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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 27th, 2014, 08:48 AM   #5161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal_Escapee View Post
68 Billions!!! And to have it ready in 14 years????

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Old December 27th, 2014, 10:19 AM   #5162
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Imagine how many interstate highways the US would have had now if people in the previous decades thought like that.

"2.4 billion for a 12.2 mile stretch of I-5!!! And to have it ready in 7 years???"

Probably around 0
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Old December 27th, 2014, 07:02 PM   #5163
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As comparison. The osaka tokyo maglev is estimated to cost 74 billion $USD and is about 500km.

The initial 285km Tokyo-Nagoya segment will cost $US 38 billion. It's being privately built so they obviously feel they can make a profit and pay off the line costs.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 07:23 PM   #5164
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Originally Posted by gippas View Post

Imagine how many interstate highways the US would have had now if people in the previous decades thought like that.

"2.4 billion for a 12.2 mile stretch of I-5!!! And to have it ready in 7 years???"

Probably around 0
It is indeed quite entertaining how strong the double measurement is in the US when it comes to high speed rail vs interstate / long distance road corridors. While I don't doubt that also the latter was contested at its time the opposition was never as fierce and fundamental as against high speed rail, for no apparent rational reason.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 12:44 AM   #5165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayOOfoshO View Post
68 Billions!!! And to have it ready in 14 years????

It's such a shame that there are so many politically backwards reactionaries and NIMBYS living in the central valley whom apparently only understand how to yell "boondoggle" and "Moonbeam Brown". Honestly, I do love my country, but I'm scared, and ashamed of it at the same time. That is, scared of the fact that half of the country votes for a party that pretty much does anything for big oil, even coming up with BS arguments against things like HSR.

Furthermore, ever since I first traveled by train in Europe, I have wished that the U.S. could actually could actually continue to be the great nation that we used to be and not stuck in some 1950s car land suburban hell. We need to see the U.S. actually move forward, and the fact that we have virtually no true HSR while the more civilized parts of the world span the globe with truly 21st century environmentally friendly High-Speed rail networks. Honestly, I remember being so excited when I first heard about the CAHSR plan a Few Years back, literally only a week after cruising some 180 mph on the Euro-star in France. However, I am horrified by the backwardness of the fact that there is so much opposition amongst the far-right in the nation for the project to simply move forward. It disgusts me that all the right simply cares about is that the thing is going to raise taxes while they simply ignore the benefits of having the U.S. finally catch up to the rest of the world, let alone the environmental, and traffic benefits from the project.

Over the past couple of years, I have watched the project only to cringe so much at how easy it is for the reactionaries, even in a forward thinking state like California to to Hack away at CAHSR, throwing up constant lawsuits, and worst of all, the temporarily derailing Lawsuit from November 2013, and yet after throwing up so many roadblocks, the right attempts to drag more people down to their own reactionary level, by blaming the slowness of the project on "inefficiencies" rather than their own lawsuits (kinda like if somebody torched your house, and blamed it on the fact that the house was wooden, and you weren't there to stop them). Honestly, at this time a year ago, I really had began to give up entirely on CAHSR.

However, I am so excited that the project has come out of the dark, simply passing the reactionaries by and defeating them, as first Jerry Brown was able to find new ways to fund the project, and then the miracle: the 10 billion dollar bonds were re-authorized. Since July, I have been ecstatic to see the project only pick up steam, first as the non right wing articles became more positive and hopeful about the project, to the point where its path through Fresno was finally cleared, to Gov. Jerry Brown heavily defeating his anti HSR opponent (and being tho only Democrat to defeat his opponent as much as the polls predicted), and finally;and finally and most recently, to the future, in which in less than two weeks, the project does what I have been dreaming it will do for the past few years, go beyond the 3d renderings, and ideas designs, and theories; to break ground, and become a reality. I am with out words, and hope that this becomes the turning point for HSR in America. Ladies and Gentlemen, I close my rant on California High Speed Rail.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #5166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
It's such a shame that there are so many politically backwards reactionaries and NIMBYS living in the central valley whom apparently only understand how to yell "boondoggle" and "Moonbeam Brown". Honestly, I do love my country, but I'm scared, and ashamed of it at the same time. That is, scared of the fact that half of the country votes for a party that pretty much does anything for big oil, even coming up with BS arguments against things like HSR.

