daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 30th, 2014, 02:21 AM   #4961
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Actually they're currently upgrading speeds in New Jersey to 160 miles an hour.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...n_trenton.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4gpZiUyy-U
Glad that they're upgrading to a high speed but taking 6 years to do the upgrade seems like a long ass time. In 6 years China can build a 217 mph line from major city to major city it seems.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...rail_site.html
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 30th, 2014, 02:40 AM   #4962
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 451
Likes (Received): 124

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Glad that they're upgrading to a high speed but taking 6 years to do the upgrade seems like a long ass time. In 6 years China can build a 217 mph line from major city to major city it seems.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...rail_site.html
Remember, though... China builds stations away from the urban centres. Sometimes they're as much as an hour away from the city centre. Build far enough out and you can build FAST.
__________________

FM 2258, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2014, 02:47 AM   #4963
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 805

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Glad that they're upgrading to a high speed but taking 6 years to do the upgrade seems like a long ass time. In 6 years China can build a 217 mph line from major city to major city it seems.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...rail_site.html
I thought they just began, and stated that it will be complete in 2017
__________________
High speed rail=real energy independence!

A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. Itís where the rich use public transportation

Feel The Bern #2016

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2014, 03:10 AM   #4964
krnboy1009
Registered User
 
krnboy1009's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 1,661
Likes (Received): 169

In China there is no lawsuits and environmental studies that takes years to complete and bleed project fund dry.
__________________

CollegeBoy, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
krnboy1009 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2014, 05:10 PM   #4965
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
I thought they just began, and stated that it will be complete in 2017
According to the article the project started in 2011. I guess it's better than not upgrading at all. I imagine they have a really limited time to put work into this since it's such a busy corridor.

Quote:
The federally funded $450 million project began in October 2011 and is slated for completion in June 2017.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2014, 11:11 PM   #4966
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 451
Likes (Received): 124

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
According to the article the project started in 2011. I guess it's better than not upgrading at all. I imagine they have a really limited time to put work into this since it's such a busy corridor.
Yes... and there's also proximity bias. You're close to it, so it seems like it takes so much longer.

China started planning HSR in the early 90s. Almost a quarter-century ago. The first feasibility studies were commissioned in the mid-nineties. Their first 160km/h service started in late '94 between Guangzhou and Shenzhen. 4 years later, the line was electrified. 3 years after that, the X2000 Swiss tilting trains allowed it to run at 200km/h. It runs at 200km/h today with the ability to run 220km/h in some places.

This is a classic example of a line that was upgraded and the closest comparison to the Acela Express, which is also an upgraded line in a busy corridor.

China's new lines, although done very quickly, are all dedicated, separate, infrastructure.

Japan took 5 years to make the world's first bullet train @ ~210km/h (1959 - 1964). It was on dedicated tracks, though admittedly through highly populated areas. One year later, it was increased to 220km/h.

It wasn't until 1992 that the 300-series trains could run 270km/h.
It took 28 years to increase speed 50km/h on a dedicated passenger line.

It was yet another 5 years (1997) before the 300-series ushered in 300km/h west of Osaka.

The original line is stuck at 270km/h until next year when an upgraded N700-series train will be allowed to run at 285km/h. 18 years for a 15km/h increase.

Most of the changes in Japan's Shinkansen trains since 1992 have focused on comfort, efficiency and noise pollution. The 700-series, the N700 series, the N700A and the N700-I (export) are all incremental improvements.

Kind of puts into perspective how long these advancements take.

Here's a great chart of progress over 50 years of high speed lines (includes previous 50 years before High-speed as well)

While it's true that Japan was pioneer of High-speed train lines and so it makes sense that this takes extra time, it's clear that speed increases take time, especially along busy corridors like the NEC.

full size image
__________________
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2014, 12:55 AM   #4967
Gusiluz
Jaťn (Spain)
 
Gusiluz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,578
Likes (Received): 10876

Any precision, without altering the substance of the topic.

