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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
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Old April 24th, 2007, 03:57 AM   #61
Cloudship
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Few people really "love" their cars. What they really love is what the cars afford them - privacy, control, point to point efficiency, space, and security. So you can't really develop an effective transit system without either adddressing those needs or finding niches where those needs either arn't as important or people are willing to sacrifice.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 08:03 PM   #62
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Americans love there cars, i dont think small towns would like it if the hst would pass thru there city without a stop!!
Well, if the HSR were really ISR in the 100-110mph range built within an existing rail corridor, there's nothing the small town could really do to stop it since everything involved can legally be done under FRA rules as a matter of right, without needing to get special permits from anyone. Faster trains (requiring grade separations, new ROW, etc) would give those small towns a lot more leverage.

The thing is, if it's done RIGHT (with offline stations, at least in the small towns), there's no reason why there can't be lots of trains that stop only at the big cities along the way, and maybe 2-4 trains per day that hit every single station.

In the Florida context, there might be...

* a FEW trains per day that go straight from Miami to Orlando, skipping every station in between

* 4-6 trains per day that go Miami->Fort Lauderdale->Boca Raton/Deerfield->WPB, then the stations between Auburndale (where a train coming north from Miami would turn left towards Tampa or right towards Orlando) and Tampa.

* a LOT of trains that hit Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Boca Raton/Deerfield Beach, West Palm Beach, skip the small towns in central Florida along the route, then hit the stations between Auburndale and Orlando (with a few possibly continuing all the way to Daytona and Jacksonville). Passengers could also get to Tampa by getting off at Auburndale and boarding the next Orlando->Tampa train 15-30 minutes later.

* 3 or 4 trains per day in each direction (or more likely, one physical train that just keep running back and forth all day) between West Palm Beach and Auburndale (maybe Ocala or some northwestern suburb of Orlando) that stop at all of the small towns (Sebring, Winter Park, Okeechobee, etc) in between that the main trains skip. In addition, the last train of the day (if it's ultra late and has few passengers anyway) might stop at the small-town stations to drop off passengers without checked baggage (if any). From WPB, the small-town passengers could either wait and transfer to a "main" train, or (more likely) just take Tri-Rail the rest of the way. Ditto, for the Orlando-bound.

As far as people loving their cars... that's true up to a point (say, 90-150 minute drives). But there's also a point where boredom and dread start to kick in, and rail becomes increasingly appealing... especially if passengers can safely leave their cars parked overnight or longer at the station, do their rental car paperwork and get their keys (or at least a code that opens a safe at the destination) while they're still on the train, and the whole thing is as convenient and ceremony-free as possible.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 09:27 AM   #63
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Why don't you guys come to Japan and see the marvel of the Japanese Rail system.
The Tokaido Shinkansen went into operation in 1964 and after 40 odd years it is still packed from the first train leaving Tokyo at 6AM till 10PM the last train to leave. A train either an express or a Kodama that stops at every station pulls in/leaves every 3~10 minutes.
The Sanyo Shinkansen which extends to Kyusu from Osaka connected to the Tokaido is also packed. The price is about $130US one way from Tokyo central to Osaka central with a distance about 500Km and the ride is about 2.5 hours.
The extra leg to Hakata from Osaka is about the same distance of 500Km taking about the same time.
The average daily passanger amount is 510,000 person combined.
The Tohoku shinkansen from Tokyo to Yaheto is also about 600Km and the price is little more than a $100US which went into partial service in 1971.
The total daily passanger amount for the Tohoku Shinkansen is 220,000 passangers.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 12:33 PM   #64
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This thread is not about Japan. Most of us have been to Japan and we are very aware of the Shinkasen system.

The population density and distribution in Japan has provided a unique opportunity for an simple, very effetctive railway. These conditions don't even approximate the northeast corridor in the USA.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 01:29 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
This thread is not about Japan. Most of us have been to Japan and we are very aware of the Shinkasen system.

The population density and distribution in Japan has provided a unique opportunity for an simple, very effetctive railway. These conditions don't even approximate the northeast corridor in the USA.
Oh I don't know about that, the NE corridor looks very much the same as the Tokaido line back in the '60. The Tokkaido corridor was a very congested railway back then and it is the same now.
The distance of the NE corridor is shorter than the Tokkaido with only about 350Km or the equivalent to Tokyo-Nagoya and you guys don't have to negotiate with the rocky terrains like Japan.
It's just a matter of choice and will, remember the Shinkansen was announced in 59 and went into service in 64 meaning it only took 5 years to complete.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 03:28 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Oh I don't know about that, the NE corridor looks very much the same as the Tokaido line back in the '60. The Tokkaido corridor was a very congested railway back then and it is the same now.
The distance of the NE corridor is shorter than the Tokkaido with only about 350Km or the equivalent to Tokyo-Nagoya and you guys don't have to negotiate with the rocky terrains like Japan.
It's just a matter of choice and will, remember the Shinkansen was announced in 59 and went into service in 64 meaning it only took 5 years to complete.
The Tokkaido corridor was congested as early as as the 1930's running on a narrow guage railway which was still in place in 1959 running at less tham 100km/h

The NEC has Alcela running at over 150 km/h on many stretches and fast commuter trains running on all stretches.

Trying to compare the conditions between Japan and the US and suggesting that there is simple solution is to trivialize almost 100 years tranportation politics in the United States. While I admire the accomplishments of Japanese in building the shinkansen system, which I have visited and enjoyed traveling on, the suggestion that the US can solve a complex political problem in five years the way that the Japanese solved thirty years of failure to invest in its railways is offensive.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 05:06 PM   #67
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Within the mentioned 30 years Japan was at war for a good 20 years and still recuperating the last 10.

The problem maybe complex but needless to say it is a political one. If you Americans only refinanced some of the tax payer's money into more worthwhile projects instead of war machines you people would have developed a more productive infrastructure and don't tell me Japan gained all the profit since Japan pick up around 2 billion dollars US anually for maintanance of military installation here in Japan for the last 2 decades. Japan is also pitching in a whopping 609 billion dollars US as a restructuring aid to move US millitary installations from Okinawa to Guam.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 05:09 PM   #68
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Our current presidency is but a blip on the political debate over transportation policy
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Old April 29th, 2007, 06:32 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Within the mentioned 30 years Japan was at war for a good 20 years and still recuperating the last 10.

The problem maybe complex but needless to say it is a political one. If you Americans only refinanced some of the tax payer's money into more worthwhile projects instead of war machines you people would have developed a more productive infrastructure and don't tell me Japan gained all the profit since Japan pick up around 2 billion dollars US anually for maintanance of military installation here in Japan for the last 2 decades. Japan is also pitching in a whopping 609 billion dollars US as a restructuring aid to move US millitary installations from Okinawa to Guam.
Are you sure that is 609 billion dollars US? 609 billion yen sounds like a much more plausible figure. I do agree that the US should turn its attention inward and disengage from areas like the Middle East, South Korea and NATO. By keeping returning our military forces home we can maintain the same size military at far less cost, forward deployment is expensive and the host nations only pick up a fraction of the actual costs, and even at that a large amount of the "costs" are offset by the economic stimulus of having the forces in the host nation.

In the US losing a military base is a big issue due to the area where the base is located losing that economic activity. Since the end of the Cold War we have closed scores of bases across the US, we would have been far better off closing the bulk of our overseas bases instead.

The US will be much better off when we elect our own version of Shintaro Ishihara and have an America that says "NO" to nations like Israel and South Korea.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 10:50 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fusion View Post
Should it? Probably. Will it? Not a chance.

agree, but i will be 'more' precise, "should it? of course. will it? not a chance, before a long time"
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Old April 29th, 2007, 11:05 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by steph35 View Post
agree, but i will be 'more' precise, "should it? of course. will it? not a chance, before a long time"
I am confused, this is a long thread! In what context are you replying?

Last edited by Trainman Dave; April 29th, 2007 at 11:19 PM.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 11:42 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank J. Sprague View Post
Are you sure that is 609 billion dollars US? 609 billion yen sounds like a much more plausible figure. I do agree that the US should turn its attention inward and disengage from areas like the Middle East, South Korea and NATO. By keeping returning our military forces home we can maintain the same size military at far less cost, forward deployment is expensive and the host nations only pick up a fraction of the actual costs, and even at that a large amount of the "costs" are offset by the economic stimulus of having the forces in the host nation.

In the US losing a military base is a big issue due to the area where the base is located losing that economic activity. Since the end of the Cold War we have closed scores of bases across the US, we would have been far better off closing the bulk of our overseas bases instead.

The US will be much better off when we elect our own version of Shintaro Ishihara and have an America that says "NO" to nations like Israel and South Korea.
You guys really over simplify the world. Its simply not that simple.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 05:52 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
I am confused, this is a long thread! In what context are you replying?
about the title of the thread
" Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?"

this kind of superstructures (HSR, like europeans's or japaneses's) needs many studies of all sorts... so, if nothing is decided in a near future, it will take many, many, more time before seeing this improvement...
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Old June 28th, 2007, 04:57 PM   #74
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a high speed train would be useful in the east side from boston to miami via new york, philadelphia, baltimore, washington DC, atlanta and jacksonville. i'm talking about a unique path... that would be successful i think... on the other hand i dont think a high-speed network would be so much successfu in the west side. california is the queen state of cars i think well.. i;d like to see a unique line from vancouver to san diego passin throug portland, sacramento, san fracisco and los angeles. what about a high-speed railway from houston to portland via dallas denver and salt lake city? or chigago detroit toronto montreal?
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 09:21 PM   #75
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Wasted potential on the NEC Re: HSR/Maglev

I'm extremely frustrated with the transportation situation the United States and its various governmental bodies, its awful beaurocracy. They are squandering the potential to improve connectivity in the most densley populated part of the country by ignoring the potential for high speed rail/maglev transportation up and down the NEC. Ever since Bush has come into office, no movement has happened on the maglev initiative - it has stalled and there is no furher news on it - how shortsighted.

The NEC is a megalopolis, a long narrow strip of land consisting of various cities with suburbs almost completley conjoined - if not now, they will be in the comming decades. There is aprox. 40 million people living in this coridor, more if you add adjacent areas further south and west. If you add places like Charlotte, etc..

Here we have an area that is very dense, comparable to the density of the european nations where HSR is now used succesfully. New Jersey is very dense, much denser than somewhere like France, for example. There can be no excuse that lack of density is an issue. I mean, Spain with its massive land area has only around 40 million and look at its new rail lines that are very succesful. We have incredible airline delays and congestion at places such as JFK, where there is no room for new runways. The NEC consists of some of the most vital cities in the country, NYC, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington D.C along with other large cities. A proper dedicated Maglev or HSR system would allow more room at airports for longer distance flights by siphoning off the short halls up and down the north east.

In order to increase the economic output of this region and to improve the situation of expensive housing in places like manhattan, boston, d.c, etc. it is vital to offer a way of joining all these cities together in a quick and efficient manner. It really should be actiing like one very large city and high speed rail could make it so.

Right now, it takes 6:30 hours to get from DC to Boston on the so-called HSR acela train- unacceptable. With maglev that could be down to 2-3 hours. Think of the possibilities for development. Cities like philly, baltimore, providence could almost act as bedroom communities for the larger employment centers leading to economic revitalization. People could live in Philly and work in DC, NY or Boston. Likewise for baltimore, D.C, etc. Airports could be linked to the system in order for transfers from long distance flight connections from places like JFK to smaller areas such as providence, trenton, etc.

Although people say there is no room for a new traditional LGV style line due to urbanization, a maglev could be a much better solution. Being elevated above the highways or along the current NEC rail line. Elevation would allow it to fit into the current urban sprawl without impacting too many residential areas.