Furthermore, ever since I first traveled by train in Europe, I have wished that the U.S. could actually could actually continue to be the great nation that we used to be and not stuck in some 1950s car land suburban hell. We need to see the U.S. actually move forward, and the fact that we have virtually no true HSR while the more civilized parts of the world span the globe with truly 21st century environmentally friendly High-Speed rail networks. Honestly, I remember being so excited when I first heard about the CAHSR plan a Few Years back, literally only a week after cruising some 180 mph on the Euro-star in France. However, I am horrified by the backwardness of the fact that there is so much opposition amongst the far-right in the nation for the project to simply move forward. It disgusts me that all the right simply cares about is that the thing is going to raise taxes while they simply ignore the benefits of having the U.S. finally catch up to the rest of the world, let alone the environmental, and traffic benefits from the project.

Over the past couple of years, I have the project only to cringe so much at how easy it is for the reactionaries, even in a forward thinking state like California to to Hack away at CAHSR, throwing up constant lawsuits, and worst of all, the temporarily derailing Lawsuit from November 2013, and yet after throwing up so many roadblocks, the right attempts to drag more people down to their own reactionary level, by blaming the slowness of the project on "inefficiencies" rather than their own lawsuits (kinda like if somebody torched your house, and blamed it on the fact that the house was wooden, and you weren't there to stop them. Honestly, at this time a year ago, I really had began to give up entirely on CAHSR.

However, I am so excited that the project has come out of the dark, simply passing the reactionaries by and defeating them, as first Jerry Brown was able to find new ways to fund the project, and then the miracle: the 10 billion dollar bonds were re-authorized. Since July, I have been ecstatic to see the project only pick up steam, first as the non right wing articles became more positive and hopeful about the project, to the point where its path through Fresno was finally cleared, to Gov. Jerry Brown heavily defeating his anti HSR opponent (and being tho only Democrat to defeat his opponent as much as the polls predicted), and finally;and finally and most recently, to the future, in which in less than two weeks, the project does what I have been dreaming it will do for the past few years, go beyond the 3d renderings, and ideas designs, and theories; to break ground, and become a reality. I am with out words, and hope that this becomes the turning point for HSR in America. Ladies and Gentlemen, I close my rant on California High Speed Rail.
Get off the democrat/republican nonsense, they both are terrible to me.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 11:46 PM   #5167
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Please get off the politics nonsense. It's quite terrible to me.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 02:08 AM   #5168
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Sorry, I try to avoid it here, but in all honesty HSR has kinda become one of those polarizing and political issues (after all it requires tons of funding), and furthermore, I'm just sick of people attempting to call it, or any good project a "boondoggle" or "communism/big government on rails". I had a feeling some people on here probably preferred no politics, so I at least tried to avoid using the word "republican", or "conservative", or the infamous "t" word when complaining, about the oposition, and plus I do understand that there are a few on the right who are sensible enough to support HSR (ex. Ray Lahood) even if the rest of the "right" might not be so HSR friendly. Sorry, I really cant stand any of the "b" word infiltrating the conversation here. It drives me insane how one little word can galvanize so much opposition to a project, but I'll leave it at that.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 02:43 PM   #5169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
It's such a shame that there are so many politically backwards reactionaries and NIMBYS living in the central valley whom apparently only understand how to yell "boondoggle" and "Moonbeam Brown". Honestly, I do love my country, but I'm scared, and ashamed of it at the same time. That is, scared of the fact that half of the country votes for a party that pretty much does anything for big oil, even coming up with BS arguments against things like HSR.

Furthermore, ever since I first traveled by train in Europe, I have wished that the U.S. could actually could actually continue to be the great nation that we used to be and not stuck in some 1950s car land suburban hell. We need to see the U.S. actually move forward, and the fact that we have virtually no true HSR while the more civilized parts of the world span the globe with truly 21st century environmentally friendly High-Speed rail networks. Honestly, I remember being so excited when I first heard about the CAHSR plan a Few Years back, literally only a week after cruising some 180 mph on the Euro-star in France. However, I am horrified by the backwardness of the fact that there is so much opposition amongst the far-right in the nation for the project to simply move forward. It disgusts me that all the right simply cares about is that the thing is going to raise taxes while they simply ignore the benefits of having the U.S. finally catch up to the rest of the world, let alone the environmental, and traffic benefits from the project.

