daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 31st, 2009, 01:13 AM   #661
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

By invading Iran and stealing the oil.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 31st, 2009, 02:05 AM   #662
davsot
Perro que ladra no muerde
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,243
Likes (Received): 47

Or failing miserably. Ugh, I'm sick and tired of war.
davsot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 02:20 AM   #663
Xusein
 
Xusein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 26,172
Likes (Received): 10385

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall View Post
I know HSR is hip and I'd love to see more of it in the future, but I'd cut it from the budget and concentrate on paying down the national debt (not to mention ending both of W's wars). The world is holding it's breathe as we teeter on the brink of default. China mortgages $1,000,000,000 of $4,000,000,000 of U.S. debt... DAILY.
The auto industry & oil companies have shelved technology for decades that would give cars unfathomable MPG. We have an incredible interstate system that would be a nice combo for really efficient cars. Don't get me wrong, I ride Amtrak to NOLA quite freqently and I can see that HSR would be a great amenity for people & the enviroment.
My point is that the USA shouldn't spend a dime for something that doesn't provide sharp returns of investment until the national debt is greatly reduced (except for matters of health, education, etc., of course). It would take year$ & ten$ of billion$ to get something like this to be able to compete with planes & automobiles. Although, I hope it does prevail in the future.

U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 27 Jul 2009 is:

$11,618,179,490,201.92

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$3,910,000,000 PER DAY since September 28, 2007

These numbers are a runaway high speed train that must be stopped.
Well, a potential HSR would be a drop in the bucket anyway. We may as well use the money on something that would benefit ourselves for once (unlike war spending and bailouts). Japan itself has quite a large public debt, although it is a net creditor in foreign debts, and it has lots of incredible HSR projects and other infrastructure to show for it.

BTW, less than 7% of US national debt is in Chinese hands.
Xusein no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 11:11 AM   #664
octopusop
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 107
Likes (Received): 2

Obama will sign a contract to buy Chinese HSR talent when he visit China in winter. Signal systems and coaches will be "made in china" or producing by GE & EMD under chinese license.
octopusop no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 02:43 PM   #665
davsot
Perro que ladra no muerde
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,243
Likes (Received): 47

Source? Well, interesting. I would've liked to see an American railroad industry. So sad, I hope ties with China can get better because it appears we will continue to depend on them for good despite this recession. Not that that's a bad thing, but we can't just keep getting other people to do things for us. We must produce!
davsot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 03:21 PM   #666
jpIllInoIs
Registered User
 
jpIllInoIs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 649
Likes (Received): 48

Yeah Please give a source when making declaritve statements.
jpIllInoIs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 04:10 PM   #667
octopusop
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 107
Likes (Received): 2

The message source is remarks by ZhangShuGuang(张曙光), chief-engineer of China Ministry of Railway. Negotiation of HSR contract with Americans will finished soon, he also said.

In fact, from oct.2008, American officers and enterprisers visited chinese inter-city HSR every month, they are from Congress, Department of Transportation, Federal Railroad Administration, General Electric, Electro Motive Diesel. Nancy Pelosi and Jeffrey R. Immelt took the 350km/h train.

Last edited by octopusop; July 31st, 2009 at 08:54 PM.
octopusop no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 07:39 PM   #668
ADCS
Kickin' it
 
ADCS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Screwston, Plexus
Posts: 508
Likes (Received): 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by octopusop View Post
The message source is remarks by ZhangShuGuang(张曙光), chief-engineer of China Ministry of Railway. Negotiation of HSR contract with Americans will finished soon, he also said.

In fact, from oct.2008, American officers and enterprisers visited chinese inter-city HSR very month, they are from Congress, Department of Transportation, Federal Railroad Administration, General Electric, Electro Motive Diesel. Nancy Pelosi and Jeffrey R. Immelt took the 350km/h train.
I'd distrust much of what's coming out of the state-capital apparatus in China until at least after the 60th anniversary of Mao's victory passes this fall. The relative straightforwardness that we've seen over the last few years seems to be waning, as emphasizing national pride seems to be the priority. It also goes along with the Chinese strategy of indicating that its economy is doing much better than the rest of the world.

That being said, if this were to happen, that wouldn't be surprising, either.
ADCS no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 07:40 PM   #669
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpIllInoIs View Post
Yeah Please give a source when making declaritve statements.


The word is spelt declarative.

But it's a good word, not often seen, and it rolls off the tongue smoothly, so thanks for writing it, I'm going to use it from now on.

