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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 26th, 2010, 03:34 AM   #1381
hoosier
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What I don't understand about these South Bay peninsula residents is why they are opposed to the HSR project but don't bitch about the two major freeways that cut through their communities ( US 101 and I-280) or the non-electrified Caltrain rail lines that result in many deaths because they do not have grade-separated road crossings.

Also, the construction of the interstate highway system destroyed a lot of private property (and decimated the inner city) but it was built anyway because of its perceived overall societal benefits.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 12:37 PM   #1382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
Also, the construction of the interstate highway system destroyed a lot of private property (and decimated the inner city) but it was built anyway because of its perceived overall societal benefits.
The reasoning is as follows IMO:

Freeway: better access for my errands, my life will get easier. People like me would move in, but place would remains as is.

HSR: it will change my community, it will attract housing projects and it will make the place more crowded (e.g., by means of denser building arrangements).

Not say I agree or disagree with the logic. I do prefer low density and very-low density subdivisions on societal grounds of promoting a more private and reserved life, with fewer unwanted interaction with stranger; but at the same tame I think there should be instruments by which infrastructure projects could be built because society needs them, excluding things like changing the zoning laws to divert development to the vicinity of train stations, for instance.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 12:56 PM   #1383
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Changing the zone law around the station to promote development is the FIRST THING you need to do to promote transit. It pushes up property value around the station since more development drives more amenity around the station luring more people to live around the station.
Your reasoning is probably too car centric to comprehend what lies ahead with mass transit system oriented society like Japan.
You don't need to build shopping malls in the middle of nowhere to accommodate enough parking space for all drivers and the air pollution that comes along with it. It also brings back traditional service like front door delivery at fraction of present cost back making life more easier.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 01:23 PM   #1384
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Changing the zone law around the station to promote development is the FIRST THING you need to do to promote transit. It pushes up property value around the station since more development drives more amenity around the station luring more people to live around the station.
Your reasoning is probably too car centric to comprehend what lies ahead with mass transit system oriented society like Japan.
You don't need to build shopping malls in the middle of nowhere to accommodate enough parking space for all drivers and the air pollution that comes along with it. It also brings back traditional service like front door delivery at fraction of present cost back making life more easier.
Without bringing all my cards for promoting the car as the ultimate mean of realization of the notion of individuals as the ultimate subjects of rights (not communities, not cities), something that would derail the topic, I could firmly say, with a high degree of confidence, that this idea of selling mass transport as a social engineering project to change the way people live is misguided at best, totalitarian at worst - as so, it sparks resistance.

Even a relatively moderated person like me, who thinks there should be public transport systems in place to offer some options for those who can't/don't want to drive (provided they are financially sustainable and don't drain money from highway projects), and who would otherwise support a public network of high-speed tracks and stations with private (only) train operators, gets scared by this kind of discourse that the way I ideally live ("car centric") is bad, so I'm a bad person and should accept "correction" from transit pundits and live in a house without any private garden and get used to move around based on timetables, not on my own wish.

Then try to convince a less reasonable person like a Tea Partier of that, and you get a ballot initiative to kill such "social transforming" projects.

So, everything would be MUCH EASIER if nice projects like California HSR were sold the public as a transportation project to get folks faster (vs. car) or more reliably (vs. plane) from point A to point B, not as part of a "game-changer" agenda pushed by Berkley-wise radicals - something that, if scares me, will surely scares the average Joe in the area.

I know some people push rail in US with expectations that it would to the same good for the next 50 years as the Interstate system did in the 50's. However, one thing is to smash, cut and divided blighted neighborhoods plagued with disarray, violence, decay and poverty like some urban freeway projects did back then, where community revamping and sometimes dismantling would be justifiable as crime- and poverty- fighting strategies. However, you can't take that approach against middle-class suburbs. They are not "blighted and dangerous" places, their inhabitants have far more political clout, and they don't need to change they way they live inherently.

I'll end making my point that I do favor High Speed Rail at large, it is only an infrastructure project on itself. HSR is a nice and useful thing to have in town, spurs progress, attract business and can attract a bunch of wealth commuters who can afford daily trips costing US$ 120 each + taxis on each end. HSR has a very strong case to be built in America if stations are built with an airport-like mentality: huge integrated parking garages and plenty of rental cars (so people can drive to the origin station and pick up a rental car at the destination), amenities, nearby malls and hotels etc. The combination of interstate junctions + HSR stations could be very powerful to integrate a car-centric life into a HSR system, thus enabling people to use the train a mean to extend the range of their viable commutes or reducing their commuting time without adding to congestion - and all without trying to convert them to the gospel of European new urbanism while they pray in the church of the American Way.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 07:37 PM   #1385
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Most of the Keystone Corridor will be brought up to speeds of 110-40mph by the end of the decade and extended to Pittsburgh - Cleveland.

Here's a Replaced Interlock , that allows higher Speed Cross-overs

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4597724...19816/sizes/l/

Replaced Ties , possible 3rd track added in later.

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4597724...28722/sizes/l/

One of few crossings left , set to replaced with an Overpass to allow higher speeds

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4597724...59185/sizes/l/
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Old May 6th, 2010, 11:21 PM   #1386
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http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfranci...3/daily76.html

The president of Alstom's US subsidiary has been named as new CEO of California High Speed Railway Authority.

That's some conflict of interest here(President of bidding company becoming CHSRA's CEO), but this makes things look bad for Shinkansen and CRH380.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 03:14 AM   #1387
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My personal preference is Alstom anyway, so I don't really mind. I like Alstom and Siemen trains much better than the Shinkansen.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 04:19 AM   #1388
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that┤s a good move for Alstom, they┤ve already tried to persuade several countries across Americas but so far have little or no success at all... if this guy manages the bidding there is a real chance for Alstom.

The question and is who┤s monitors him, Arnold himself?
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Old May 7th, 2010, 05:07 AM   #1389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres_Low View Post
that┤s a good move for Alstom, they┤ve already tried to persuade several countries across Americas but so far have little or no success at all... if this guy manages the bidding there is a real chance for Alstom.

The question and is who┤s monitors him, Arnold himself?
Though he may be the CEO, he doesn't get to actually choose which vendor will provide the HSR trainsets or systems- that will be done by a group of board members- and hopefully their decision process will be transparent.

This development may be prove fortuitous for either Alstom or Siemens, but I think it's a wash for the Japanese bidders. JR Central with its N700i is not even interested in California, as its focusing on Florida, and Kawasaki Heavy is developing an export-only HSR trainset, which presumambly will be built to UIC standards to be competive with Velaro or AGV. JR East is focusing its efforts on Midwest HSR, touting its experience in running HSR in cold weather climates. The Chinese still have the benefit of low costs and the carrot of direct Chinese funding.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 07:19 AM   #1390
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California Proposed High Speed Rail

I Dunno If this was posted before, but does anyone know of the High Speed Rail In California That will connect LA with the Bay Area in 2 hours?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/bott...eedrailmap.jpg
the link:
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/
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Old May 7th, 2010, 08:28 AM   #1391
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I see you're in LA. Were you around in the 2008 election when the Prop 1a bond measure for HSR was approved by voters? That was what started this all, in addition of the election of Pres. Obama. It's quite old news. I'm sure there has been discussion of this on some threads, probably more in the context of nationwide HSR plans. If you are interested in more substantive discussion of CA HSR (rather than "that's so cool" and typical pissing contests here), I recommend the following blogs:

For political, economic, and general coverage:

http://www.cahsrblog.com/

For more technical discussions, but focusing on the Bay Area rather than the Southland :

http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/

*also check out the thread on US High Speed Rail plans- it can be good as long as those with political agendas keep their proselytizing to a minimum and the posts focus on planning, technical and operational matters.

Last edited by k.k.jetcar; May 7th, 2010 at 08:34 AM.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 12:19 PM   #1392
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I agree, the scenario in ten years can be totally different bidding could include new material also include new players right?

But as far as I can see people only worries about the rolling stock... what about the civil works, these come first, is there any construction company with the experience for this type of projects in ? or will the engineers be imported?
Many companies with actual experience in HSR will be needed if the bidding concept is the type: "project carried out in streches of lets say....20 miles each"
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Old May 7th, 2010, 05:24 PM   #1393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Though he may be the CEO, he doesn't get to actually choose which vendor will provide the HSR trainsets or systems- that will be done by a group of board members
Yes, but he exerts a significant influence over evaluation criteria.

For example, train crashworthiness is now a major safety factor, even though Japanese disagree and Japanese government's transportation minister argued against its importance in the US last month.

Quote:
JR Central with its N700i is not even interested in California, as its focusing on Florida
It is not known if FRA will enforce crashworthiness regulation in Florida. In California, definitely.

Quote:
Kawasaki Heavy is developing an export-only HSR trainset, which presumambly will be built to UIC standards to be competive with Velaro or AGV.
Which will probably not be ready in time.

At this time, Shinkansen is slower and less crashworthy than its rivals.

Quote:
The Chinese still have the benefit of low costs and the carrot of direct Chinese funding.
Chinese are pretty out of US projects, their first indigenous model based on CRH2 E2 Shinkansen design won't enter service in China until 2013, and their crashworthiness is inferior even to Shinkansen.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 05:38 PM   #1394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

Without bringing all my cards for promoting the car as the ultimate mean of realization of the notion of individuals as the ultimate subjects of rights (not communities, not cities), something that would derail the topic, I could firmly say, with a high degree of confidence, that this idea of selling mass transport as a social engineering project to change the way people live is misguided at best, totalitarian at worst - as so, it sparks resistance...
Forcing people to drive is totalitarian; many people actually see driving as dreaded necessity. Your wet-dream life-style is simply another form of social engineering.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 06:56 PM   #1395
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Here are some points all tenders will need to address in order to be the final appointee for CHSR.

1.Crash worthiness which may or may not be a major issue based on exclusiveness of rail usage.

2.Speed, and capacity

3.Production facility within USA

We probably all agree on upon the first three
Here are other sticking points that needs to be addressed

4.Built-in earthquake early warning and automated stop system.

Finally
5.Construction assist loan offer

Since the State of California is pretty tight on budget, 5. will also be crucial deciding factor.
Comparing any train sets that are in production at this moment is very much useless since construction hasn't even started yet and will probably take another 10 years to complete.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #1396
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I agree, the scenario in ten years can be totally different bidding could include new material also include new players right?

But as far as I can see people only worries about the rolling stock... what about the civil works, these come first, is there any construction company with the experience for this type of projects in ? or will the engineers be imported?
Many companies with actual experience in HSR will be needed if the bidding concept is the type: "project carried out in streches of lets say....20 miles each"
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Old May 7th, 2010, 07:48 PM   #1397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
1.Crash worthiness which may or may not be a major issue based on exclusiveness of rail usage.
It is, since there will be shared rail sections.

Quote:
2.Speed, and capacity
220 mph(352 km/h) service speed required.

Quote:
3.Production facility within USA
All the prominent bidders already manufacture in the US.

Quote:
Comparing any train sets that are in production at this moment is very much useless since construction hasn't even started yet and will probably take another 10 years to complete.
Foreign government construction loan is tied to selection of their train models, so the train model must be selected at the earliest stage to put finances together. Which is like wthin the next two years.

Basically, French, German, and Koreans will offer slightly modified versions of what's in service in their home countries, so their cost is lower.

US-market Shinkansen model, if Japanese decided to do a export-only model, could be the priciest since the development and manufacturing cost is not spread at home market and have a later deliver date than its competitors. In other word, US-specific Shinkansen's risk in terms of cost and delivery would be higher than other bids.

This is why there is a pessimistic view of Shinkensen's US export prospects nowadays.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T100506005840.htm

Quote:
The government will also host U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood from Sunday to Wednesday to have him ride the Shinkansen and maglev trains.

However, JR Tokai Chairman Yoshi-yuki Kasai, who accompanied Maehara to the United States, told reporters, "Japan's efforts lag behind other countries."

Another JR official also expressed concern, saying, "Japanese companies might not win any U.S. train contracts."

As an example of the stiff competition, a Florida high-speed train line has 22 companies bidding for the contract.

Maehara said, "I thought the number would be five or six at most.
On the trip I got a glimpse of how fierce the competition in the high-speed train business is."
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Old May 8th, 2010, 04:02 AM   #1398
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I have a feeling alot of this complaining by Japanese HSR makers is to try to get the government more on board financially and politically to aid their efforts. In general, Japanese makers have traditionally focused on the domestic market and built trains to domestic standards ("Galapagos effect"). Now that HSR has become the trend du jour worldwide (amazing how a presidential election and high oil prices can change things eh?), Japanese firms are playing catch up with European firms, which by nature of their geography, have always catered to international markets, and Asian firms (China Inc./Korea Inc.), which have coordinated, strategic government efforts to export their HSR technology.

As for crashworthiness*, a firm like JR Central is focusing on Florida because the line will be completely separated from pre-existing rail lines, and there will be no grade crossings.- this is the operating philosophy of 90 % or so of Japanese HSR lines, and is the ideal situation for HSR to be competitive with airlines. Thus heavier (and more energy inefficient) car bodies are not necessary. The FRA is at the moment still an anachronistic, freight rr centered bureaucracy, and they have yet to draw up concrete standards for HSR. They eventually will, and they are expected to allow lighter weight carbodies on completely grade separated lines, similar to standards on metro and subway lines.

*this term in itself can be considered an oxymoron at the speeds that HSR operate at- the focus should be more on crash avoidance, which is the emphasis in the world outside of North America.

Last edited by k.k.jetcar; May 8th, 2010 at 04:57 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 04:35 AM   #1399
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Quote:
But as far as I can see people only worries about the rolling stock... what about the civil works, these come first, is there any construction company with the experience for this type of projects in ? or will the engineers be imported?
Many companies with actual experience in HSR will be needed if the bidding concept is the type: "project carried out in streches of lets say....20 miles each"
Andres, you ask good questions. People are more interested in the easy to comprehend, glamorous aspects of HSR trainsets ("how fast does it go?" "oooh! that shape is so sexy", "that nose is too ugly", yadayadayada...). But as you say, civil engineering and geography are in fact more important, as that will go a long way towards determining the type of trainsets required. I have a feeling that U.S. firms will largely be used to build the infrastructure, for political reasons- to satisfy labor unions and politicians who want to advertise their efforts to "give good jobs to red-blooded 'Mericans", and the like. Of course, foreign firms will likely be on board to provide expertise and consultancy, even supervisory roles. But (at least in California), the record on building large projects is not good in terms of cost overruns and poor design. I think there will be much argument and controversy ahead.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 04:49 AM   #1400
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I have a feeling alot of this complaining by Japanese HSR makers is to try to get the government more on board financially and politically to aid their efforts.
Not at all. Japanese government already agreed to provide construction financing for any project that Japanese companies win in the US. After all, it is same Japanese government that is loaning $40 billion to construct the national Shinkansen line in Vietnam, so sparing $12 billion for California is not a problem.

It is actually Koreans who are having problems with $12 billion loan requirement for the California project, while Chinese and Japanese governments already pledged to make the construction loans to California should their respective bids win.

Quote:
As for crashworthiness, a firm like JR Central is focusing on Florida because the line will be completely separated from pre-existing rail lines
JR Central is bidding on Florida project because it is being told to do so. Japanese government divided the US into several territories and gave each Japanese rail company the exclusive right to bid on projects in each territory to ensure that no two Japanese companies bid on same project.

Quote:
Thus heavier (and more energy inefficient) car bodies are not necessary.
It depends on what they are planning with second stage of construction.
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