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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 25th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #1141
Suburbanist
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post

Take sometime to seriously study the operational history of the Wuhan-Guangzhou line before sounding off more of your ignorant remarks.
Infrastructure built on famine-wage paid employees under an authoritarian government that doesn't respect democratic Western principles like eminent domain, due process, freedom of speech and self-organization cannot have their "operational history" compared to our projects.

Democracy is a blessing, and an universally superior political regime for sure, but a blessing that comes with some strings attached, one of them being an established way by which government can conduct business affecting its citizens and their property.

I make it clear: it is nothing specific against China, but against totalitarian governments pushing down projects with completely disregard for Democratic principles, due process etc., like it happens in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Cuba etc. No matter how fancy those projects might be, we cannot take them as references in regard of "oh, the Chinese build 960km of HSR at a fraction of a cost in a fraction of the time we would build them".

If you are ready to trade your liberty to live under a dicatorship (you name it... North Korea, Venezuela, China etc.) with nice trains, go on. I preffer our higher costs and lawful approach to build such projects.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 09:05 PM   #1142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Infrastructure built on famine-wage paid employees under an authoritarian government that doesn't respect democratic Western principles like eminent domain, due process, freedom of speech and self-organization cannot have their "operational history" compared to our projects.

Democracy is a blessing, and an universally superior political regime for sure, but a blessing that comes with some strings attached, one of them being an established way by which government can conduct business affecting its citizens and their property.

I make it clear: it is nothing specific against China, but against totalitarian governments pushing down projects with completely disregard for Democratic principles, due process etc., like it happens in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Cuba etc. No matter how fancy those projects might be, we cannot take them as references in regard of "oh, the Chinese build 960km of HSR at a fraction of a cost in a fraction of the time we would build them".

If you are ready to trade your liberty to live under a dicatorship (you name it... North Korea, Venezuela, China etc.) with nice trains, go on. I preffer our higher costs and lawful approach to build such projects.
What a load of utter [email protected]

China spending trillions on the motorway network is OK though isn't it?
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Old January 25th, 2010, 09:24 PM   #1143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Sure:

United Kingdom (including Northern Ireland, excluding overseas possessions)
Population: 61.113.205 (2009)
Area: 244.820 kmē
Density: 246 ppl/kmē

United States (including Alaska and Hawaii, excluding Guam, P. Rico, Virgin Islands and American Samoa):
Population: 308.549.000 (2009, Census Bureau est.)
Area: 9.826.675 kmē
Density: 32 ppl/kmē

This explains, almost alone, many of the issues he wave been discussing here. America is huge, sparsely populated, scattered (two major population centers N.Y.C. and L.A. separated by 3800 km of land and two mountain ridges) and has plenty of land to grab on. UK doesn't.
Erm yeah but, what has this got to do with your previous stats? You said car ownership is the same and then posted stats that showed it isn't, and now your response to that is to point out that the USA is less dense.

Are you trying to say that; because the USA is less dense, half the drivers in the USA drive two cars simultaneously?

I think not. I don't think you know what you are trying to say.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 09:41 PM   #1144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
There are a lot of solutions for people who cannto drive due to illness, disabilities etc. Many wealthy cities in Houston Metro, for instance, have public services of modified vans that transport those who cannot drive around.

Remember that most physical disabilities do not preclude the use of a car, like deafness, paraplegy, lack of one arm and others. There a lot of handicap-aid solutions so these people can still drive with computer-aided mechanisms, adaptations and so on.

I'm all for acessibility, which is different than convenience. Nobody is talking albout shuttind down old subways because the cannot be feasible updated to accomodate people with reduced mobility, for instance.
Indeed, what a load of bullshit. So these measures are not market-distorting tactics? EVERYTHING that promotes the use of cars is alright with you because simply you love to drive too much? We have no problem with YOUR CHOICE but have problem with you imposing your choice onto everyone else.

Last edited by aab7772003; January 25th, 2010 at 10:21 PM.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 10:55 PM   #1145
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What a load of utter [email protected]

China spending trillions on the motorway network is OK though isn't it?
Motorways built with famine-waige paid workers are not an inch better too.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 11:00 PM   #1146
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Motorways built with famine-waige paid workers are not an inch better too.
Ah, so by your logic, road building is fundamentally evil too then?
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Old January 26th, 2010, 01:38 AM   #1147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If you are ready to trade your liberty to live under a dicatorship (you name it... North Korea, Venezuela, China etc.) with nice trains, go on. I preffer our higher costs and lawful approach to build such projects.
This has nothing to do with liberty or dictatorship. What about Denmark then? Or Switzerland? Or Germany? France? UK? People there trade their liberty and accept dictatorship for "nice trains"?

It's not a matter of a government doing something a certain way. It's a matter of a government knowing what to do. Long-term planning. It almost seems like something the U.S. can never understand.

So you've tried the car=freedom argument. You've tried rich v. poor argument. You've tried low-density argument. Now you're trying the political argument. And all this trying to say that driving is the only right thing to do.

No it's not. A multi-mode transport system is. We're not saying you can't drive. We're just saying that a nation as a whole can't rely on a single system just because that's what you're used to.

And btw, this debate has already occured in the Seattle Sound Transit Link Light Rail thread. If you want to see the results of the 10-page debate, here they are.

Last edited by HAWC1506; January 26th, 2010 at 01:45 AM.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 11:10 AM   #1148
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Hawc you've summed up the last 400 pages of this thread nicely there.

Can we please stop the pointless opinions and get back to dsicussing news or otherwise of the actual high speed rail plan in the USA, like the thread title suggests?

Does anybody actually have any news? Is there actually any news in the USA or is it all just Fox?
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Old January 26th, 2010, 11:22 AM   #1149
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No news yet, after all the tales of the fund being massivley oversubscribed nothing concrete seems to be materialising.

Last edited by WatcherZero; January 26th, 2010 at 09:48 PM.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 03:55 PM   #1150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Hawc you've summed up the last 400 pages of this thread nicely there.

Can we please stop the pointless opinions and get back to dsicussing news or otherwise of the actual high speed rail plan in the USA, like the thread title suggests?

Does anybody actually have any news? Is there actually any news in the USA or is it all just Fox?
Nice elitist slap at FOX there, lol. I suppose you are a fan of that cute guy on PMSNBC, what's his name? Oh yeah, Rachel Maddow.

But I digress. No news, and there won't be anytime soon. Remember what started all of this, an amount in a federal "stimulus" bill. This has very little to do with who needs or wants what. It comes down to money. And now that he got his wrist slapped even Comrade Prezident is talking about the deficit as though he actually cares about it. The money just isn't gonig to flow. The already appropriated money will get out for studies and such I would guess but it will take a long time before that turns into plans and longer still for any construction. HSR will happen here over time, but with the current financial situation in the US it won't happen any time soon.

All of this should and would and could and will and why and why not makes for great reading but we are broke, so it just isn't going to happen at any rapid pace any time soon. Unfortunately, them's the facts............fair and balanced.
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Old January 27th, 2010, 03:51 PM   #1151
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Originally Posted by FlyFish View Post
Nice elitist slap at FOX there, lol. I suppose you are a fan of that cute guy on PMSNBC, what's his name? Oh yeah, Rachel Maddow.
tbh from what I gather news in the USA seems to be biased, unsubstatiated opinion, labelled as news, whether that be left wing or right wing or whatever. Its hard enough in the UK tolerating the irrationality of news reports sometimes, and here they're required to be 'balanced' and get told off by the regulator if they're not. I can't imagine how annoying they'd become if they were allowed to make stuff up and get away with it.
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Old January 27th, 2010, 05:27 PM   #1152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFish View Post
Nice elitist slap at FOX there, lol. I suppose you are a fan of that cute guy on PMSNBC, what's his name? Oh yeah, Rachel Maddow.

But I digress. No news, and there won't be anytime soon. Remember what started all of this, an amount in a federal "stimulus" bill. This has very little to do with who needs or wants what. It comes down to money. And now that he got his wrist slapped even Comrade Prezident is talking about the deficit as though he actually cares about it. The money just isn't gonig to flow. The already appropriated money will get out for studies and such I would guess but it will take a long time before that turns into plans and longer still for any construction. HSR will happen here over time, but with the current financial situation in the US it won't happen any time soon.

All of this should and would and could and will and why and why not makes for great reading but we are broke, so it just isn't going to happen at any rapid pace any time soon. Unfortunately, them's the facts............fair and balanced.
you need to read the news more.

Quote:
Obama will announce high-speed rail in Tampa

By Alex Leary, Times Staff Writer

Published Wednesday, January 27, 2010

As widely assumed, President Barack Obama will use Thursday's visit to Tampa to announce Florida has secured high-speed rail funding.

A White House official did not say how much of the total $8 billion in stimulus funds Florida will get. The state asked for $2.5 billion for the line that would run from Orlando to Tampa and, possibly, Miami.

"This will be one of the largest boosts to the state's economy since Disney, since the interstate highway system," said U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson.

Obama's visit, which will include a town hall at University of Tampa, will coincide with announcements by administration officials across the country Thursday.

"Thirteen major corridors will receive awards on Thursday to help develop new high speed rail infrastructure or begin the transition to high speed rail," a White House official said. "In addition, smaller awards will also be made for improvements to portions of existing rail lines. Overall, thirty-one states will benefit from the awards which will lay the groundwork for a nationwide high speed rail system.

"The $8 billion in Recovery Act awards is part of an overall $13 billion high speed rail investment the president announced last year as part of his of his strategic plan for high speed rail. The other $5 billion would be funded through the annual budget process."

Florida has a mixed history with rail. Voters in 2000 approved spending for a bullet train for the state. But they squashed it four years later in a repeal vote backed by then-Gov. Jeb Bush.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politic...-tampa/1068518

The Tampa-Orlando line has already been studied and is next to shovel ready possibly beginning work early next year with a 2016 completion.
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Old January 27th, 2010, 05:28 PM   #1153
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
tbh from what I gather news in the USA seems to be biased, unsubstatiated opinion, labelled as news, whether that be left wing or right wing or whatever. Its hard enough in the UK tolerating the irrationality of news reports sometimes, and here they're required to be 'balanced' and get told off by the regulator if they're not. I can't imagine how annoying they'd become if they were allowed to make stuff up and get away with it.
The actual news programs are pretty much news. Each network has it's own lean but the news is the news. There was a quake in Haiti no matter what network you watch. Where it gets messy is the evening opinion shows, and they are what they are. FOX is the devil to people who lean hard left. To me, who leans right, NBC and CBS are unwatchable Obama cheerleaders. It depends on where you stand as to what is bad, but all have biases. No one can deny that with a straight face. Funny you mention the UK, to us here in the US, the BBC is seen as a pretty left leaning organization, especially with regard to it's environmental reporting.

And to keep on "track" here, there is still no hard news regarding the HSR in the US.
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Old January 27th, 2010, 05:30 PM   #1154
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[QUOTE=palindrome;50850069]you need to read the news more.



LOL, I ready the exactly five seconds after I posted.
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Old January 27th, 2010, 05:33 PM   #1155
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LOL, I ready the exactly five seconds after I posted.

lol

Anyways, i do agree with you for the most part. I will be surprised if we see anything significant tomorrow.
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Old January 27th, 2010, 05:46 PM   #1156
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lol

Anyways, I do agree with you for the most part. I will be surprised if we see anything significant tomorrow.
I think it's probably mostly a re-hash of the announcement that got this thread started in the first place. He's in trouble right now and he's trying for some good press. Florida is key for him at the moment. This rail thing may soften the blow of his plan to sh&tcan the new NASA moon plans.

I have stated about a million times on this thread that I am not in favor of the Gov't spending borrowed money on something like this but I will admit that I will be pleasantly surprised if this money actually builds something. I figured it would get used for impact studies, to settle environmental, emminant domain, and NIMBY lawsuits and things like that. If we have to spend borrowed money I would love to see something actually get built.

Then we can see how many of us backward thinking car worshipping environment killing greedy Americans will actually ride the thing once the novelty wears off....
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Old January 28th, 2010, 06:02 AM   #1157
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I thought it was kind of cool that Obama gave Florida High Speed Rail a shoutout during his State of the Union.
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Old January 28th, 2010, 06:25 AM   #1158
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I thought it was kind of cool that Obama gave Florida High Speed Rail a shoutout during his State of the Union.
Why Florida , they have no connecting networks , why not the Cascades Corridor or Upgrade the NEC? Our the Midwest Network or Cali networks , this is seriously ridiculous , and its going to be like the British HST , that run Diesel or Gas and not Electric like the Midwest or NE expansions .....ugh....

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Old January 28th, 2010, 06:44 AM   #1159
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Despite the fact that expansion in the Cascades would be nice IMHO. I find developements in railroad improvement in any area to be good.
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Old January 28th, 2010, 07:31 AM   #1160
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Why Florida , they have no connecting networks , why not the Cascades Corridor or Upgrade the NEC? Our the Midwest Network or Cali networks , this is seriously ridiculous , and its going to be like the British HST , that run Diesel or Gas and not Electric like the Midwest or NE expansions .....ugh....

~Corey
because of politics, thats y. florida voted for him in the election, barely. and now the latest poll there is at 49% DISAPPROVE, 45% approve.

pure politics
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