I love the English language. For anyone else that does, I strongly suggest they read Melvyn Bragg's book, The Adventure of English.

As for high speed trains in America, assuming that it will be the Europeans who get the contracts to build the things, do you reckon they'll be built to the wider North American loading gauge, or simply be clones of the trains running in Europe?

If they are European clones, do you think they'll have to opt for 2+1 seating plans, because the larger size (width) of the average American?

I only ask because I read that the US airlines have been thinking of charging obese people for two seats when they fly, because normal-size people had been refusing to sit next to them.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 07:45 PM   #670
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

Quote:
Originally Posted by zkline View Post
Why aren't they focusing on just a few really high-density routes? Why bother with Dallas-Little Rock? Worcester-Albany? How many people need to get from Raleigh to Savannah? Even Albany-Buffalo seems fairly marginal. And as someone already said, why oh why wouldn't you connect Dallas to Houston? Those are enormous cities, and the distance is perfect.


I agree with you.

Fortunately nothing is set in stone at this stage, and the high speed map may undergo many changes before any earth is dug.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 08:00 PM   #671
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by octopusop View Post
Obama will sign a contract to buy Chinese HSR talent when he visit China in winter. Signal systems and coaches will be "made in china" or producing by GE & EMD under chinese license.
I wonder if any one ever read the contract signed between PRC and various companies that provided CHR technology because I doubt that any of them would have agreed that the transferred technology can be exported out of Mainland China.

Semiens, Hitachi and/or, Alstrom are all major international players and would not have accepted their own technology competing against them in the international market which is just plain stupid.

I also believe the US congress will not accept any major national project without a built in USA clause within it unless PLC forced it using the major US bond stock as leverage.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 08:34 PM   #672
octopusop
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 107
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I wonder if any one ever read the contract signed between PRC and various companies that provided CHR technology because I doubt that any of them would have agreed that the transferred technology can be exported out of Mainland China.

Semiens, Hitachi and/or, Alstrom are all major international players and would not have accepted their own technology competing against them in the international market which is just plain stupid.

I also believe the US congress will not accept any major national project without a built in USA clause within it unless PLC forced it using the major US bond stock as leverage.
Alstom had been kicked off from CRH games, their trains are the most expensive(>200 million RMB), the slowest(250km/h), and the most fault rate. Alstom CRH5 had been replaced by Bombadier-Sifang CRH1.

As you said, Siemens expressed disapproval of technology transferring, but Kawasaki has kept silent. Kawasaki CRH2s are the cheapest(<100 million RMB), the fastest(350km/h), and the most stabile. When China bought the CRH2 tech, Kawasaki was under financial crisis, maybe they sell the tech and reselling license. If China export the CRH, must be this one.


Note: one train of CRH have 8 coaches.
octopusop no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2009, 08:35 PM   #673
natarajan1986
social member
 
natarajan1986's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Chennai/trivandrum
Posts: 3,092
Likes (Received): 3600

chinese are advanced in this region and i think we must utilize them setting the diffrence aside
natarajan1986 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 1st, 2009, 04:40 AM   #674
HAWC1506
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bellevue, WA + Munich, Bavaria
Posts: 1,280
Likes (Received): 28

I dunno. I don't want to start a China-bashing war, but I'm still having a hard time trusting anything major from that country. Most of the technology that they have isn't theirs and the growing economy that you see in China is mainly driven by foreign investment.

I would much rather see German, French, or Japanese technology on our soil.
HAWC1506 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 1st, 2009, 05:04 AM   #675
Shmack
Surfin' bird
 
Shmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Daly City
Posts: 182
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAWC1506 View Post
I dunno. I don't want to start a China-bashing war, but I'm still having a hard time trusting anything major from that country. Most of the technology that they have isn't theirs and the growing economy that you see in China is mainly driven by foreign investment.

I would much rather see German, French, or Japanese technology on our soil.
So what? Foreign investments in China don't come in conflict with the fact that they can build nice trains. Besides, do you have money to buy Japanese technology?
__________________

Aprendimos a quererte
desde la historica altura
donde el sol de tu bravura
le puso cerco a la muerte.
Shmack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 1st, 2009, 08:41 AM   #676
Onn
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The United States
Posts: 1,544
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xusein View Post
Well, a potential HSR would be a drop in the bucket anyway. We may as well use the money on something that would benefit ourselves for once (unlike war spending and bailouts). Japan itself has quite a large public debt, although it is a net creditor in foreign debts, and it has lots of incredible HSR projects and other infrastructure to show for it.

