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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 8th, 2009, 05:19 AM   #761
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NG will take a bigger portion. If they can work with coal gasification down the road I bet that will get bigger too. Nuclear isn't that discussed right now.
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Old October 8th, 2009, 07:27 AM   #762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onn View Post
What's will all the US bashing? You have no clue what you're talking about.
I am not bashing US, simply stating the facts.
You can check out youtube, eve obama says" China's infrastructure is vastly superior to ours"
Note that obama said "Vastly" superior,which is absolutely true.
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Old October 8th, 2009, 05:53 PM   #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onthetopo View Post
I am not bashing US, simply stating the facts.
You can check out youtube, eve obama says" China's infrastructure is vastly superior to ours"
Note that obama said "Vastly" superior,which is absolutely true.
Thats because it's new and they have money.
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Old October 9th, 2009, 03:40 AM   #764
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What words should I search on YT to find that statement by Obama?
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Old October 9th, 2009, 03:57 AM   #765
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Originally Posted by dl3000 View Post
Thats because it's new and they have money.
And the fact that China didn't have anything signficant before.
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Old October 9th, 2009, 04:00 AM   #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onthetopo View Post
I am not bashing US, simply stating the facts.
You can check out youtube, eve obama says" China's infrastructure is vastly superior to ours"
Note that obama said "Vastly" superior,which is absolutely true.
Well considering I live in Detroit and know how our transportation compares to the rest of the country, I find your statements hurtful and think you’re a jerk! There are transportation systems being put in place some places in the US that would make some Europeans and Asian nations jealous at too! Like the new light-rail system in Seattle, and the new high-speed rail system starting construction soon in California. So I think you should shut up, the debt is not a huge factor when it comes to transportation.

There is also nothing wrong with the good old fashioned car!
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Old October 9th, 2009, 05:38 AM   #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onn View Post
Well considering I live in Detroit and know how our transportation compares to the rest of the country, I find your statements hurtful and think you’re a jerk! There are transportation systems being put in place some places in the US that would make some Europeans and Asian nations jealous at too! Like the new light-rail system in Seattle, and the new high-speed rail system starting construction soon in California. So I think you should shut up, the debt is not a huge factor when it comes to transportation.

There is also nothing wrong with the good old fashioned car!
I think its really to do with people being sceptical about the USA's high speed rail. Mainly to do with the fact that the first attempt with the Acela Express still has an average speed of 70Mph.

I do think its great that the USA is finally getting into all this railway business, but do I think it will take off with great popularity in such a car loving place? NO...
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Old October 9th, 2009, 06:29 AM   #768
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Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
I think its really to do with people being sceptical about the USA's high speed rail. Mainly to do with the fact that the first attempt with the Acela Express still has an average speed of 70Mph.

I do think its great that the USA is finally getting into all this railway business, but do I think it will take off with great popularity in such a car loving place? NO...
Well I personally don't love the car one bit, but there are a lot of people out there who do. Most American's regard their cars very highly, they want private transpiration. You can't make those people into rail lovers. The Acela was hardly high-speed rail, I understand 100% why it never took off. That was not a real bullet train. But there are certainly other opportunities elsewhere, particularly in California, Texas, and Florida. I think once people get something fast and reliable they will be more likely to use it. I'm not sure high-speed rail will work everywhere, but there are certainly places it will. Overtime it should take off.

Not that I truly believe high-speed rail is the future of transportation, because I don't...so I guess it remains to be seen how much it penetrates the US before the next big thing comes along.
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Old October 9th, 2009, 06:52 AM   #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
I think its really to do with people being sceptical about the USA's high speed rail. Mainly to do with the fact that the first attempt with the Acela Express still has an average speed of 70Mph.

I do think its great that the USA is finally getting into all this railway business, but do I think it will take off with great popularity in such a car loving place? NO...
Acela was saddled by Bush-era FRA regulations and old tracks in very built up areas.

Regardless, it has pretty much succeeded in bringing in customers.

It's not always about getting people out of cars either. The California system is geared towards reducing congested airports. Short regional flights are unnecessarily wasteful and not exactly fun.
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Old October 9th, 2009, 04:14 PM   #770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onn View Post
There are transportation systems being put in place some places in the US that would make some Europeans and Asian nations jealous at too! Like the new light-rail system in Seattle, and the new high-speed rail system starting construction soon in California.
Well, sorry to tell you that, but the US are a bit too late to make any European jealous. They will maybe in the long run but not now.

Europe is pretty well equiped in light-rail systems, metro systems, rail systems and/or high-speed rail systems. The systems are not new everywhere (Europe also scraped some of her old tramway network during the 50s) but the trend to rebuild and offer new public transportation at started earlier than in the US.

Most of the mid sized cites have here a light-rail network and a regional network. Many are brand new (in France and Spain for exemple) and many other old systems have been improved during the last 20 years or so. There is even a French city with 210.000 inhabitants (around 600.000 with the 'burbs) that is goind to have two fully automatic metro lines in 2018. The first one was open in 2002 and was completely repaid a couple of years after.

Spain, France, Germany and Italy have now extensive high speed networks doubled with more or less efficient non high-speed networks.

Switzerland, Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark and UK have very dense railway networks and urban networks seing a lot of investments and new plans. Sweden is well equiped if I remember correctly and is improving speed on its rail network.

Paris is envisionning a 30b€ plan to improve its urban network. London have some nice projects in construction.

Russia has started the construction of some HSL. Poland have plans to implement some.

The only thing west Europeans can envy is the american freight system and NYC metro system. The new plans for light rail and HSR are nice but don't even feel like they have or are going to have the same standards as the European's.

Asia is different but many things are happening there too.

Also, ways of financing public transportation projects are much more secured in Europe than in the US (mainly because populations doesn't have the same view on the subject and how governement should be part of their life or not). It make it easier to invest, upgrade and maintain the networks.
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Old October 9th, 2009, 10:34 PM   #771
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Sounds like a lot of US bashing going on here - some pretty sour grapes sounds like to me! If China is vastly ahead in rail infrastructure then good on them - but Obama is not necessarily the oracle anyhow. Europe is not by any means a homogenous market and we have some very sophisticated infrastucture alongside iron curtain legacy equipment - so no one should be bragging about that. Again very hard to compare apples with oranges.
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Old October 10th, 2009, 12:57 AM   #772
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Originally Posted by disturbman View Post
Well, sorry to tell you that, but the US are a bit too late to make any European jealous. They will maybe in the long run but not now.

Europe is pretty well equiped in light-rail systems, metro systems, rail systems and/or high-speed rail systems. The systems are not new everywhere (Europe also scraped some of her old tramway network during the 50s) but the trend to rebuild and offer new public transportation at started earlier than in the US.

Most of the mid sized cites have here a light-rail network and a regional network. Many are brand new (in France and Spain for exemple) and many other old systems have been improved during the last 20 years or so. There is even a French city with 210.000 inhabitants (around 600.000 with the 'burbs) that is goind to have two fully automatic metro lines in 2018. The first one was open in 2002 and was completely repaid a couple of years after.

Spain, France, Germany and Italy have now extensive high speed networks doubled with more or less efficient non high-speed networks.

Switzerland, Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark and UK have very dense railway networks and urban networks seing a lot of investments and new plans. Sweden is well equiped if I remember correctly and is improving speed on its rail network.

Paris is envisionning a 30b€ plan to improve its urban network. London have some nice projects in construction.

Russia has started the construction of some HSL. Poland have plans to implement some.

The only thing west Europeans can envy is the american freight system and NYC metro system. The new plans for light rail and HSR are nice but don't even feel like they have or are going to have the same standards as the European's.

Asia is different but many things are happening there too.

Also, ways of financing public transportation projects are much more secured in Europe than in the US (mainly because populations doesn't have the same view on the subject and how governement should be part of their life or not). It make it easier to invest, upgrade and maintain the networks.
I know all that. But California’s system will certainly be up to par with European systems, and it's going to be all new. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but the state of California has large population almost on par with many European nations. I know the system is going to work very well there. This is what is needed in that state. If the California system is a success growth will only feed off itself, and new lines and more funding will be available in the future.
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Old October 10th, 2009, 01:09 AM   #773
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No one is bashing the US here. I have seen some pretty sour comments, but that's all.

Europe might not be an homogenous market and the situation might also not be perfect everywhere there but speaking of mass transit and HSR the US have a long way to come to equal most of Europe. As European, if I have somewhere to look at in awe it will Switzerland, the Netherland and Spain. Don't get me wrong, I like what it's brewing in the US, these are huge steps forward, but they are still far from the standards I'm used to as a European. That said, I think that the actual pace is quite good and it couldn't go any faster or further knowing the existing limitations.

Anyway. I think by now every participants here knows what are the differences between both continents and what are the underlying reasons for these differences.

Edit @Onn: Didn't say the opposite. But I'm warry (or prudent). I will believe that California is going to build its HSR the way it says the day the line will open (or when the actual ground braking occurs). With such huge infrastructur project it's really easy to step down a bit between the conception and the actual realisation. I saw that all the time. That's a common illness: Aim for the greater in order to build the best that you can. There is still lots of danger ahead for this project.

Edit 2: When i'm saying "not to par with European standards", I was more thinking in the line of some of the projects presented as HS and some of those lightrails projects that are flourishing in the US these days.

Last edited by disturbman; October 10th, 2009 at 01:25 AM.
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Old October 10th, 2009, 08:31 AM   #774
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You know people never appreciate what's there

The reality is that I can fly across a couple states in 3 hours in a ordinary plane departing from any modest airport in small cities and larger towns. That's faster than the fastest trains will ever be. And we are getting a new freeway bypass-no bridges falling down here.

I mean, I really want quality regional rail in metropolitan regions and high speed in places where air travel is congested, but I think in the end the US will come out better for not entering a pissing contest over expensive flashy infrastructure and increasing the national debt. Come on, you don't think Obama will be prez forever--IMO the way US politics work is a reactionary right wing candidate will be elected next and cut everything, leaving whatever paltry progress made so far in the lurch.

Likewise in the end I bet China's greatest investments in their infrastructure will be mundane stuff that people find useful, like extensive 4 lane highways in the most rural of areas. Hell, power lines running to places where 30 years ago things could have passed for being 3000 years ago. Think about it.

Last edited by zaphod; October 10th, 2009 at 08:52 AM.
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Old October 10th, 2009, 08:52 AM   #775
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You know people never appreciate what's there

The reality is that I can fly across a couple states in 3 hours in a ordinary plane departing from any modest airport in small cities and larger towns. These towns and cities of course are all linked by 4 lane paved highways carrying Wal-mart trucks loaded with crap I buy to live a comfortable existance.

I mean, I really want quality regional rail in urbanized regions and high speed in places where air travel is congested, but I think in the end the US will come out better for not entering a pissing contest over expensive flashy infrastructure and increasing the national debt. Come on, you don't think Obama will be prez forever--IMO the way US politics work is a reactionary right wing candidate will be elected next and cut everything, leaving whatever paltry progress made so far in the lurch.

Likewise in the end I bet China's greatest investments in their infrastructure will be mundane stuff that people find useful, like extensive 4 lane highways in the most rural of areas. Hell, power lines running to places where 30 years ago things could have passed for being 3000 years ago. Think about it.
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Old October 10th, 2009, 09:30 AM   #776
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onn View Post
I know all that. But California’s system will certainly be up to par with European systems, and it's going to be all new. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but the state of California has large population almost on par with many European nations. I know the system is going to work very well there. This is what is needed in that state. If the California system is a success growth will only feed off itself, and new lines and more funding will be available in the future.
Apparently, from the first information given in this threads, it feels like no... the Californian HSR won't be on par with European (or Asian) systems.
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Old October 10th, 2009, 10:12 AM   #777
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Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post
Apparently, from the first information given in this threads, it feels like no... the Californian HSR won't be on par with European (or Asian) systems.
Top speed of around 350kph and everything will be brand new, so why won't it be?
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Old October 10th, 2009, 11:00 AM   #778
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Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
The reality is that I can fly across a couple states in 3 hours in a ordinary plane departing from any modest airport in small cities and larger towns. These towns and cities of course are all linked by 4 lane paved highways carrying Wal-mart trucks loaded with crap I buy to live a comfortable existance.
Yeah, but that's not so unusual. I mean, taking the train from Paris to, say, Rotterdam currently takes around three hours. Flying takes less than a hour. But the majority of travellers nevertheless prefer the train, because of the long check-in times in airports, distance from city centre to airport, frequent delays, etc. Surely that must be similar in the United States? I think you have more of a point when it comes to highways. After the introduction of the ****ing Just-In-Time concept in the business sector (keep no inventories - roll the merchandise around instead...) the European highways clogged up. This is an important additional reason so many long-distance travellers have changed to trains. In the US road congestion (except for LA and NY) is perhaps less of a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
I mean, I really want quality regional rail in urbanized regions and high speed in places where air travel is congested, but I think in the end the US will come out better for not entering a pissing contest over expensive flashy infrastructure and increasing the national debt. Come on, you don't think Obama will be prez forever--IMO the way US politics work is a reactionary right wing candidate will be elected next and cut everything, leaving whatever paltry progress made so far in the lurch.
Oh, come on. The largest federally subsidised railway investment in the history of the United States came in 1862 and was pushed by the then-president. Perhaps Lincoln should be accused of being un-American? Or alien to Republican values?
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Old October 10th, 2009, 06:32 PM   #779
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Apparently, from the first information given in this threads, it feels like no... the Californian HSR won't be on par with European (or Asian) systems.
Right, why not?
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Old October 10th, 2009, 07:06 PM   #780
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From what I read they'll use Spanish made trains, that would then be, at most, the Talgo class 102.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE_Class_102

The other HSR trains operated in Spain are either French (the class 100 is an older generation TGV) and the most recent ones used in Spain are Germans Valero.

The Talgo Class 102 which is ok of course, a pretty good system, it's based on a Bombardier systems (engines and stuffs) integrated to a Spanish chassis. We'll have to see how it performs but so far systems like the AGV or Velaro, that are Europe's most advanced ones for sure, are certainly more interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Velaro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automot...grande_vitesse
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