daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 30th, 2016, 01:58 AM   #6521
Tågälskaren
Tåg, för en bättre värld
 
Tågälskaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 8,374
Likes (Received): 753

Amtrack reveals America's 'bullet train': $2bn project will bring 186mph next generation trains to Washington, New York and Boston by 2021

It is a radical upgrade for America's train system - and brings 186mph trains to Amtrak's most popular route[...]
Tågälskaren no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 30th, 2016, 02:01 AM   #6522
Tågälskaren
Tåg, för en bättre värld
 
Tågälskaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 8,374
Likes (Received): 753

AMTRAK INVESTS $2.4 BILLION FOR NEXT-GEN HIGH-SPEED TRAINSETS AND INFRASTRUCTURE UPGRADES


New trainsets to enter service in 2021; Station upgrades and improvements for track capacity and ride quality among infrastructure upgrades[...]


Source: http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/u...ring-depot.jpg
__________________

jchernin, Atlante liked this post
Tågälskaren no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2016, 06:30 AM   #6523
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,050
Likes (Received): 1143



It is extremely hard to understand the strategy of Amtrack in this corridor, why in the hell they are changing trains after only 20 years of operation, when TGV's from the same manufacturer, Alsthom, are on operation passed 35 years. In fact Amtrack trains where built on the very late 90's and original Tgv's on the early 80's.

The contracts signed are done to reproduce the same error in the future. 15 years of maintenance are included, maybe they want to make a new world record and retire them after the original maintenance contract expires. In Spain the State owned company has increased the expected life of all the rolling stocks, which is what the common sense indicates.

Last edited by Rayancito; August 30th, 2016 at 06:53 AM.
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2016, 07:08 AM   #6524
Tower Dude
Registered User
 
Tower Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 76th Street Station
Posts: 1,044
Likes (Received): 593

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post


It is extremely hard to understand the strategy of Amtrack in this corridor, why in the hell they are changing trains after only 20 years of operation, when TGV's from the same manufacturer, Alsthom, are on operation passed 35 years. In fact Amtrack trains where built on the very late 90's and original Tgv's on the early 80's.

The contracts signed are done to reproduce the same error in the future. 15 years of maintenance are included, maybe they want to make a new world record and retire them after the original maintenance contract expires. In Spain the State owned company has increased the expected life of all the rolling stocks, which is what the common sense indicates.
Because this is it for high speed rail in the US. France has 10 LGVs and runs multiple services on them, the most Amtrak Runs is the Acela Express and the regional service. To keep maintain/expand ridership in this corridor Amtrak feels it is most cost effective to BUY a newer, more adaptable, and larger fleet of trains from Alstom and dump the leases on the old ones, which is held by Bombardier. Amtrak Currently doesn't own their High-Speed rolling stock while SNCF owns theirs and has been buying updated rolling stock continuously since the commencement of TGV service. Also because Americans have a penchant for shiny new things.
__________________

"Make no small plans they lack the magic to stir men's blood!" - Daniel Burnham

"The scale is Roman and will have to be sustained."
- Charles Follen McKim (In a letter to a friend concerning the design of Penn Station)
Tower Dude está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2016, 07:27 AM   #6525
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,050
Likes (Received): 1143



HST are usually (not allways) purchased to run on a specific line, all over the world, sometimes it happens that they are switched to another line, but it is not uncommon for trains to operate their lifetime in the same line. I mentioned the original TGV's because it is a good example, all over the world there are HST with life expectancy well above 20 years.

Regarding leasings or whatever is the actual ownership schema it comes back to the same, those leasings for sure meant that Bombardier (trains where built jointly by Bombardier and Alsthom, by the way) adjusted the price for 20 years, terrible business for Amtrack and beautiful for Bombardier. Amtrack may feel comfortable, but it made a terrible business and it seems that they will repeat the same crazy schema.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2016, 07:30 AM   #6526
SamuraiBlue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,232
Likes (Received): 195

Basically this article sums it all up.

http://www.realtransit.org/nec7.php

So regardless of how much money is invested in trainsets and/or signaling the root of the problem not having an exclusive right of way on NEC will always slowdown Accela Express no matter what AMTRAK does.
__________________
SamuraiBlue no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2016, 08:10 AM   #6527
Tower Dude
Registered User
 
Tower Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 76th Street Station
Posts: 1,044
Likes (Received): 593

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post


HST are usually (not allways) purchased to run on a specific line, all over the world, sometimes it happens that they are switched to another line, but it is not uncommon for trains to operate their lifetime in the same line. I mentioned the original TGV's because it is a good example, all over the world there are HST with life expectancy well above 20 years.

Regarding leasings or whatever is the actual ownership schema it comes back to the same, those leasings for sure meant that Bombardier (trains where built jointly by Bombardier and Alsthom, by the way) adjusted the price for 20 years, terrible business for Amtrack and beautiful for Bombardier. Amtrack may feel comfortable, but it made a terrible business and it seems that they will repeat the same crazy schema.
But what I am saying is that even though the Sud-Ests are still running they have introduced Duplexes to the Sud-Est route. Also it does not seems to be clear whether or not Amtrak is leasing the trains or not but the language in the press release indicates that from how Amtrak is taking out the loan to pay for the trains, unlike the original Acelas in part because of how successful they have been allowing for a steady stream of capital to help pay off the loan.
__________________

"Make no small plans they lack the magic to stir men's blood!" - Daniel Burnham

"The scale is Roman and will have to be sustained."
- Charles Follen McKim (In a letter to a friend concerning the design of Penn Station)

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Tower Dude está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2016, 03:57 PM   #6528
phoenixboi08
Registered User
 
phoenixboi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,550
Likes (Received): 798

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post


It is extremely hard to understand the strategy of Amtrack in this corridor, why in the hell they are changing trains after only 20 years of operation, when TGV's from the same manufacturer, Alsthom, are on operation passed 35 years. In fact Amtrack trains where built on the very late 90's and original Tgv's on the early 80's.

The contracts signed are done to reproduce the same error in the future. 15 years of maintenance are included, maybe they want to make a new world record and retire them after the original maintenance contract expires. In Spain the State owned company has increased the expected life of all the rolling stocks, which is what the common sense indicates.
Expense. Amtrak has stated they thought of simply updating the existing rolling stock, but they didn't have enough spare equipment to make it work, and it would have ended up being less economical than acquiring new trains.

You'll note the existing plans (linked below) indicate they originally planned to do so: expanding the existing fleet from 1-6-1 to 1-8-1 while acquiring only 12 sets, and then replacing the old Acelas with 32 new sets, in the middle of the next decade.

Then again, these numbers seem to have shifted quite a bit: they're acquiring 28 sets - rather than acquiring 12 and adding cars to the existing fleet - while the desired number of cars for 2020 and 2025 seemed to have been combined, for the purposes of this order. Nonetheless, it's clear that these trains are envisioned as being replaced around 2040 - when they think the most significant upgrades along the corridor will be complete. That may change, as well.

I would be skeptical that these Liberties wouldn't be put into service as Regionals or in another market. They'll retire them from the NEC, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be scrapped, right? I suppose what they do with the current Acelas may provide some insight (I'm not sure if they even own them or whether or not they belong to the vendor).

Also of note, the procurement of the original Acelas was kind of botched (though, I think there were two distinct orders: the latter of which had fewer issues). From what I gather: they are too wide - can't properly take advantage of tilting - and are too heavy among other issues. It's kind of a general necessity that they be replaced.