BTW, less than 7% of US national debt is in Chinese hands.
I agree that the government debt MUST be gotten rid of, we shouldn't have that debt in the first place. But instead of paying all the money China is to put in high-speed rail coast to coast, we should be working on the next big thing. I can tell you right now that there are places where high-speed rail just isn't going to work here, whether that is from a geographic standpoint or an economic standpoint. For example, they want to build all these high-speed rail lines here in the Midwest, and I can tell you already that many of them are not going to be worth their cost. Now, in states like California, Texas, and Florida I could see high-speed rail working very well; maybe a couple other lines thrown in between. But it's really not going to be a practical solution for the majority of the country. We already have an extensive highway and air system in place, I don't think it makes sense to add another extensive network in between. Maybe in China it does, but they have a lot more people than we do. Building 15 lane highways just is not practical.

Not that I wouldn't love to have high-speed rail coast to coast, but we need to work with our situation and capital. I think it's too expensive to deck out the entire country with high-speed rail, it just isn't going to happen. Now, light-rail and subways should be utilized in every city, in any way possible. I'm all for train travel, it doesn’t have to be high-speed to be successful. I live in a large metro area where there are many different cities in the same area, side-by-side. It would be great to take the train between them instead of taking the car, on roads loaded with hundreds of other people. But I think we need to be looking at ways to move people shorter distance through air travel too. What I mean by that is precisely an "Air-Bus". A bus that can take off from the ground, fly 50 miles in the air, and drop off its passengers, move on to the next stop. I don't see why we couldn't work on creating some sort of midway air transportation. Obviously the technology needs to be refined greatly, but we already have military aircraft that can take off and land vertically. Why not strengthen and modify that technology for civilian use? Instead of doing today, why don’t we do tomorrow? Something better than high-speed rail will come along one day soon anyway, regardless if we utilize it or not. Instead of playing catch-up, maybe we need to think ahead?
Onn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 1st, 2009, 05:47 PM   #677
jpIllInoIs
Registered User
 
jpIllInoIs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 649
Likes (Received): 48

In the Midwest the Spanish and French have a huge headstart in engineering and design, they have been advising, demonstrating and courting the MWHSR and MWRRI since about 1995. I doubt any Chinese equipment will be coming to the heartland.
jpIllInoIs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 1st, 2009, 06:30 PM   #678
Onn
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The United States
Posts: 1,544
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpIllInoIs View Post
In the Midwest the Spanish and French have a huge headstart in engineering and design, they have been advising, demonstrating and courting the MWHSR and MWRRI since about 1995. I doubt any Chinese equipment will be coming to the heartland.
Where did you get that information? I haven't anything about any company interested in doing business in the Midwest (with the exception of the Spanish company in Minnesota). There haven't been any plans for high-speed rail here.
Onn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 2nd, 2009, 02:01 AM   #679
HAWC1506
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bellevue, WA + Munich, Bavaria
Posts: 1,280
Likes (Received): 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmack View Post
So what? Foreign investments in China don't come in conflict with the fact that they can build nice trains. Besides, do you have money to buy Japanese technology?
It's not the fact that they can build. It's the fact that they often lack quality control. If you're in the construction/manufacturing industry, QA and QC becomes two of the most important terms during any operation. You need Quality Assurance from the contractor (which we've seen that China doesn't do very well in this area) and Quality Control (which the U.S. also sometimes struggles with).

The Chinese build nice trains because they are propped up by foreign investment, using foreign technology. They never had expertise before that.

The U.S. will be in the same position. We need to buy foreign technology because we don't have expertise. But even once we get foreign technology, we still need to keep learning, and chances are we will still need foreign assistance because we don't have the expertise to do it ourselves.

Why not get the technology from countries that you can trust will do it right from the beginning, instead of a country that barely has experience itself and is still in the learning process?
HAWC1506 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 2nd, 2009, 05:18 AM   #680
mgk920
Nonhyphenated-American
 
mgk920's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Appleton, WI USA
Posts: 2,583
Likes (Received): 68

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onn View Post
Where did you get that information? I haven't anything about any company interested in doing business in the Midwest (with the exception of the Spanish company in Minnesota). There haven't been any plans for high-speed rail here.
The State of Wisconsin very recently inked a deal with Talgo to build two trainsets to replace the ones that Amtrak now uses on its Hiawathas. They are to be built at an as yet unknown plant here in Wisconsin.

Mike
mgk920 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
amtrak, desertxpress, fly california, high speed rail, northeast corridor, texas triangle, united states

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium