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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 2nd, 2017, 02:27 AM   #6801
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Whoops, I though you guys mean that they are NEVER going to extend the line to LA & SF which would kinda defeat the entire point of CAHSR, but I realize this isnt a complete map, and I didn't miss anything super awful.
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Old May 2nd, 2017, 01:29 PM   #6802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Turns out there's something in the way.
I'm assuming trains would run from LA Union Station on existing tracks? Also, improvements to the stretch between San Berandino and Victorville is needed. Right now Amtrak trains takes 1:20 to traverse 46 miles (74 km), an average speed of 35 mph!
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Old May 2nd, 2017, 10:37 PM   #6803
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Between San Bernardino and Victorville is Cajon Pass. Which is very tight and very steep. The winding tracks force trains to go slowly. The route is very busy, and is currently at capacity. Adding more tracks oriented for fast passenger trains would involve an immensely expensive tunneling project. After that, you would still need to provide a connection to downtown LA, either modifying existing (very busy) track or adding new track (very expensive). The route down from Palmdale via Burbank is already going to be dealing with the same issues, so why spend a fortune twice when the time difference won't be very large?
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Old May 4th, 2017, 02:15 AM   #6804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
2035 is the expected connection of XpressWest to CAHSR (e.g. the 11 million riders figure) - the latter of which is not scheduled to complete the Bakersfield-Palmdale-LA section until 2029; although, probably sooner.

The article clearly states the projected completion of the trunk line (e.g. the 3 million riders figure) to Las Vegas is 2021.

No one knows what the plans are for Palmdale, as no preferred alternative has been selected. Those dates will continue to shift.

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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Why won't they build the XpressWest line to Los Angeles? Looks like they don't want too many people to use this. Driving almost 2 hours to catch a high speed train makes no sense. Time to contract China to build our high speed rail system. They would get this line done in a jiffy.
They the airlines.
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Old May 4th, 2017, 03:03 AM   #6805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Between San Bernardino and Victorville is Cajon Pass. Which is very tight and very steep. The winding tracks force trains to go slowly. The route is very busy, and is currently at capacity. Adding more tracks oriented for fast passenger trains would involve an immensely expensive tunneling project. After that, you would still need to provide a connection to downtown LA, either modifying existing (very busy) track or adding new track (very expensive). The route down from Palmdale via Burbank is already going to be dealing with the same issues, so why spend a fortune twice when the time difference won't be very large?

Fixed ...




In California, the most important feature of any stations is to have a lot of parking spaces ( multilevel and automated ) .
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Old May 4th, 2017, 03:44 AM   #6806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
Fixed ...

There's no room for that.

This is Cajon Pass:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...48%29.tiff.jpg

Building bridges alone would be impossible. The land on the east side of the pass is much higher than the land on the west side. Like so:

****************** /\ ************ Victorville
***************** / * \_____________________________
San Bernardino **** /
------------------------

You would need to do a LOT of tunneling. And either bridges or tunnels will be VERY expensive.

And then, you have only gotten to San Bernardino. There are still another 25+ miles through suburban LA, all of it built up. You would need to either take land (hello, there, tremendously expensive eminent domain suits), build a viaduct (nuisance complaints + the cost of building a 25 mile-long bridge) or dig a tunnel (slightly less nuisance complaints, but can you say Big Dig?).

Quote:
In California, the most important feature of any stations is to have a lot of parking spaces ( multilevel and automated ) .
They are very much trying to get away from that and over towards Transit-Oriented Development with walkable town-like settings.
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Old May 4th, 2017, 07:16 AM   #6807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
There's no room for that.

This is Cajon Pass:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...48%29.tiff.jpg

Building bridges alone would be impossible. The land on the east side of the pass is much higher than the land on the west side. Like so:

****************** /\ ************ Victorville
***************** / * \_____________________________
San Bernardino **** /
------------------------

You would need to do a LOT of tunneling. And either bridges or tunnels will be VERY expensive.

And then, you have only gotten to San Bernardino. There are still another 25+ miles through suburban LA, all of it built up. You would need to either take land (hello, there, tremendously expensive eminent domain suits), build a viaduct (nuisance complaints + the cost of building a 25 mile-long bridge) or dig a tunnel (slightly less nuisance complaints, but can you say Big Dig?).



They are very much trying to get away from that and over towards Transit-Oriented Development with walkable town-like settings.

They can have shuttle services at transit hubs but the parking spaces are a must.

Say 5km of tunnels is too much? Even w/o tunnels is too much? I don't think so.

Google Maps
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Old May 4th, 2017, 02:00 PM   #6808
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True, but someone has to pay for it. And building tunnels in the USA has proven to be ridiculously expensive.
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Old May 4th, 2017, 02:26 PM   #6809
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skyridgeline: That tunnel would have an incline of 45%.........
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Old May 4th, 2017, 06:56 PM   #6810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8166UY View Post
True, but someone has to pay for it. And building tunnels in the USA has proven to be ridiculously expensive.
It's expensive anywhere when you have captured markets and corrupt politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
skyridgeline: That tunnel would have an incline of 45%.........
Actually, 4.5% for a 11km tunnel. Are tunnels needed? The I-15 is ~2.5% (20km) which is well within the limits for high speed trains.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 02:39 AM   #6811
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Alright. For the umpteenth time.

Its not just about getting over the pass. You still have another 80 MILES through the LA sprawl to get to downtown. And the land is all built up.

The existing tracks are heavily used or slated for more commuter traffic, so there's no room for a new service there.