Even if they're not operating at 320kph as Samurai wants, they'll be able to improve operations (primarily by increasing speeds in some existing "slow zones" by being able to utilize tilting) and increase capacity, which are both obtainable goals. For now, I think they're focusing on fare/revenue-maximization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post


Amtrak: Vision for the NEC, 2012 Update Report pg. 22, Figure 22
__________________
MCRP '16

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
phoenixboi08 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2016, 10:22 PM   #6529
3737
Registered User
 
3737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Leiden
Posts: 1,402
Likes (Received): 1034

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post


It is extremely hard to understand the strategy of Amtrack in this corridor, why in the hell they are changing trains after only 20 years of operation, when TGV's from the same manufacturer, Alsthom, are on operation passed 35 years. In fact Amtrack trains where built on the very late 90's and original Tgv's on the early 80's.
The same has happened to the Shinkansen 500.
They've been build between 1995-1998 and after 2010 they've been downgraded to a slower service scraping a lot of the fleet even one driving cab has been preserved in a museum.

Link
__________________
3737 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 02:06 AM   #6530
zaphod
PRESIDENT OF SPACE
 
zaphod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,176
Likes (Received): 1674

If you visit a site dedicated to American railroading like railroad.net with actual rail industry employees on it, you can learn more about the problems with the 1st Gen Acelas.

Also it doesn't matter if the current corridor will never be a super high speed line(which also unfairly downplays the value of upgrading or realigning segments to 150-60 or even 180 mph one day). If the new trains can actually use their tilt mechanisms and there are more of them to increase frequency that will have a vastly bigger effect on real world timetables than speed increases over short distances.
__________________
What fun would internet discussions be if we weren't all amateur experts in everything?

After I'm gone, your earth will be free to live out its miserable span of existence, as one of my satellites, and that's how it's going to be...

Bring me the continuum transfunctioner...


Last edited by zaphod; September 2nd, 2016 at 10:14 PM.
zaphod está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 02:53 AM   #6531
SamuraiBlue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,232
Likes (Received): 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
Also it doesn't matter if the current corridor will never be a super high speed line
If the new trains can actually use their tilt mechanisms and there are more of them to increase frequency that will have a vastly bigger effect on real world timetables than speed increases over short distances.
I doubt there will be much increase in frequency and/or capacity since the corridor is mixed traffic making any saving in time by individual trains eaten up by either commuter or cargo trains that share the tracks.

To gain any net time saving, all traffic within the corridor needs to shave time which will not happen within a mixed traffic environment.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
SamuraiBlue no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:15 PM   #6532
zaphod
PRESIDENT OF SPACE
 
zaphod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,176
Likes (Received): 1674

It's not like the NEC doesn't have 3 and 4 tracks in many places or more specialized commuter rail equipment capable of going fast or anything...

/s
__________________
What fun would internet discussions be if we weren't all amateur experts in everything?

After I'm gone, your earth will be free to live out its miserable span of existence, as one of my satellites, and that's how it's going to be...

Bring me the continuum transfunctioner...


ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
zaphod está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2016, 01:36 AM   #6533
00Zy99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,980
Likes (Received): 1506

That does mitigate things somewhat. However, there are still many regional and long-distance trains running. Those and the commuter expresses all have to run on the inner tracks.

There's a reason New Jersey is looking at going to six-track operation where it can.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
00Zy99 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2016, 02:19 AM   #6534
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,050
Likes (Received): 1143

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
Expense. Amtrak has stated they thought of simply updating the existing rolling stock, but they didn't have enough spare equipment to make it work, and it would have ended up being less economical than acquiring new trains.

You'll note the existing plans (linked below) indicate they originally planned to do so: expanding the existing fleet from 1-6-1 to 1-8-1 while acquiring only 12 sets, and then replacing the old Acelas with 32 new sets, in the middle of the next decade.
That indicates that the way the original contract was a terrible mistake, if to purchase a new train is more expensive that to "enlarge and update" an old one.