The Swedish X2000, known as Xinshisu in China, was only one train in service between 1998 and 2012.

The evolution of the maximum speed in Japan was as follows:

210 km/h. 10/1/1964. First 0 series Tokaido, JNR. Join Tokyo and Osaka an average of 129 km/h. However, the fastest train between stations was the French Mistral, with an average of 132 km/h. This line increased its top speed to 220 in November 1986: 22 years to climb 10 km/h !!.
240 km/h. 03/1985. 200 F series. Tohoku Shinkansen, JNR. Join Tokyo to Morioka.
275 km/h. 03/1990. 200 F90 series. Joetsu Shinkansen, JR East. Join Tokyo and Niigata, 186 km/h on average.
300 km/h. 03/1997. 500 series. Sanyo Shinkansen, JR West. Join Osaka and Hakata, 242 km/h on average. Faster than now.
320 km/h. 16/3/2013. E5 series. Tohoku Shinkansen, JR East. Join Tokyo with Aomori, 226 km/h on average.
360 km/h, scheduled for 2020 in part of Utsunomiya-Morioka section of the Tohoku Shinkansen.

A greeting
__________________

FM 2258, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Gusiluz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2014, 02:35 AM   #4968
City-of-Platinum
BANNED
 
City-of-Platinum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 141

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Actually they're currently upgrading speeds in New Jersey to 160 miles an hour.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...n_trenton.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4gpZiUyy-U
That will barely raise the average speed. The entire line need to be upgraded and curves straightened. Washington to NY should be under 2 hours to finished the air shuttles and allow slot openings at congested airports. It's odd how most of the money went to the California HSR when the NEC is the place where we know rail works. The priority should be the NEC first, where it is most likely to be a success, and then take it elsewhere. But US does things assways when it comes to rail so i'm not surprised. Maybe just go maglev now on the NEC for express parallel to the current tracks. Given it won't be starting any time soon, By the time it starts, maglev will be proven in Japan on inter-city and maybe they can help build a system for the NEC.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post

Last edited by City-of-Platinum; October 31st, 2014 at 02:41 AM.
City-of-Platinum no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2014, 02:36 AM   #4969
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 805

Quote:
Originally Posted by City-of-Platinum View Post
That will barely raise the average speed. The entire line need to be upgraded and curves straightened. Washington to NY should be under 2 hours. It's odd how most of the money went to the California HSR, while the NEC hasn't got its act together. The priority should be the NEC first, not California, etc, where it is most likely to be a success, but the US does things assways when it comes to HSR.
Yes, but it's a start
__________________
High speed rail=real energy independence!

A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. Itís where the rich use public transportation

Feel The Bern #2016

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2014, 03:23 AM   #4970
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 451
Likes (Received): 124

I wouldn't be surprised to see maglev on the NEC and for it to be mostly underground to mitigate nimbyism and noise issues.

Thanks for the detail Gusiluz. Yes, you're right about the x2000. I was just using that as an example. HSR takes time. Even for China moving at breakneck speed.
__________________
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2014, 06:25 AM   #4971
City-of-Platinum
BANNED
 
City-of-Platinum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 141

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
I wouldn't be surprised to see maglev on the NEC and for it to be mostly underground to mitigate nimbyism and noise issues.

Thanks for the detail Gusiluz. Yes, you're right about the x2000. I was just using that as an example. HSR takes time. Even for China moving at breakneck speed.
That would cost a fortune. To tunnel the maglev hundreds of miles is a big dream that has a very low probability of coming true. Conventional rail would be fine for the NEC, the distances are quite small and 200mph is good enough. An average speed of 150mph would allow for an hour and a half travel time from DC to NYC which is a good time. 1.5 hours will likely kill the shuttles.
__________________

FM 2258, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post

Last edited by City-of-Platinum; October 31st, 2014 at 06:38 AM.
City-of-Platinum no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2014, 10:39 AM   #4972
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 451
Likes (Received): 124

Quote:
Originally Posted by City-of-Platinum View Post
That would cost a fortune. To tunnel the maglev hundreds of miles is a big dream that has a very low probability of coming true. Conventional rail would be fine for the NEC, the distances are quite small and 200mph is good enough. An average speed of 150mph would allow for an hour and a half travel time from DC to NYC which is a good time. 1.5 hours will likely kill the shuttles.
Expensive to build, yes. That is very true.