Over the past couple of years, I have watched the project only to cringe so much at how easy it is for the reactionaries, even in a forward thinking state like California to to Hack away at CAHSR, throwing up constant lawsuits, and worst of all, the temporarily derailing Lawsuit from November 2013, and yet after throwing up so many roadblocks, the right attempts to drag more people down to their own reactionary level, by blaming the slowness of the project on "inefficiencies" rather than their own lawsuits (kinda like if somebody torched your house, and blamed it on the fact that the house was wooden, and you weren't there to stop them). Honestly, at this time a year ago, I really had began to give up entirely on CAHSR.

However, I am so excited that the project has come out of the dark, simply passing the reactionaries by and defeating them, as first Jerry Brown was able to find new ways to fund the project, and then the miracle: the 10 billion dollar bonds were re-authorized. Since July, I have been ecstatic to see the project only pick up steam, first as the non right wing articles became more positive and hopeful about the project, to the point where its path through Fresno was finally cleared, to Gov. Jerry Brown heavily defeating his anti HSR opponent (and being tho only Democrat to defeat his opponent as much as the polls predicted), and finally;and finally and most recently, to the future, in which in less than two weeks, the project does what I have been dreaming it will do for the past few years, go beyond the 3d renderings, and ideas designs, and theories; to break ground, and become a reality. I am with out words, and hope that this becomes the turning point for HSR in America. Ladies and Gentlemen, I close my rant on California High Speed Rail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Sorry, I try to avoid it here, but in all honesty HSR has kinda become one of those polarizing and political issues (after all it requires tons of funding), and furthermore, I'm just sick of people attempting to call it, or any good project a "boondoggle" or "communism/big government on rails". I had a feeling some people on here probably preferred no politics, so I at least tried to avoid using the word "republican", or "conservative", or the infamous "t" word when complaining, about the oposition, and plus I do understand that there are a few on the right who are sensible enough to support HSR (ex. Ray Lahood) even if the rest of the "right" might not be so HSR friendly. Sorry, I really cant stand any of the "b" word infiltrating the conversation here. It drives me insane how one little word can galvanize so much opposition to a project, but I'll leave it at that.
EXCUSE ME!! YOUR LANGUAGE IS OFFENSIVE

"politically backwards reactionaries and NIMBYS" if this part of your post is referring to my comment please withdraw it or I will contact the administrator.

FYI:

1) I have a very international background and among the places I lived, I grew up in Italy (living there for 14 years) and have traveled in every country in Europe by train/airplane/bus so please spare me the lecture on having been in Europe and having seen who knows what like you're some kind of Marco Polo possessing some wisdom others can't have. And by the way, Europe has the trains and infrastructure but look what happened in my instances when they built their train networks: they started at x cost per mile and by the time it was being built magically costs went up. It happens a lot and it is a possibility it'll happen in California too.

2) Regardless, opposing a public project based on estimated cost and benefit doesn't make me any of the things you said, which are offensive. And by the way I have a degree in Economics from one of the highest ranked colleges in the country. Why does opposing any public project automatically make someone who is against progress? Or a backwards person? I am of the opinion that California does not have the geography to justify this project (by the way a place where a similar project would make sense is Texas but this is another topic).

You are the one who is backwards when you write a post like the one you have written. You are the one who brings shame to your country when you produce the kinds of insults you have written in your post. Be proud of being an American and be proud about the fact that someone can disagree with you and when that happens do argue with manners instead of jumping to your rants.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 04:00 PM   #5170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayOOfoshO View Post
I am of the opinion that California does not have the geography to justify this project (by the way a place where a similar project would make sense is Texas but this is another topic).
Interestingly enough the distance between LA and San Francisco metro is similar to the one between Paris and Lyon, Barcelona and Madrid and (one that you are undoubtly very familiar with) Rome and Milan. Some of the most succesful and frequented High Speed Rail corridors in Europe. Even the in-between (which is not that important for HSR) is not bad as Fresno has similar population to Florence and HSR will also benefit Sacramento.

As for the possible cost overruns, while it is true that these have occured in many projects in Europe, it has been known to happen also a lot in other types of infrastructure projects like roads, damns etc. That's not a reason not to build any infrastructure though, just incentive to make its creation more transparent and accountable.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 04:31 PM   #5171
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Indeed Barcelona-Madrid is almost the same distance as LA-SF via Fresno. One can reasonably oppose public infrastructure project on the grounds of feasibility (not an issue here), costs or economic benefits. Clearly not everything someone has proposed needs to be built. However I lose all respect for people who do so if they instead start with ideological shouting about communists, freeloaders, train to nowhere etc.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 07:07 PM   #5172
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Originally Posted by skyscraperhighrise View Post
Get off the democrat/republican nonsense, they both are terrible to me.
As if being a Libertarian somehow makes you any better.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 08:40 PM   #5173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayOOfoshO View Post
2) Regardless, opposing a public project based on estimated cost and benefit doesn't make me any of the things you said, which are offensive. And by the way I have a degree in Economics from one of the highest ranked colleges in the country. Why does opposing any public project automatically make someone who is against progress? Or a backwards person? I am of the opinion that California does not have the geography to justify this project (by the way a place where a similar project would make sense is Texas but this is another topic).
Given your awesome level of education you are surely aware that many countries which feature extensive high speed rail networks have an at least as if not more challenging geography than California.

A corridor of that length between such huge metropolitan areas is almost a model case of high speed rail. But of course, what is feasible all around the world doesn't make sense in the US. Of course high speed rail must not be an isolated project but needs to be embedded in local transit plans but transit expansion is an ongoing project in both metropolitan areas.

I am fairly convinced that if your calculations and strict criteria had been applied to the interstate network the US wouldn't have one nowadays, or a drastically reduced one.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 09:53 PM   #5174
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As if being a Libertarian somehow makes you any better.
it's better than the two headed one party dicatorship that you remember.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 01:27 AM   #5175
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Honestly, getting back to the upset responder. I have seen plenty of civil people in the comment sections of places like citylab use the word "reactionary" to describe those who are stuck in the fifties on the issue and believe that every mass transit project is some kind of boondoggle.

Furthermore, I had no Idea that "NIMBY" was such a bad word. I've seen plenty of people use it in a more direct context, and plenty of times in articles and books from well renowned places. Furthermore, the lawsuit which virtually derailed the entire project for an entire year was almost the classic example of NIMBYism: some pissed off farmers who were losing maybe 2% of their land which will be compensated wanted to derail the entire project because of it.

Also, I emphasize the use of the word NIMBY as it really upsets me how in this country it is A-OK to bulldoze exponentially more properties and Dense Historic Communities in the way of Highways which promote sprawl, yet when we finally realize we have been doing it all wrong these last few years, suddenly NIMBYism is a much more serious issue. Same thing goes for cost.

Furthermore, I don't think it takes more than 10 years of living in Eurpe to realize that there is any kind of Dilemma of good transit, etc in this country.

US "High Speed Rail"


Europe High Speed Rail


Even 60 minutes spend a whole section on Rail, and HSR in their recent, America's declining infrastructure edition. So I think that actually having HSR in this nation would be an end to justify the means of the project even if it ends up being 200 billion dollars (I'm concerned about more than just the money here).

Also, One those I already disagreed with politically suddenly attack my non political interests and opinions (I.E. HSR). It drives me insane. And I have seen Anti-HSR. BS on the Cover of significant political magazines (Breitbart, if I recall).

Furthermore, you accuse me of being un patriotic, but these day's that's especially hard to be these days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMqcLUqYqrs
(while this is from a TV show, and he does drop the F bomb once in it, he makes a great point (other than his mute point on "liberals")

Honestly, I do love my country, and wish to be proud of it, but I'm worried for it too. Also, I have the sense not to be a blind patriot, and to realize that when you mention to be grateful about the fact that I have the freedom to post what I want, yet currently, there are so many countries around the word with BOTH freedom, and what I wish America Had. As I may reiterate myself, I LOVE this Country, and I wish to help it change for the better, and for us to stop being some nation out of a bad 1950s sitcom. If I actually hated the country, I would've boarded the First plane to Paris, learned French, and lived in a culture that I find to be much better than ours at the present. However if you want to talk about this from a historic standpoint, I believe that America is truly best at making those big investments and improvements similar to HSR that awe and inspire generations to come, and it upsets me to see the country I love simply fall behind nations like China and Turkey as we fidget over the cost.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 03:00 AM   #5176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gippas View Post
Interestingly enough the distance between LA and San Francisco metro is similar to the one between Paris and Lyon, Barcelona and Madrid and (one that you are undoubtly very familiar with) Rome and Milan. Some of the most succesful and frequented High Speed Rail corridors in Europe. Even the in-between (which is not that important for HSR) is not bad as Fresno has similar population to Florence and HSR will also benefit Sacramento.

As for the possible cost overruns, while it is true that these have occured in many projects in Europe, it has been known to happen also a lot in other types of infrastructure projects like roads, damns etc. That's not a reason not to build any infrastructure though, just incentive to make its creation more transparent and accountable.
You point to Italy as an example of why it could be done. I point to Italy as exactly why it shouldn't be done.

1) Look at their cost overruns. They started with x per mile, they ended up with x*2 per mile. And just because it happens in many other cases, it doesn't mean we should accept it here too.

2) Italy actually had a previously developed rail network e.g. you get off in Milan, you jump on a different train and can go to virtually any minor city. California does not have that.

3) I understand the distance between LA-SF is similar as other European cases. But it is extremely difficult to build a track between the two cities in areas like the SF peninsula. The same goes for the LA-SD track which will later be developed. You have to literally go through cities, mountains, or in some cases around them, which is all extremely expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Indeed Barcelona-Madrid is almost the same distance as LA-SF via Fresno. One can reasonably oppose public infrastructure project on the grounds of feasibility (not an issue here), costs or economic benefits. Clearly not everything someone has proposed needs to be built.
Answered above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
However I lose all respect for people who do so if they instead start with ideological shouting about communists, freeloaders, train to nowhere etc.
Have I done that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Given your awesome level of education you are surely aware that many countries which feature extensive high speed rail networks have an at least as if not more challenging geography than California.

A corridor of that length between such huge metropolitan areas is almost a model case of high speed rail. But of course, what is feasible all around the world doesn't make sense in the US. Of course high speed rail must not be an isolated project but needs to be embedded in local transit plans but transit expansion is an ongoing project in both metropolitan areas.

I am fairly convinced that if your calculations and strict criteria had been applied to the interstate network the US wouldn't have one nowadays, or a drastically reduced one.
Your sarcasm is unnecessary. Again, why can't people argue with respect? I raise a flag about a public project, and this is how you reply.

This analogy with the US highway system or other infrastructure projects doesn't hold. Just because some other project has been approved, it doesn't mean we should be in favor of this one. And by the way comparing this project with the US interstate highway system is like comparing oranges with apples. Costs are different, and don't forget you can get off the highway and "connect" to any road and go wherever you want. You can't do that with trains in California, unless you develop the network even more of course, but that doesn't make sense due to population density (except in a few cases of course).
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Old December 30th, 2014, 03:15 AM   #5177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Honestly, getting back to the upset responder. I have seen plenty of civil people in the comment sections of places like citylab use the word "reactionary" to describe those who are stuck in the fifties on the issue and believe that every mass transit project is some kind of boondoggle.
Oh ok that makes perfect sense! Others have done it, and since you believe they are "perfectly civil" then it makes sense to do it here too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Furthermore, I had no Idea that "NIMBY" was such a bad word. I've seen plenty of people use it in a more direct context, and plenty of times in articles and books from well renowned places. Furthermore, the lawsuit which virtually derailed the entire project for an entire year was almost the classic example of NIMBYism: some pissed off farmers who were losing maybe 2% of their land which will be compensated wanted to derail the entire project because of it.
You used the term to address my comment. It is insulting to me to use that term in this context because you are using it to label me with something based on the fact that I disagree with your ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Also, I emphasize the use of the word NIMBY as it really upsets me how in this country it is A-OK to bulldoze exponentially more properties and Dense Historic Communities in the way of Highways which promote sprawl, yet when we finally realize we have been doing it all wrong these last few years, suddenly NIMBYism is a much more serious issue. Same thing goes for cost.
Irrelevant

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Furthermore, I don't think it takes more than 10 years of living in Eurpe to realize that there is any kind of Dilemma of good transit, etc in this country.
Great, but can we afford to address this "dilemma" with a $68 billion train?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
US "High Speed Rail"


Europe High Speed Rail


Even 60 minutes spend a whole section on Rail, and HSR in their recent, America's declining infrastructure edition. So I think that actually having HSR in this nation would be an end to justify the means of the project even if it ends up being 200 billion dollars (I'm concerned about more than just the money here).

Also, One those I already disagreed with politically suddenly attack my non political interests and opinions (I.E. HSR). It drives me insane. And I have seen Anti-HSR. BS on the Cover of significant political magazines (Breitbart, if I recall).

Furthermore, you accuse me of being un patriotic, but these day's that's especially hard to be these days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMqcLUqYqrs
(while this is from a TV show, and he does drop the F bomb once in it, he makes a great point (other than his mute point on "liberals")

Honestly, I do love my country, but I'm worried fir it too. Also, I have the sense not to be a blind patriot, and to realize that when you mention to be grateful about the fact that I have the freedom to post what I want, yet currently, there are so many countries around the word with BOTH freedom, and what I wish America Had. As I may reiterate myself, I LOVE this Country, and I wish to help it change for the better, and for us to stop being some nation out of a bad 1950s sitcom. If I actually hated the country, I would've boarded the First plane to Paris, learned French, and lived in a culture that I find to be much better than ours at the present. However if you want to talk about this from a historic standpoint, I believe that America is truly best at making those big investments and improvements similar to HSR that awe and inspire generations to come, and it upsets me to see the country I love simply fall behind nations like China and Turkey as we fidget over the cost.
Again, you are replying to things I didn't say. I didn't say you hate the US. I said you should be proud to live here and not be ashamed if someone opposes your ideas or HSR doesn't get built. You should accept that some people will disagree with you and that is also part of being in the US.

All those other countries are capable of building "high speed" trains with public money. But in none of those countries except the US a company like Uber, Lyft, etc. could have grown and disrupted the taxi business. Before you all accuse of me doing so, I am not saying Uber will substitute HSR. But I am saying the idea of progress for one country being represented by building HSR is bogus. A train running at 250 km/h is not progress.

I wouldn't have that big of a problem in HSR. I don't oppose the idea of a fast train in itself. I am not against it. What I am against is the massive amounts of public money that is needed for this project. I am convinced it is not worth it and I am scared by the amount of public debt this country has reached. I don't think it's sustainable at this pace. This is why I am against it.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 04:34 AM   #5178
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Originally Posted by skyscraperhighrise View Post
it's better than the two headed one party dicatorship that you remember.
Different strokes for different folks I guess. Anyway, this section is about HSR and not political theory.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 04:45 AM   #5179
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Originally Posted by jayOOfoshO View Post
You point to Italy as an example of why it could be done. I point to Italy as exactly why it shouldn't be done.

1) Look at their cost overruns. They started with x per mile, they ended up with x*2 per mile. And just because it happens in many other cases, it doesn't mean we should accept it here too.
This happens nowadays with ALL types of civil works projects in ALL countries.

Should we not replace the Bay Bridge because it needs to be quake-proof? Should we not replace the highways in Seattle? Should Boeing have dropped the 787? Should they have stopped construction on WTC 1?

Cost overruns are a thing. It's no more a problem for HSR than any other modern endeavor, government OR private. In the overwhelming majority of cases, these projects make up the difference over time and more than repay the investment.

Quote:
2) Italy actually had a previously developed rail network e.g. you get off in Milan, you jump on a different train and can go to virtually any minor city. California does not have that.
There are existing and expanding metropolitan rail services in San Francisco, San Jose, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Sacramento. These services cover much of the Southern and Central parts of the state, supplemented by buses. Could they be bigger? Yes. But they do exist to a reasonable degree.

Quote:
3) I understand the distance between LA-SF is similar as other European cases. But it is extremely difficult to build a track between the two cities in areas like the SF peninsula. The same goes for the LA-SD track which will later be developed. You have to literally go through cities, mountains, or in some cases around them, which is all extremely expensive.
Britain, Switzerland, and Japan all face all of the same obstacles. Japan has spent the last 50 years building HSR, and it crosses extremely rugged terrain, pierces MUCH denser cities, and deals with earthquakes just like in California.

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This analogy with the US highway system or other infrastructure projects doesn't hold.
How so? Please clarify this.

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Just because some other project has been approved, it doesn't mean we should be in favor of this one.
I agree that blind approval is a bad thing, but numerous and repeated studies over multiple decades have shown an increasingly favorable economic outlook for HSR in multiple corridors.

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And by the way comparing this project with the US interstate highway system is like comparing oranges with apples.
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Costs are different,
Environmental costs are lower for HSR.

Right of Way costs are lower for HSR (much narrower land footprint).

Per rider costs are lower for HSR (trains carry more people per mile OR per dollar).

HSR, being faster, will also entice riders from airplanes, freeing capacity at airports and therefore enabling these agencies to avoid building expensive runway and terminal expansions-which can cost just as much as HSR.

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and don't forget you can get off the highway and "connect" to any road and go wherever you want.
This is reasonably true (leaving aside traffic jams and rough road conditions not suitable for all vehicles).

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You can't do that with trains in California, unless you develop the network even more of course,
You CAN access most of the most heavily developed and economically important areas by public transportation. Park and Ride, combined Uber and CarShare can help people who don't necessarily have these options.

Quote:
but that doesn't make sense due to population density (except in a few cases of course).
California's HSR corridor has a higher population density than the Paris-Lyon TGV (opened in 1983 and still a benchmark for HSR success), or most of the other HSR lines in Europe.

Furthermore, HSR is designed to help encourage development with new high density projects clustered around the stations. Should we inhibit ourselves based strictly on what exists today and not plan for the future at all?

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All those other countries are capable of building "high speed" trains with public money.
Many of those countries (Japan 1964) were in worse economic states when they started building than the US currently is in.

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But in none of those countries except the US a company like Uber, Lyft, etc. could have grown and disrupted the taxi business.
Similar businesses started in Norway roughly contemporaneously, and were derived from 30 years of bicycle sharing businesses that had flourished in Europe.

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Before you all accuse of me doing so, I am not saying Uber will substitute HSR. But I am saying the idea of progress for one country being represented by building HSR is bogus. A train running at 250 km/h is not progress.
If Uber does not substitute HSR, what will? Because there is not sufficient traffic capacity on that corridor today, and traffic is forecast to grow significantly in the years to come.

Will we build more highways? We would need much more land, and the noise and environmental pollution would lower living standards, depressing property values and increasing mitigation costs.

Will we build more airports? The same problems occur, and jets need oil, which is likely to increase in price.

This not just about creating a status symbol of "progress" for the US (though that IS a pleasant side effect). This is about a legitimate need for a transportation solution.

The trains in planning for California are expected to do 350-400 kph, well above 250. This creates a new transportation option that is higher-capacity (and therefore cheaper per-passenger) while remaining time-competitive with airlines. This opens new transportation options that did not previously exist in California, leveraging additional capacity on roads and airports. How does that NOT represent progress and advancement.

And if a massive improvement in transportation doesn't count as progress, what does? Many countries DO consider it to represent progress. 23 currently have HSR operating and 36 have it in planning or construction.

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I wouldn't have that big of a problem in HSR. I don't oppose the idea of a fast train in itself. I am not against it.
Very good. I am glad that we have common ground.

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What I am against is the massive amounts of public money that is needed for this project.
If the public does not finance it, who will? Private attempts fell through due to poor planning and communication and inferior technology in previous generations (10-20 years ago). This scared off private investors.

What will we do if HSR isn't built? The lack of capacity on the existing transportation network in the region will soon create a noticeable damper on the California economy. Businesses will be hurt if people and cargo can not move freely.

We know this from past experience. A major infrastructure project MUST be done in order to provide room for economic growth. HSR was selected as the most economically viable option for this corridor.

Quote:
I am convinced it is not worth it and I am scared by the amount of public debt this country has reached.
Bear in mind that California achieved MASSIVE growth as the result of a Federally-funded rail project-the Transcontinental Railroad. THAT was accomplished at the height and aftermath of the Civil War, with the US burdened by a HUGE debt and the need for massive reconstruction throughout the Southern US.

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I don't think it's sustainable at this pace. This is why I am against it.
It has been proven numerous times that massive infrastructure projects breed massive returns on investment. I point to the Transcontinental Railroad, Hetch Hetchy Aqueduct, the Interstate Highway System, and the Light Rail Transit. All of these have been successful, and generally considered "necessary" after the fact.

Simply dismissing HSR based on the high initial price tag creates the risk of becoming "penny-wise, pound-foolish". The ultimate measuring stick of the project must be the economic cost-benefit ratio. If the ultimate economic benefits outweigh the costs, then it is worthwhile and should be pursued.

The direct (jobs building the line and equipment, freed capacity) and indirect (HSR-inspired development, environmental improvements, even prestige) benefits have been determined through exhaustive and repeated studies to outweigh even the most inflated current cost estimates by a significant margin.

Even during the depths of the Great Depression, the TVA brought electricity to the rural South. Today, those areas are providing economic contributions to the country.

Other countries have proceeded with major projects even while impoverished, and those projects have helped to improve their economic states. Japan built the first bullet trains while still pulling itself out of a total collapse from World War II. Their situation was MUCH worse (comparatively speaking) then ours is. They borrowed heavily to finance the line. But they were able to FULLY repay the loans within 15 years. The economic outlooks for California are similarly optimistic about HSR's ability to repay its costs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope that I have avoided some of the bickering, arguing, and politicization that have plagued this thread today and simply presented facts.

Please provide evidence and reasons why you feel the way you do in response to this post. If you can present a reasonable, well-argued, well-backed, fact-based argument against HSR, please feel free to do so.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 05:54 AM   #5180
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Originally Posted by jayOOfoshO View Post
Oh ok that makes perfect sense! Others have done it, and since you believe they are "perfectly civil" then it makes sense to do it here too.

>> We're just going to have to disagree here I fail to see how this does not make sense to you

You used the term to address my comment. It is insulting to me to use that term in this context because you are using it to label me with something based on the fact that I disagree with your ideas.

>> I am NOT calling YOU SPECIFICALLY, but rather the opposition as a whole (whom my complaint was targeted at)

Irrelevant

>> How is this irrelevant, i think it's completely unfair that we screwed up the country from an urban planning standpoint for 50 years, and now that we want to improve it everything we do is a "boondoggle". Furthermore, how come those on the right (NOT SPECIFICALLY YOU) such as Scott Walker claim that these projects are "boondoggles" while spending just as much on highways that are unneeded?

Great, but can we afford to address this "dilemma" with a $68 billion train?

>> Yes We can, If we can afford to waste trillions on useless wars in the middle east, than we can afford something which costs a fraction and helps us MUCH more in the long run.

Again, you are replying to things I didn't say. I didn't say you hate the US. I said you should be proud to live here and not be ashamed if someone opposes your ideas or HSR doesn't get built. You should accept that some people will disagree with you and that is also part of being in the US.

>>Perhaps I misread, but still, you were essentially criticizing my opinion of the U.S. and I'm just going to leave that at already addressed. Sure it's great to have people of the opposite opinion. Just not when the opposing opinion is something 100% insane.

All those other countries are capable of building "high speed" trains with public money. But in none of those countries except the US a company like Uber, Lyft, etc. could have grown and disrupted the taxi business. Before you all accuse of me doing so, I am not saying Uber will substitute HSR. But I am saying the idea of progress for one country being represented by building HSR is bogus. A train running at 250 km/h is not progress.

>>How is a train not going 250KMPH an hour not progress? Please explain. Furthermore, companies like Uber still don't address the countless environmental problems, and urban planning problems that mass transit solves (they still promote sprawl), and plus Uber is already having it's own troubles so quickly.

I wouldn't have that big of a problem in HSR. I don't oppose the idea of a fast train in itself. I am not against it. What I am against is the massive amounts of public money that is needed for this project. I am convinced it is not worth it and I am scared by the amount of public debt this country has reached. I don't think it's sustainable at this pace. This is why I am against it.

>> As everybody on this forum previously mentioned, STOP looking at the small short term picture here, because the long term benefits exceed the costs financially, from an urban planning standpoint, from a congestion standpoint, from a job creation standpoint, let alone an environmental standpoint (though I'm assuming spending a lot to avoid peak oil, and climate change are things you care little about, or you disagree with 97% of the scientific consensus on (as much of the opposition falls into that boat) One again, feel free to correct me If I'm wrong, and you are actually concerned about any of this).
All of the points are addressed above.
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Last edited by CNB30; December 30th, 2014 at 06:04 AM.
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