That means you need to build new tracks.

You can run on the surface, and deal with hundreds of eminent domain cases.

You can build an elevated line, with a few dozen eminent domain cases and a TON of nuisance cases.

You can dig a tunnel. That will get fewer eminent domain and nuisance cases, but you will still have some.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 07:43 AM   #6812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Alright. For the umpteenth time.

Its not just about getting over the pass. You still have another 80 MILES through the LA sprawl to get to downtown. And the land is all built up.

The existing tracks are heavily used or slated for more commuter traffic, so there's no room for a new service there.

That means you need to build new tracks.

You can run on the surface, and deal with hundreds of eminent domain cases.

You can build an elevated line, with a few dozen eminent domain cases and a TON of nuisance cases.

You can dig a tunnel. That will get fewer eminent domain and nuisance cases, but you will still have some.

What eminent domain is a concern if the tracks (need not be side by side) tag along the Santa Ana River and I/SR roadways? You can have bridges instead of tunnels if needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ana_River



Google Maps

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Old May 5th, 2017, 10:45 AM   #6813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Alright. For the umpteenth time.

Its not just about getting over the pass. You still have another 80 MILES through the LA sprawl to get to downtown. And the land is all built up.

The existing tracks are heavily used or slated for more commuter traffic, so there's no room for a new service there.

That means you need to build new tracks.

You can run on the surface, and deal with hundreds of eminent domain cases.

You can build an elevated line, with a few dozen eminent domain cases and a TON of nuisance cases.

You can dig a tunnel. That will get fewer eminent domain and nuisance cases, but you will still have some.
Look, there is a an eight-lane highway going through the pass. It's not impossible.

And if Los Angeles seriously considers shifting a large proportion of traffic to rail, new tracks will have to be added. A lengthy process, yes. But not at all impossible.

Point is that it all comes down to political will.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 12:29 PM   #6814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
Actually, 4.5% for a 11km tunnel. Are tunnels needed? The I-15 is ~2.5% (20km) which is well within the limits for high speed trains.
Well you got me there! Still impossible for a tunnel that length.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 12:40 PM   #6815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8166UY View Post
True, but someone has to pay for it. And building tunnels in the USA has proven to be ridiculously expensive.
Tunneling costs aren't really that out of line...in a typical project like, say, a metro line, it's the [deep cavern-style] stations that tend to be way too expensive, not the tunnels.

The Second Avenue Subway always gets floated around as being the most expensive metro project in the world ($1.7 billion per km), but tunneling costs were probably only something like $60 million per km.

If the SAS were built at a more reasonable depth, the project probably would've been cheaper.

If you look at LA's Purple Line extension, you'd find the entirety of all three phases are budgeted at something around $400 million per km - still on the expensive side, but something less stratospheric (most likely, because the stations are not being built nearly as deep as many other similar projects [in NYC]).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonasry View Post
Point is that it all comes down to political will.
It comes down to the opportunity costs of doing it...
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Last edited by phoenixboi08; May 5th, 2017 at 09:49 PM.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 02:23 PM   #6816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
$5 million per km
Where did you get this figure? The article says $19,000 per foot which is more than $100M per mile.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 05:07 PM   #6817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
What eminent domain is a concern if the tracks (need not be side by side) tag along the Santa Ana River and I/SR roadways? You can have bridges instead of tunnels if needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ana_River



Google Maps

Well, there's the small fact that the Santa Ana River doesn't go nearly far enough west.

Then there's the fact that the area is built up everywhere except for the flood plains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonasry View Post
Look, there is a an eight-lane highway going through the pass. It's not impossible.
Impossible? No.

Highly technically challenging? Yes.

It simply isn't worth the value of opening a link to Las Vegas, which is a much smaller market.

Quote:
And if Los Angeles seriously considers shifting a large proportion of traffic to rail, new tracks will have to be added. A lengthy process, yes. But not at all impossible.

Point is that it all comes down to political will.
Actually, there's a major difference. High Speed Rail has different performance characteristics. The commuter rail can be expanded with maybe one additional track along the current route. Doing that with HSR would compromise the speed advantages of the mode. There is some room to expand freight and commuter rail, but not enough to cram in HSR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
Well you got me there! Still impossible for a tunnel that length.
The current record slope for a high speed rail line is 4.0%.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 09:41 PM   #6818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
Where did you get this figure? The article says $19,000 per foot which is more than $100M per mile.
Right :P I stupidly reversed the conversion.

In any case, the overall point is that the actual tunneling isn't actually so expensive, it's all the other stuff - some of it necessary, a lot of it not inherently so.
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Old May 7th, 2017, 07:44 PM   #6819
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There are new aerial photos of California HSR CP1 from the official Flickr account:
Fresno Trench at SR180:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsrcag...44405/sizes/l/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsrcag...819453/sizes/l
Avenue 8 crossing ( in this photo we can see the cleared way for future tracks)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsrcag...196001/sizes/l
Cottonwood Creek Bridge

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsrcag...769713/sizes/l
Fresno River Viaduct

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsrcag...146201/sizes/l
San Joaquin River Viaduct:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsrcag...252434/sizes/l
Cedar Street viaduct:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsrcag...121941/sizes/l
New Toloume Street Bridge( in the background we can see a part of the Fresno Trench)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsrcag...549006/sizes/l

CHSR Official Flickr Account:https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsrcagov/
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Old May 7th, 2017, 08:33 PM   #6820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
The current record slope for a high speed rail line is 4.0%.
I said for a tunnel THAT LENGTH.
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