By the way it is quite strange that they come back to the same manufacturer when tilting did not work with the actual trains. The whole history is a mess.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2016, 04:54 AM   #6535
Jay
Registered User
 
Jay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California to Barcelona
Posts: 4,055
Likes (Received): 1864

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
The same has happened to the Shinkansen 500.
They've been build between 1995-1998 and after 2010 they've been downgraded to a slower service scraping a lot of the fleet even one driving cab has been preserved in a museum.

Wait what!? Those don't run anymore? They were my favorite Shinkansen! What was wrong with them?

They should send the Shinkansen 500 to the USA in that case because they're awesome.
__________________
Jay no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2016, 06:56 AM   #6536
prageethSL
Registered User
 
prageethSL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tomorrowland
Posts: 1,240
Likes (Received): 3035

__________________
We are all drops of awareness, in an ocean of consciousness.
prageethSL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2016, 12:05 AM   #6537
Silver Swordsman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 371
Likes (Received): 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Wait what!? Those don't run anymore? They were my favorite Shinkansen! What was wrong with them?

They should send the Shinkansen 500 to the USA in that case because they're awesome.
The 500 series Shinkansens were reportedly very difficult and expensive to maintain. Unlike the other Shinkansen designs (which had trailer cars for the nose and business cars), every wheel assembly was powered, which although was good for top high speeds, the added weight meant it was slower to accelerate, which JR viewed as more crucial on the congested 270-kph-rated Tokaido Shinkansen. (500 series is rated for 320 kph, but the 700 series, while rated for only 300kph, reach their top speed almost two minutes earlier).

Moreover, the nose design, while aesthetically pleasing, was actually highly detrimental to its surroundings, as Japanese Shinkansen tunnels were very tight-fitting and caused violent "tunnel-booms" at tunnel entrances--this has actually prompted calls for the Shinkansen service to slow down near populated areas. New Shinkansen designs from the 700 series onwards have their noses specially designed to mitigate tunnel boom (which also explains the absolutely unique nose shapes on the E5 and E6 Shinkansens).
__________________
My Virtual-Model Railroad: High Speed Rail in RCT3
Project Anniversary: Click Here

ChuckScraperMiami#1, FM 2258 liked this post
Silver Swordsman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2016, 08:31 PM   #6538
3737
Registered User
 
3737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Leiden
Posts: 1,402
Likes (Received): 1034

In this video you can clearly hear the tunnel boom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Wait what!? Those don't run anymore? They were my favorite Shinkansen! What was wrong with them?
Its also one of my favorite high speed trains because of its sleek and clean design.
But don't worry a part of the 500 series is still in service.
One of those sets even run a special livery to mark the 40th anniversary of the Sanyo Shinkansen and the 20th anniversary of the anime Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Link
__________________
3737 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2016, 05:33 PM   #6539
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 451
Likes (Received): 124

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
Its also one of my favorite high speed trains because of its sleek and clean design.

But don't worry a part of the 500 series is still in service.

Last time I was in Japan they essentially had the 500 series running Kodama service ( all-stop hourly service ) on the Sanyo line West of Osaka. They're owned by JR West so most tourists travelling only between Tokyo and the Osaka area don't get a chance to see them or ride them. However, if you time a trip to Himeji castle you may get a a chance to ride one.

It does illustrate one thing. Acceleration and stopping patterns have a MUCH greater effect on trip time than top speed. This is why running mostly non-stops between city centres is key. This is also why the new maglev between Tokyo and Nagoya will be mostly non-stop service.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2016, 09:24 PM   #6540
Silver Swordsman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 371
Likes (Received): 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
In this video you can clearly hear the tunnel boom.
That was the first time that I actually heard such a pronounced tunnel boom. Thanks for sharing this!
__________________
My Virtual-Model Railroad: High Speed Rail in RCT3
Project Anniversary: Click Here
Silver Swordsman no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
amtrak, desertxpress, fly california, high speed rail, northeast corridor, texas triangle, united states

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium