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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old March 15th, 2010, 11:29 PM   #1281
dl3000
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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
read the article. They're bidding on line contruction. Not moving stocks.
Ok I guess I misinterpreted. The way they said it it sounded like they wanted to build the line and provide the rolling stock.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 02:43 AM   #1282
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Originally Posted by dl3000 View Post
California is getting close but the high initial investment is scaring people.
The problem is that over decades politicians get used to put an initial low price tag every time they pushed any infrastructure project, because once you get the cranes lifting blocs of concrete, it is very unlikely not to get add-ons, like "well, we've already drilled 76% of the tunnel, we need the additional 24% of we'll lost all we've already invested."

It has been happing in railways, highways, airports, ports, etc., in Europe and America.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 06:10 AM   #1283
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Why shouldn't they build it, it's their money.
zing.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 10:22 AM   #1284
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I highly doubt Americans would want Chinese help. US is so sensitive anything regarding to China. The next thing you'll hear is national security.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 12:38 PM   #1285
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it's called cutting your nose off to spite your face...

The government could never do it in the face of workers unions... there's too many political obstacles, despite the obvious cost and speed advantages.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 03:59 PM   #1286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl3000 View Post
How is the Chinese technology mature if their own system is a mix of French, German and Japanese?
Why re-invent the wheel?

France, Germany, and Japan all made HSR what it is today, China is doing the next logical step in that and taking their tech and making work on mass, and what better place to start that than in a place with 1.7 billion people and a rather large land mass. The perfect show stock for selling HSR systems to the world.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 09:39 AM   #1287
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it's called cutting your nose off to spite your face...

The government could never do it in the face of workers unions... there's too many political obstacles, despite the obvious cost and speed advantages.
I bet they would offer one hell of a competitive bid package. No matter what, the technology must be outsourced. The only company remotely close is Bombardier and they're Canadian. I always figure the big HSR makers would be Alstom, Siemens, and I believe Hitachi makes Shinkansen. Most if not all of those have facilities in the USA, but they would probably have to be reconfigured for HSR production. The point is, they all employ Americans and the subcontractors would probably all be local.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 09:55 AM   #1288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zergcerebrates View Post
I highly doubt Americans would want Chinese help. US is so sensitive anything regarding to China. The next thing you'll hear is national security.
Yes, there will be some chest beating and accusations among some Americans, but the fact is, HSR technology, or just modern railway passenger stock building knowhow, has "left the station" already, so to speak, and the US needs any help it can get to catch up. I've come to the opinion that it doesn't matter which country gets a chance to build it, the result will be 100 times better than what exists now in the U.S. passenger train operations, which is seemingly mired in 1950's era, freight train centric, FRA-dominated groupthink.

Last edited by k.k.jetcar; March 17th, 2010 at 10:03 AM.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 10:47 AM   #1289
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Originally Posted by zergcerebrates View Post
I highly doubt Americans would want Chinese help. US is so sensitive anything regarding to China. The next thing you'll hear is national security.
I think they are as welcome as anybody in this process. But what is implicit in the piecemeal structure of our HSR system is that there will be different trains serving different markets, not the unified systems that exist elsewhere. That's fine for now but if HSR reaslly expands to a nationwide system, they will want a unified or at least, very similar systems. That's where the real bidding conflicts will come!
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Old March 17th, 2010, 02:28 PM   #1290
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Since no-one has built high speed rail lines in the USA before, local companies would have to figure things out from scratch, slowly and expensively, or get help from abroad. So there would be an opportunity for Chinese companies to bid for project management and prime contractor roles (supervising the local contractors who would be working on the ground), undercutting European and Japanese companies. Chinese contractors have built up experience in building high speed lines quickly and cheaply, for instance by assembling viaducts from prefabricated sections, and they can base their bids on a promise of speed and efficiency.
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Old March 19th, 2010, 01:10 AM   #1291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl3000 View Post
I bet they would offer one hell of a competitive bid package. No matter what, the technology must be outsourced. The only company remotely close is Bombardier and they're Canadian. I always figure the big HSR makers would be Alstom, Siemens, and I believe Hitachi makes Shinkansen. Most if not all of those have facilities in the USA, but they would probably have to be reconfigured for HSR production. The point is, they all employ Americans and the subcontractors would probably all be local.
The most competitive point of China's bid is to fully share HSR technology with GE, which would make GE a world HSR competitor overnight just like China has done recently.
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Old March 19th, 2010, 01:37 AM   #1292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gag Halfrunt View Post
Since no-one has built high speed rail lines in the USA before, local companies would have to figure things out from scratch, slowly and expensively, or get help from abroad. So there would be an opportunity for Chinese companies to bid for project management and prime contractor roles (supervising the local contractors who would be working on the ground), undercutting European and Japanese companies. Chinese contractors have built up experience in building high speed lines quickly and cheaply, for instance by assembling viaducts from prefabricated sections, and they can base their bids on a promise of speed and efficiency.
The bidder is highly likely a syndicate of GE and a Chinese company China MOR appointed.
http://www.genewscenter.com/content/...2&NewsAreaID=2
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Old March 19th, 2010, 02:12 AM   #1293
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Originally Posted by conc.man View Post
The most competitive point of China's bid is to fully share HSR technology with GE, which would make GE a world HSR competitor overnight just like China has done recently.
I have doubts since I do not believe any of the HSR forerunners would have transferred sensitive technology like on-board signaling system to PRC without a catch within the contract.
This system is built-in to the tracks so whoever wins the bid requires the necessary patents and/or pay fee to the actual patent owner to install them.
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Old March 19th, 2010, 07:27 PM   #1294
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Whatever works. GE would bring a lot of legitimacy to a Chinese bid.
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Old March 20th, 2010, 12:32 AM   #1295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I have doubts since I do not believe any of the HSR forerunners would have transferred sensitive technology like on-board signaling system to PRC without a catch within the contract.
This system is built-in to the tracks so whoever wins the bid requires the necessary patents and/or pay fee to the actual patent owner to install them.
I totally understand why you are skeptical but tech transfer is the key in all China deals. If you want to get your share from hundred of billion dollars you have to agree. Siemens is totally agree; apparently, Kawasaki is almost there; Alstom has been out.
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Old March 20th, 2010, 02:29 AM   #1296
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I totally understand why you are skeptical but tech transfer is the key in all China deals. If you want to get your share from hundred of billion dollars you have to agree. Siemens is totally agree; apparently, Kawasaki is almost there; Alstom has been out.
Well If I were the one negotiating I would place a limit on technological transfer to be used only within PRC domestic market so it would not be exported hurting potential markets. It makes no sense for either party to include international rights.
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Old March 20th, 2010, 08:36 AM   #1297
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Well If I were the one negotiating I would place a limit on technological transfer to be used only within PRC domestic market so it would not be exported hurting potential markets. It makes no sense for either party to include international rights.
But you were not the person negotiating.
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Old March 20th, 2010, 08:38 AM   #1298
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Originally Posted by strandeed View Post
it's called cutting your nose off to spite your face...

The government could never do it in the face of workers unions... there's too many political obstacles, despite the obvious cost and speed advantages.
The US needs to buy from a foreign country, if not China, then maybe Japan, Canada, France or Germany.
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Old March 20th, 2010, 08:27 PM   #1299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Well If I were the one negotiating I would place a limit on technological transfer to be used only within PRC domestic market so it would not be exported hurting potential markets. It makes no sense for either party to include international rights.
The question is what is the ratio of Chinese market to the rest of the world's?
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Old March 21st, 2010, 05:37 AM   #1300
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The question is what is the ratio of Chinese market to the rest of the world's?
No relationship whatsoever.
PRC may have demanded technical transfer for the domestic market so it will not have to be tied to foreign corporation to maintain the system but beyond that it's just plain stupid to even discuss about it.
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