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Old April 25th, 2015, 10:24 PM   #5541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuaanAcosta View Post
sorry, but the Maglev is a train...
No need to feel sorry about it To make a long story shorter, AFAIAC the 'French' (Alstom?) hold the high speed record for trains and will be beaten when another steel on steel train beats that speed. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE JAPAN AND MAGLEV...

Meanwhile in the US of gorgeous A.. did the CHSA already decide on a train provider and do Japanese producers make more sense seeing the earthquake experience Japan has with P-waves and stopping HSTs before earthquakes' secondary waves hit?
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Old April 26th, 2015, 01:26 AM   #5542
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No need to feel sorry about it To make a long story shorter, AFAIAC the 'French' (Alstom?) hold the high speed record for trains and will be beaten when another steel on steel train beats that speed. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE JAPAN AND MAGLEV...

Meanwhile in the US of gorgeous A.. did the CHSA already decide on a train provider and do Japanese producers make more sense seeing the earthquake experience Japan has with P-waves and stopping HSTs before earthquakes' secondary waves hit?
Bids are still coming in...Judging from information that's been provided over the last few months, it sounds like we probably won't get a shortlist until mid-summer (if they even decide to do that). Otherwise, we will probably hear their decision in the fall or early next year.

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So Kawasaki is Building a train that looks like the E7/W7 Series Shinkansen but has the Speed capabilities of the N700 or E5/E6? I think I like this train!
It is interesting...given how long they've been developing, I hadn't heard about it before.
Wonder just how much lighter it is than comparable rolling stock.
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Old April 26th, 2015, 04:12 PM   #5543
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UNITED STATES | High Speed Rail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoser_barcelona View Post
No need to feel sorry about it To make a long story shorter, AFAIAC the 'French' (Alstom?) hold the high speed record for trains and will be beaten when another steel on steel train beats that speed. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE JAPAN AND MAGLEV...

Alstom holds a record,no doubt. It's just not for the fastest train. Just like there are records for self-powered, steam-engined, fuel-electric, fastest on conventional (wood ballasted) track...

Don't get me wrong I love France, but it's splitting hairs not calling the L0 the fastest train.
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Old April 26th, 2015, 04:22 PM   #5544
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Don't fight in other people's turf this thread is neither about Maglev or Alstom. If you want to debate on those fact I suggest you two create a separate thread.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 05:21 AM   #5545
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TOKYO—When Prime Minister Shinzo Abe visits the U.S. this week, he will act as salesman-in-chief by marketing Japan’s high-speed rail system.

With the support of the government, Japanese companies are vying for chances to join three fast-train projects under consideration in the U.S. The three would link Los Angeles and San Francisco; Dallas and Houston; and New York and Washington with high-speed systems.

Exporting Japan’s bullet-train system, known as the Shinkansen, is an important element of Mr. Abe’s strategy to revive his nation’s economy. Winning contracts in the U.S. would help bolster Japan’s bid to expand business in other markets, particularly in Asia’s developing nations, and compete with rivals from China and Europe.

When he visits California as part of a weeklong tour that was to start Sunday, Mr. Abe is expected to deliver a speech seeking to persuade the state’s leadership of the advantages of the Japanese system, including its strong safety record, reliability and the availability of inexpensive financing, Japanese officials say.

The state broke ground in January on a high-speed link between Los Angeles and San Francisco—a signature project of Gov. Jerry Brown, with an estimated cost of $68 billion. But it has yet to choose a train supplier. At 559 kilometers, the distance between the two cities is similar to that of the popular Tokyo-Osaka route in Japan. There, the bullet train runs every five to 10 minutes. The trip takes 21/2 hours.

Mr. Abe also is expected to highlight the latest achievement of the magnetic levitation bullet train being developed by Central Japan Railway Co. The maglev train reached a record speed of 603 kilometers an hour) during a test run in Japan last Tuesday.

In a speech marking the 50th anniversary of the Shinkansen in October, Mr. Abe said he had proposed to President Barack Obama to roll out the maglev train in the northeastern U.S. as a symbol of bilateral cooperation. “If that happens, you could travel from Washington to Baltimore in 15 minutes, and to New York within less than an hour. What’s more, there would be very few delays,” Mr. Abe said, giving a boost to supporters of a high-speed rail proposal for the Northeast corridor.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/japanese...u-s-1430081956
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Old April 27th, 2015, 01:30 PM   #5546
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I know it's meant for propaganda purposes, but what nitwit made that info graph?
First when you state Tohoku Shinkansen, then use a photo of an actual train that runs there, like an E5,E6 or H5. Second the China trains have run faster in the past and could do so again effective immediately. Third, the Chuo maglev is intended to run at around 500 km/h, so either mention that speed or mention the actual maximums of the others correctly (TGV 575 km/h, China 487 km/h, JR East E5 360 km/h, Acela 266 km/h)
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Old April 27th, 2015, 02:49 PM   #5547
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While ridiculous, it's hardly meant for people like those who frequent here.

Plus in the end, 603 vs 500 km/h doesn't really matter as it's still leaps and bounds ahead of the others regardless.

I was more amused than angered by it, though the WSJ ought to have better standards than that.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 10:36 PM   #5548
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Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post

While ridiculous, it's hardly meant for people like those who frequent here.

Plus in the end, 603 vs 500 km/h doesn't really matter as it's still leaps and bounds ahead of the others regardless.

I was more amused than angered by it, though the WSJ ought to have better standards than that.
True. The infographic certainly raised my eyebrows. It seems to deliberately knock down the Chinese trainsets, putting them under French and Japanese transits. I DO think China was "overclocking" their trainsets to run at 350km/h prematurely before the accident in 2011, but it kind of reminded me of the top-speed wars a decade or so ago between Japan and France, except China seems to be the only one competing. They were trying to run before they walked and unfortunately, whether due to the fast speed of development or not, they had that accident in 2011. That being said, don't they have services that are regularly running at 320km/h or higher yet? Of note, it's also missing the German Maglev. Has Germany given up on promoting its maglev tech?

An interesting note about the Japanese Maglev. I know in other places, people like to compare some of the high-speed experimental test runs of conventionally-wheeled trainsets with the Maglev, but the reality is, I don't think we will see conventional wheeled trains running regularly at 400km/h any time soon. The energy losses and the wear on both track and wires are just too great to be practical. I just don't see super-highsped conventional train sets being viable until we see some alternative method of power delivery or substantial technology advances in things like acceleration, metallurgy, low-friction, noise, braking, and in the end COST. It's just not cost-effective to run these trains at those speeds for the relatively small benefits you gain due to the biggest overlooked flaw of high-speed conventional trains: SLOW ACCELERATION.

As a comparison:
The Yamanashi test track had trains that accelerated to 581km/h and decelerated to 0 in 18km. On the 42.8km test track the train comfortably maintained a top speed over 600km/h for 1.8km (10.8 seconds).

In a different way, the folly of "top speed" is illustrated well with the Shanghai Maglev. Despite reaching a 431km/h top speed and reaching that in just a couple of minutes, the track is not long enough to be the fastest point to point trains currently in commercial operation. It ends up running at an average speed of 249.5km/h. Slower than 5 other train segments. The fastest has a max speed of "only" 300km/h..

What chance does a conventional train have of super high speed running? The French train, though modified, short (3-cars long) and along a favorable section of track took over 40km to reach 500km/h when it was going for the record. It took over 70km to reach 581km/h on 140km of track. I imagine real-world acceleration is much lower than this on that section of track on which trains run at 320km/h.

NOTE: Don't take the earlier comments to be disparaging of Chinese trains/tech/etc. I hate it when people try to make the argument of it being stolen/copied German/Canadian/Japanese/French technology. China purchased the tech from a willing seller to provide a level-up base to work with and that the manufacturers knew what they were getting into when they signed the deal.
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Last edited by bluemeansgo; April 27th, 2015 at 10:44 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old April 28th, 2015, 12:20 AM   #5549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
True. The infographic certainly raised my eyebrows. It seems to deliberately knock down the Chinese trainsets, putting them under French and Japanese transits. I DO think China was "overclocking" their trainsets to run at 350km/h prematurely before the accident in 2011, but it kind of reminded me of the top-speed wars a decade or so ago between Japan and France, except China seems to be the only one competing. They were trying to run before they walked and unfortunately, whether due to the fast speed of development or not, they had that accident in 2011. That being said, don't they have services that are regularly running at 320km/h or higher yet? Of note, it's also missing the German Maglev. Has Germany given up on promoting its maglev tech?
I agree, the infograph is definitely misleading, not just for Chinese trains but for the others as well, because it pitted the Chuo Shinkansen's trail run maximum speed against the others' normal operation speed. You either compare all of their normal operating speed or all of their maximum tested speed, you don't mix match them.

As for CRH, right now there are no more 320km/h services, the maximum operating speed has been reduced to 300km/h. 350km/h service was pretty wide spread on newly constructed lines prior to 2011 though. Also after the cancellation of the Shanghai Maglev Longyang Rd Station to Hongqiao Airport extension as well as the Shanghai-Hangzhou line, I think the future of Siemens Transrapid isn't too bright.

A bit OT. The Wenzhou accident has nothing to do with speed or the maturity of technologies in China, it didn't even happen on a high speed line (200km/h passenger/freight mixed use line). It's a managerial thing, every piece of technology worked and stopped the train as designed, it's the human in the loop who manually overridden the system and caused the crash.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 02:13 AM   #5550
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A bit OT. The Wenzhou accident has nothing to do with speed or the maturity of technologies in China, it didn't even happen on a high speed line (200km/h passenger/freight mixed use line). It's a managerial thing, every piece of technology worked and stopped the train as designed, it's the human in the loop who manually overridden the system and caused the crash.

It did allow the authorities to save face though. It gave them a reason to reduce the speeds after they proved that they could run trains at 350km/h with thee best of them.

I suspect the real reason the trains run at 300km/h is quite simple. Noise and cost. The faster you go the more maintenance you require. Tickets in China are still relatively cheap to purchase and the market doesn't demand faster service.

Anyhow, back to US high speed rail, I thought all the bids for trains in California all had to be in by last December? And didn't they have to have a proven record according to the RFP? Why is this being announced now?

The Kawasaki efSet, while gorgeous, isn't in use any where yet. I thought they had submitted the n700-i which is designed to run at 330km/h which, intentionally I'm sure, just breaks into the 200mph barrier.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 01:48 PM   #5551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
The French train, though modified, short (3-cars long) and along a favorable section of track took over 40km to reach 500km/h when it was going for the record. It took over 70km to reach 581km/h on 140km of track.
In defence of SNCF: the train didn't need that distance to reach that speed, it had that track length available and they used it. They more or less knew in advance where the top speed was going to be reached, so they could have reduced the required length. Instead they chose to gradually increase the speed over the length available.
Having said that: Even if they would have started from a suitable starting position along the LGV it would have taken more track to accelerate to and brake from 575 km/h, then the Maglev needs.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 01:57 PM   #5552
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
The Kawasaki efSet, while gorgeous, isn't in use any where yet.
The efSet is just an international version of the Japanese domestic technology. It's basically the E2, E5, E6 and E7 put into the blender and the efSet came out.
Also note that Kawasaki was a contractor for both the 700T and CRH2C.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 02:37 PM   #5553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Anyhow, back to US high speed rail, I thought all the bids for trains in California all had to be in by last December? And didn't they have to have a proven record according to the RFP? Why is this being announced now?
I'm not sure...they haven't always been clear about this process.

Maybe the timeline shifted after Amtrak and CAHSRA decided to not attempt a joint procurement?
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Old April 28th, 2015, 03:14 PM   #5554
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
I know it's meant for propaganda purposes, but what nitwit made that info graph?
First when you state Tohoku Shinkansen, then use a photo of an actual train that runs there, like an E5,E6 or H5. Second the China trains have run faster in the past and could do so again effective immediately. Third, the Chuo maglev is intended to run at around 500 km/h, so either mention that speed or mention the actual maximums of the others correctly (TGV 575 km/h, China 487 km/h, JR East E5 360 km/h, Acela 266 km/h)
true, this is a very misleading graph, comparing the experimental speed in Japan with the operational speed in other countries
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Old April 28th, 2015, 03:21 PM   #5555
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
I agree, the infograph is definitely misleading, not just for Chinese trains but for the others as well, because it pitted the Chuo Shinkansen's trail run maximum speed against the others' normal operation speed. You either compare all of their normal operating speed or all of their maximum tested speed, you don't mix match them.

As for CRH, right now there are no more 320km/h services, the maximum operating speed has been reduced to 300km/h. 350km/h service was pretty wide spread on newly constructed lines prior to 2011 though. Also after the cancellation of the Shanghai Maglev Longyang Rd Station to Hongqiao Airport extension as well as the Shanghai-Hangzhou line, I think the future of Siemens Transrapid isn't too bright.

A bit OT. The Wenzhou accident has nothing to do with speed or the maturity of technologies in China, it didn't even happen on a high speed line (200km/h passenger/freight mixed use line). It's a managerial thing, every piece of technology worked and stopped the train as designed, it's the human in the loop who manually overridden the system and caused the crash.
I read an article which argues that when the speed is more than 320kph, the resistance from the air will be bigger than from the track, so 300kph might also be a consideration of cost
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Old April 28th, 2015, 05:29 PM   #5556
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I read an article which argues that when the speed is more than 320kph, the resistance from the air will be bigger than from the track, so 300kph might also be a consideration of cost
To my understanding this is actually only partially true under conditions that the trainset is at constant steady speed but that kind of condition is never the case in which you need to accelerate and decelerate all the time. It's during these time the rail and wheel are damaged the most.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 06:12 AM   #5557
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Japan Wants to Spend $5B on a D.C.-Baltimore Bullet Train

http://dc.curbed.com/archives/2015/0...shinkansen.php

http://dcinno.streetwise.co/2015/04/...-maglev-train/

https://drive.google.com/viewerng/vi...dFranchise.pdf

[posted this on the wrong thread first but I found the right one : i'm a noob]
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Old April 29th, 2015, 06:29 AM   #5558
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Old News....will never happen...silly investment on the part of the Japanese...
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Old April 29th, 2015, 08:59 AM   #5559
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Old News....will never happen...silly investment on the part of the Japanese...

Why is that? It would be a win even to get an airport pone for Japan. They need to prove the technology outside off japan and in the next 50 years the USA market has huge untapped potential.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 09:51 AM   #5560
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Why is that? It would be a win even to get an airport pone for Japan. They need to prove the technology outside off japan and in the next 50 years the USA market has huge untapped potential.
Its Washington to Baltimore....there really isn't a high enough demand to justify the cost of building a tunneled Maglev line. I don't buy the 5 billion $$ estimate....probably 20 billion or more. The Region would be better if Japan invested in regular HSR and Regional Rail. They should convince Amtrak & MARC to buy EMUs and invest in Electrification.
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