There really is a lack of forsight, and I believe that in the future the US will regret not investing in itself as it looses out to the new emerging economies. Its time to invest in the country and stop being the police man of the world. There is no need for a massive military anymore as soon as Iraq has ended. Just enough troops required to defend the country. Let the EU or China be the world's guardian. If California gets its new HSR, it would be extremely stupid for the states in the north east to rest of their laurels. I am hoping that the california project may spur interest in investing the money now for the economic benefit of the region in the future.

Also, it is disgusting that in this so called democary, big business lobbyists are able to derail projects like HSR - an example, South West airlines in Texas derailed their HSR project with false ads, etc... To be honest, I wish business were not allowed to lobby at all - the people should be allowed to choose rather than big business.
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 09:34 PM   #76
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i dealt with the problem for a while, had a lot of discussins and all I can say in the end is this:

If the US wants something, they do it/get it.

If they dont want it, they dont do it/ get it, no matter how usefull or good it is.

Yes, a really good high speed rail would be good for the Norhteast....,so what?

Last edited by pflo777; December 3rd, 2007 at 01:43 PM. Reason: typo
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 09:44 PM   #77
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So what? Please take that cynical attitude and shove it up your arney please!

That kind of attitude leads to inaction - if more people had the will to ask for it, it would happen. The point i'm making is that the people here don't know how good this would be for the country. The majority don't know that they may want it or how great it could be because the majority havn't travelled enough to experience such transportation options.

I don't know how you could be so flippant and glib either, how creepy. I'm trying to bring up a serious issue here that is very important. Perhaps you really don't care about this country - well, perhaps do not discuss here please.

The goal should be to raise awareness so that more citizens ask their leaders for an improved way to travel in this era of high gas prices, global warming, air pollution, increasing gridlock and congestion, and competition from growing emerging nations. There must be a desire to invest in the country for the future generations = and a proper high speed link would kill many birds wih one stone - delivering a clean, environmentally friendly way of travel that will boost economic development, protect the air we breath, reduce gridlock and help us attract new business. There is the prestige issue too, which is important in attracting foreign investment. I.e, if you build it, they will come, look at Shanghai!
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 10:32 PM   #78
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The arguments from anti-rail types that there is no room for a new dedicated ROW in the NEC is baloney. Much of the land is old decaying industrial land along the current ROW. They could even build a new ROW up through Hartford, instead of going along the coast in CT. And then the fact that maglev can be elevated allows for highways to be used as ROW's further reducing the need for perfectly straight lines as maglev can reach high speeds even on curves. The only problem would be getting the thing into NYC. Perhaps it would be best to build the line with stops just outside the CBD's at transport nodes as to decrease the cost of tunnelling under cities. I.e, you could have a stop at Newark/Jersey City - a new rail station there connected by a quick transfer into manhattan by PATH, etc.. The overall time savings would still be alot quicker. the current NEC would be kept for freight and shorter distance commuting. The currrent proposal to link DC to baltimore would be a great start - unfortunately the project is on-hold due to dumb pro-road/airlines lobbysits and old fashioned backward republicans with no vision. I wonder if this country could ever really innovate again. A chane of government is required which I hope will happen soon. Perhaps americans are just happy to be backwards, I don't know, I can never understand why there is a lack of vision, a lack of interest in beating the odds. It always amazes me how many people would rather say "it'll never happen here" - this is why the lazy, boring politicians who have no real understanding of technology, environment, etc. have no interest in "wasting" tax payers money on so-called monstrosities such as maglev - if only they new how much benefit it would bring. Maybe they are all cynics.
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 11:03 PM   #79
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Is that really your point of view or you've just pasted it from anywhere? I've never heard of any country where bureaucracy wasn't on a priority level. The idea of maglev transportation isn't the best one due to its unbelievably high price, in my opinion. More of your ideas are absolutely non-productive.
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 11:11 PM   #80
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i do agree with you but i would say this maglev is very expansive and well HSR can be built in the united states but this is my approach to this

the HSR tracks can be built outside the city and well the Trains can follow existing Railway lines its much cheaper that way

the HSR Tracks can be built in the rural areas in the countryside and in the cities it can go with the other Rail traffic pretty much like the french and the japanese approach to HSR
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