Japan's Chuo line (mag-lev) will be 80% in tunnels. 500km long. $180M / km.
Taiwan is conventional High speed, 18% in tunnels. 264km long. $53M / km.

Note: Amtrak has suggested its plan to upgrade the NEC to cost $151B for 350km/h (220mph) by 2030 (Boston by 2040). For a 720km line, that's $209M / km!!!

Taiwan's line was privately funded. Japan's Chuo line will also be privately funded, apparently.

Building out a high-speed line in the NEC is going to be expensive. Either land procurement or tunnelling won't change the costs drastically.

To run the NEC at an average speed of 150 mph (240km/h) would require trains as fast as JR West's Mizuho service, which travels from Osaka to Hakata (622km) in 150 minutes (6 stops). Max speed 300km/h.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2014, 10:54 AM   #4973
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17034



__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section

Donegal, CNB30, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2014, 11:05 AM   #4974
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17034

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Expensive to build, yes. That is very true.

Japan's Chuo line (mag-lev) will be 80% in tunnels. 500km long. $180M / km.
Taiwan is conventional High speed, 18% in tunnels. 264km long. $53M / km.

Note: Amtrak has suggested its plan to upgrade the NEC to cost $151B for 350km/h (220mph) by 2030 (Boston by 2040). For a 720km line, that's $209M / km!!!

Taiwan's line was privately funded. Japan's Chuo line will also be privately funded, apparently.

Building out a high-speed line in the NEC is going to be expensive. Either land procurement or tunnelling won't change the costs drastically.

To run the NEC at an average speed of 150 mph (240km/h) would require trains as fast as JR West's Mizuho service, which travels from Osaka to Hakata (622km) in 150 minutes (6 stops). Max speed 300km/h.
The 150 billion plan includes ...FRA Plan not Amtrak
Upgrading the Current NEC , replacing all Catenary , Substations , Moveable Bridges and Tunnels
Expanding Terminal Stations at New York , DC , Boston and Secondary Stations like Providence , Newark , Baltimore and Stamford
Restoring Several Intercity Lines like the Lackawanna Corridor , DelMarva Express , Lehigh Corridor , I-83 Corridor , Cape Codder , New Hampshire Capital Corridor - 80-125mph
New NEC using the Long Island / Inland New England Route which reuses abandoned Railroad Corridors and Interstate ROW 170-220mph+
Electrification of the Empire Service , Vermonter / Connecticut River Line
Extension of Downeaster Service to Augusta and Bangor
Relocation of Vermonter to Connecticut River line (Underway)
Higher Speed Rail on Empire and Keystone Services up to 135mph
Replacing Rolling Stock
Upgrading Signals on the Main line
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2014, 01:51 AM   #4975
Tower Dude
Registered User
 
Tower Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 76th Street Station
Posts: 1,044
Likes (Received): 593

Really THAT is the plan? WHY WOULDN'T THEY SAY THAT? That would get a lot of people in the northeast on their side
__________________

"Make no small plans they lack the magic to stir men's blood!" - Daniel Burnham

"The scale is Roman and will have to be sustained."
- Charles Follen McKim (In a letter to a friend concerning the design of Penn Station)
Tower Dude no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2014, 03:05 AM   #4976
City-of-Platinum
BANNED
 
City-of-Platinum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 141

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
The 150 billion plan includes ...FRA Plan not Amtrak
Upgrading the Current NEC , replacing all Catenary , Substations , Moveable Bridges and Tunnels
Expanding Terminal Stations at New York , DC , Boston and Secondary Stations like Providence , Newark , Baltimore and Stamford
Restoring Several Intercity Lines like the Lackawanna Corridor , DelMarva Express , Lehigh Corridor , I-83 Corridor , Cape Codder , New Hampshire Capital Corridor - 80-125mph
New NEC using the Long Island / Inland New England Route which reuses abandoned Railroad Corridors and Interstate ROW 170-220mph+
Electrification of the Empire Service , Vermonter / Connecticut River Line
Extension of Downeaster Service to Augusta and Bangor
Relocation of Vermonter to Connecticut River line (Underway)
Higher Speed Rail on Empire and Keystone Services up to 135mph
Replacing Rolling Stock
Upgrading Signals on the Main line
Under this plan, what is the travel time from NY to Washington like? I assume they will be not constructing new trackage which will probably not result in a true HSR line. since you just mention "NEW NEC" in NY-New England.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
City-of-Platinum no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2014, 03:19 AM   #4977
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 805

Quote:
Originally Posted by City-of-Platinum View Post
Under this plan, what is the travel time from NY to Washington like? I assume they will be not constructing new trackage which will probably not result in a true HSR line. since you just mention "NEW NEC" in NY-New England.
Honestly, I'm tierd of this crap about how the Acela is fake HSR. Yes, the entire route is slow, because it happens to stop at least 20 times, and Connecticut, and all, but, who cares about the entire rout, the train exceeds 150 mph Between Providence, and Boston. I mean come on, if we had a version of the acela that went the same speed as the current one, and only went back, and fourth between Boston, and Providence it would be true HSR. So therefore, True HSR exists between Providence and Boston. BAM America has high speed rail. Case closed.
__________________
High speed rail=real energy independence!

A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. Itís where the rich use public transportation

Feel The Bern #2016

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2014, 04:27 AM   #4978
City-of-Platinum
BANNED
 
City-of-Platinum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 141

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Honestly, I'm tierd of this crap about how the Acela is fake HSR. Yes, the entire route is slow, because it happens to stop at least 20 times, and Connecticut, and all, but, who cares about the entire rout, the train exceeds 150 mph Between Providence, and Boston. I mean come on, if we had a version of the acela that went the same speed as the current one, and only went back, and fourth between Boston, and Providence it would be true HSR. So therefore, True HSR exists between Providence and Boston. BAM America has high speed rail. Case closed.
I was talking about dc-nyc, and I asked Nexis because he knows a lot about the rail plans. Really no need to blow up like that.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
City-of-Platinum no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2014, 04:30 AM   #4979
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 805

Quote:
Originally Posted by City-of-Platinum View Post
I was talking about dc-nyc, and I asked Nexis.
I'm not soley talking about you, I'm talking about a whole bunch of people who think the Acela only goes 80 mph
__________________
High speed rail=real energy independence!

A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. Itís where the rich use public transportation

Feel The Bern #2016

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2014, 04:31 AM   #4980
City-of-Platinum
BANNED
 
City-of-Platinum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 141

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
I'm not soley talking about you, I'm talking about a whole bunch of people who think the Acela only goes 80 mph
Average speed is what really matters. It only reaches 150 for a very short time. I'd prefer a slower train but with a higher average speed for the whole track lenght.

It is medium speed rail in my book, like what England has on it's main lines. Similar average speed, although I think England is faster.

If you put the TGV on a line with so many stops that it's average speed was around 80, you wouldn't call it a HSR line. I don't care if the engine can do it or if the tracks are HSR quality, the service isn't HSR. Between Boston and Providence isn't even HSR average wise
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
City-of-Platinum no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
amtrak, desertxpress, fly california, high speed rail, northeast corridor, texas triangle, united states

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium