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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
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Old May 8th, 2010, 05:16 AM   #1401
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For China and Japan, providing loans is not that much of a problem and may even be beneficial to dump off some of the present currency surplus completely unrelated to the project.
These two nation with vast amount of US treasury bonds stocked to offset the trade imbalance merely needs to provide these bonds to the state as deliverable. This will be accounted as cash flow on the state budget balance sheet.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 07:12 AM   #1402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Not at all. Japanese government already agreed to provide construction financing for any project that Japanese companies win in the US. After all, it is same Japanese government that is loaning $40 billion to construct the national Shinkansen line in Vietnam, so sparing $12 billion for California is not a problem.

It is actually Koreans who are having problems with $12 billion loan requirement for the California project, while Chinese and Japanese governments already pledged to make the construction loans to California should their respective bids win.


JR Central is bidding on Florida project because it is being told to do so. Japanese government divided the US into several territories and gave each Japanese rail company the exclusive right to bid on projects in each territory to ensure that no two Japanese companies bid on same project.

Hypermiler, if the Japanese government is so on top of things in terms of support for domestic HSR builders, then why are the firms publicly stating they have tough odds and need more help, or Transport Minister Maehara seemed "surprised" at the level of competition? You seem to think that some old style industrial policy ala MITI is still being used, unless you have some inside info to the workings of the MLIT in Kasumigaseki.

You are right about firms planning to divide their efforts, though I think JR Central is more independent in their decision making- they hired a US consultant firm early on, which helped them identify which markets were best suited for their product- which would be better than some Tokyo-based bureaucrat's recommendation.

Quote:
It depends on what they are planning with second stage of construction
Which is anyone's guess/speculation- which is cheap. Concretly, what we do know now is that the stretch from Tampa to Orlando will be completely grade separated. Ideally, the stretch to the eastern shore linking with Miami, Fort Lauderdale, et al will be built to similar standards. You don't want to use existing track shared with heavy freight trains of CSX or FEC, which is deadly to any HSR plans regardless of builder, and traditional, slow commuter rail like Sunrail, which is a hindrance. Not to mention grade crossings- they simply don't belong on any new 21st century HSR line!

Last edited by k.k.jetcar; May 8th, 2010 at 07:33 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 10:55 AM   #1403
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Shinkansen have the fastest acceleration, most energy efficient, and the safest record of all HSR systems. As for speed Shinkansens do not go slower than the other HSR, they run slower in Japan due to noise pollution and more frequent stops.

Infact when it comes to speed records the Shinkansen holds the conventional speed record (not modified like the TGV 574.8 km/h run) at 443 km/h.

Finally the Japanese government is showing more support for Japanese companies as hypermiller's link says Govt steps up Japan-brand sales efforts, something they have only started since this year and did not do before (which is why there is an article on them doing it now in the first place).
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Old May 8th, 2010, 01:06 PM   #1404
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Thank you NihonKitty, you put it more succinctly than any long winded responses from me

You also bring up a point that is often lost to many on comparing HSR types- the false assumption that higher top speed makes a trainset "better" than others. Fact is, most high speed trains spend little time of their operation running at their maximum design speed. This is because they must accelerate often and brake often as a matter of course due to station stops and traffic patterns, not to mention curves and gradients. So actually, average operating speed, and importantly, acceleration rates are more critical to effective HSR operation. Any competent railcar builder can run their HSR trains at super high speeds, but few railways run them at those speeds in normal service- it would impose too much wear on track and catenary, as well as increase trainset maintenance costs- minuses that far outweigh any positives gained. Even China, which claims to have the best high speed track in the world (and it sure looks that way from pictures), slowed down their HSR trainsets after initial fanfare pre-Beijing Olympics. In the end, builder claims of having the fastest trainset is just hype. One hopes agencies and governments tasked with choosing a trainset builder look at the best fit for their operating conditions, regardless of top speed. That may be (for example) Siemens for California, JR Central/Nippon Sharyo for Florida, or Alstom for Midwest HSR. There should be no one size fits all way of procurement.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 01:22 PM   #1405
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Quote:
Chinese are pretty out of US projects, their first indigenous model based on CRH2 E2 Shinkansen design won't enter service in China until 2013, and their crashworthiness is inferior even to Shinkansen.
Those are fighting words. May I suggest you provide proof of such inferior standards??
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Old May 8th, 2010, 01:44 PM   #1406
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An Acela & MARC Express Train @ 110mph (177kph) future 190mph (305kph)

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Old May 8th, 2010, 02:11 PM   #1407
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Chinese are pretty out of US projects, their first indigenous model based on CRH2 E2 Shinkansen design won't enter service in China until 2013, and their crashworthiness is inferior even to Shinkansen.
To me this is a pointless discussion. what is safer on impact? an Airbus or a Boeing? Forget for a moment the american safety authority which demands and requirements are outdated and are not compatible with HSR.
You can have a tank on rails or a fast and light train but both things at the same time it just impossible.

Florida´s approach to HSR has more sense and that is why JR and other are more interested in:
- line dedicated only to HS passenger trains
- a proper security system (like ERMTS or similar)
- no level crossing (not mandatory if signalling imporves)
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Old May 8th, 2010, 02:55 PM   #1408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Those are fighting words. May I suggest you provide proof of such inferior standards??
There is no point to reason with HyperMiler on that, as he's got a huge complex when it comes to China. The CRH2 based CRH380 will enter into service when the Beijing-Shanghai HSR line finishes construction, which is 2011, next year. Sightings of intensive testing of it has been recently reported by railway fans.

There are in fact currently three 380km/h level rolling-stock developments in China, one based on CRH2, one based on CRH3, and one in collaboration with Bombardier. It's conceivable that the CRH3-based CRH380 will soon hit the export-market as well.

