaro CN and D. The CN is the China-made variant, I assume?
The country designation indicates the country the train was designed for. In case of the Velaro CN, some were made in Germany, but most in China. Differences include body width (CN is 300mm wider), multi-system capabilities and fitted train control systems.

An aspect that make the initial unit cost of Shinkansen more expensive is the emphasis on reliability (an ICE3 is nowhere near as reliable as a N700A or an E5). What really should count is total cost of ownership and those figures are really hard to come by.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 01:47 PM   #4890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donegal View Post
“Level boarding,” so called because passengers will be able to walk directly from platforms onto trains without any steps, maximizes passenger capacity by speeding up boarding. It’s crucial that these three stations have platforms that work for both Caltrain and CAHSR, to maximize flexibility and to reduce redundancy.
That's interesting considering Caltrain has indicated they want to procure a new fleet for 25 inches while CAHSR aims for 50 inches. Given the lack of a real standard I would have picked the same height as already used on the NEC. But then again, the nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 02:34 PM   #4891
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Since both California, Texas, and Mexico are (or at least it seems) to build new infrastructure, then one would expect all parties to agree on the same standard for interoperable trains. They will have the same width, the same power alimentation and the same locking system (ERTMS, with ETCS 2), so we should agree on the issue of gauge and height of platform, it will not be easy if a cases the stations are outside the city and others use existing lines to run into the center of cities.

As for the price, and knowing that it is impossible to know because the trains will be manufactured in USA and there a serie equal to another, we know the cost for the equivalent N700 of 8 cars: 29,6 M € (change of time), the Velaro CN 22.7 (the first serie) and 20,5 the last (manufactured in China), and Velaro D (multisystem for 4 countries, which greatly increase the price): 33.3.
I think what will unbalance the price, the important thing, is the technology transfer, and to remember that when CaHSRA and Amtrak agreed to call a single fleet (later discarded option) wanted a fleet that was exportable, as Joseph Szabo, administrator of the FRA (Federal Railroad Administration).
.........................................
Puesto que tanto California, como Texas, como Méjico van (o al menos lo parece) a construir nuevas infraestructuras, lo lógico sería que se pusiesen de acuerdo en el mismo estándar para que los trenes sean interoperables. Van a tener el mismo ancho, la misma alimentación eléctrica y el mismo sistema de bloqueo (ERTMS, con ETCS 2), así que deberían ponerse de acuerdo en el tema del gálibo y la altura de andenes, lo que no será fácil si en unos casos las estaciones están a las afueras de la ciudad y en otros aprovechan las líneas actuales hasta el centro de las mismas.
En cuanto al precio, y sabiendo que es imposible saberlo porque los trenes se fabricarán en USA y no hay una serie igual a otra, tenemos que los N700 equivalentes de 8 coches costaron (al cambio de entonces) 29,6 M €, los Velaro CN 22,7 (la primera serie) y 20,5 la última (fabricada en China) y los Velaro D (multisistema para 4 países, lo que encarece mucho el precio): 33,3.
Pienso que lo que desequilibrará el precio serán las condiciones de transferencia de tecnología, y es que hay que recordar que cuando CaHSRA y Amtrak acordaron pedir una flota única (opción desechado posteriormente) querían una flota que fuese exportable según Joseph Szabo, administrador de la FRA (Federal Railroad Administration).
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Old October 8th, 2014, 05:06 PM   #4892
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ETCS in the USA? I seriously doubt that will ever happen. ETCS was designed by and for European railroads ("not invented here") and not adapted for the very different operation practices in the USA. That's not to say it could not be adapted for that purpose (NATCS?), but as freight railroads are still dominant and already implent or use their own PTC systems, it would likely remain a niche product.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 05:18 PM   #4893
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@Gusiluz, Im not sure if americans will implement ERTMS because japanese safety system for N700 is the kind of ATC-NS, KS-ATC etc and ATC is very popular in the USA.

seems that for interoperability we will have to invent a North American RTMS in the future.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 08:55 PM   #4894
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Document fresh off the web from the Technical Memorando of CaHSRA:

“The sole technology that is fully compliant with all of the CHSRA project and technical requirements is the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) European Train Control System (ETCS) Level 2 with Global System for Mobile Communications – Railway (GSM-R). ERTMS is service-proven and its attributes are highly applicable to CHSTP automatic train control and radio communications requirements and because the
train control element is integrated within the radio communications system, ERTMS places the highest demands on spectrum and quality of service for the radio network.
This assessment makes several recommendations including that the CHSRA seek the allocation of sufficient radio spectrum for exclusive and/or primary use of a GSM-R system to support ETCS Level 2 for CHSTP operations”.

In 2011 ADIF and Renfe advised the CaHSRA on: Railway Operation, trade policy, maintenance of rolling stock, contingency planning, traffic safety, public safety and civil protection, and outsourcing of support services.

ERTMS is a worldwide standard outside Japan. In Taiwan there are 1,200 km and 811 trains, 4,000 km in China and 270 trains in Saudi are building 2,493 km.

In Spain the first HST were TGV and safety system are LZB was German, and has always worked very well.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 09:01 PM   #4895
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excellent! very wise decision..
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Old October 9th, 2014, 11:37 AM   #4896
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Now that's news. I wonder how this effects Caltrain as they focused on their own system CBOSS. And there is nothing to stop them from creating their own fork of ERTMS, just as China has done. CTCS is basically ETCS with a different air interface. If they're smart they also jump on the ERTMS wagon.

Then again the USA has the same problem Europe has: In the USA every railroad has it's PTC flavour, just like in Europe every country has it's own systems.

As for the Japanese, Hitachi, one of the N700 builders, is already gaining ETCS experience with the British Rail class 800. And they have proven they can can do that. As far as I can tell class 395 never had TVM430 integration problems.
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Old October 9th, 2014, 11:51 AM   #4897
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Here is information on the subject. For me it is complicated by language, so maybe you can do us a summary

Caltrain HSR Compatibility Blog



(It seems everyone by winning the N700, and still nothing)
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Old October 15th, 2014, 08:44 AM   #4898
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Hey so Amtrak's RFPs for the Northeast corridor were due by the first of the first of this month, any one have any ideas when we will know more?
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Old October 16th, 2014, 08:46 AM   #4899
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Hey so Amtrak's RFPs for the Northeast corridor were due by the first of the first of this month, any one have any ideas when we will know more?
Probably not until some time in December.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 07:05 PM   #4900
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CNR to bid for Carlifonia HSR project with CRH380BL trainset, it is reported they are expecting to provide 95 rolling stocks
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