One technical aspect that is in favor of the Chinese offer, which hasn't been mentioned, is that the HSR line in California will have many tunnels because the state is not exactly flat. The chinese had to deal with problems associated with high-speed travel in and out of tunnels in a way no other country had to deal with (on the Wuhan-Guangzhou line, especially). In fact, the air-tightness of the chinese train cabins, a crucial factor for trains shooting into a tunnel at 220miles/hour, is the best in the world.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 06:05 PM   #1409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
then why are the firms publicly stating they have tough odds and need more help, or Transport Minister Maehara seemed "surprised" at the level of competition?
1. Japanese railway companies can shift the blame on government if their bids fail.
2. Japanese diplomacy is indeed ineffective. Japan of 2010 is no longer the Japan of 1985.

Quote:
Which is anyone's guess/speculation- which is cheap. Concretly, what we do know now is that the stretch from Tampa to Orlando will be completely grade separated.
For shorter lines, yes.
For longer lines, less likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
Shinkansen have the fastest acceleration, most energy efficient, and the safest record of all HSR systems.
That requires its own dedicated railway.

Quote:
Infact when it comes to speed records the Shinkansen holds the conventional speed record
That's a Fastech360 experimental train. Regular Shinkansen models aren't that fast.

Quote:
As for speed Shinkansens do not go slower than the other HSR, they run slower in Japan due to noise pollution and more frequent stops.
Japanese highspeed railways have smaller minimum curvature radius, thus a lower top speed rating of 300 km/h. Tilting enables a 20 km/h speed gain to 320 km/h, but that's the absolute limit on revenue service speed.

All the later-date highspeed rails constructed to Euro standard have a speed rating of 350 km/h.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres_Low View Post
You can have a tank on rails or a fast and light train but both things at the same time it just impossible.
So the compromise is the Euro standard, which Japanese cannot comply at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
The CRH2 based CRH380 will enter into service when the Beijing-Shanghai HSR line finishes construction, which is 2011
Then you should fear for your life riding in an untested train like CRH380.

Quote:
Sightings of intensive testing of it has been recently reported by railway fans.
If the prototype began testing recently, then you would see it enter service for another 4 years at the earliest. But this being China, who knows. They may decide to conduct tests with real paying passengers inside to make it as realistic as possible.

Quote:
It's conceivable that the CRH3-based CRH380 will soon hit the export-market as well.
Siemens won't let Chinese export.

Quote:
In fact, the air-tightness of the chinese train cabins, a crucial factor for trains shooting into a tunnel at 220miles/hour, is the best in the world.
Pushing aside the validity of this claim, CRH380 has no place in the US because.

1. It violates foreign IP.(Improper and unauthorized utilization of parts from E2 and Velaro CN)
2. Americans want prior sales record; they don't want to be the first user, and CRH380 has no prior sales record. Vietnam rejected CRH380 and selected Shinkansen, while Brazil is said to be leaning KTX2 from local media reports.
3. CRH380 is obviously a Shinkansen derivative and does not meet Euro regulations like Shinkansen on which it is based on.

Chinese bullet train is like Chinese car; everyone talks of an impending Tsunami of cheap Chinese cars in the US and Europe, yet there are no Chinese cars being sold in the US and Europe. Why? Can't meet safety and environmental regulations.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 09:36 PM   #1410
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Now you see how saying some positive things about Chinese trains has the effect of pushing the button on a hate-spewing machine, making it go wild like this . Siemens has recently turned from a competitor to a junior partner with a chinese consortium in a bid to build HSR in the middle east, so that' that. Anyhow, have fun with him, guys.

Last edited by Ariel74; May 8th, 2010 at 09:48 PM.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 11:14 PM   #1411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Siemens has recently turned from a competitor to a junior partner with a chinese consortium in a bid to build HSR in the middle east, so that' that.
That shows to everyone how ignorant you are.

Siemens split from Saudi-based Bin Laden consortium to join Chinese consortium as the rolling stock and signal system provider for Phase II contract.

Yes, Chinese are bidding to construct the railway in Saudi Arabia, but are NOT providing rolling stocks and signal system. This is exactly the same arrangement like the Phase I contract, which Chinese also won, but the rolling stock and infrastructure provider is Alstom. Chinese have a similar arrangement in Turkey, where they are constructing some portion of Turkish high speed railway as a construction subcontractor, but rolling stocks are Italian, Spanish and Korean.

This is NOT what Americans are asking for, American construction companies will build the US high speed railway, but foreign companies will provide the rolling stocks. This is why there is no room for Chinese bidders in USA, because Chinese can't provide rolling stocks that Americans are seeking, and Americans do not require Chinese railway construction service.
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Old May 9th, 2010, 01:17 AM   #1412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Siemens split from Saudi-based Bin Laden consortium to join Chinese consortium as the rolling stock and signal system provider for Phase II contract.

Yes, Chinese are bidding to construct the railway in Saudi Arabia, but are NOT providing rolling stocks and signal system.
There is in fact no point responding to someone like the HyperMiler who despises facts. But let me just set the record straight for people on this forum, so they know who they are dealing with.

Siemens is not providing the rolling stocks in its joint bid. From the financial times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ae804264-3...lick_check=1):

Quote:
Siemens joins China bid for Saudi rail link
By Jamil Anderlini in Beijing
Published: March 16 2010 13:56 | Last updated: March 16 2010 18:50
Siemens has dropped a bid to supply trains and equipment for the $7bn Mecca-to-Medina high-speed railway line project in Saudi Arabia, opting to join a Chinese consortium bidding for the work.

In a sign of the growing global competitiveness of Chinese rail manufacturers, Siemens abandoned its own bid as part of a consortium with the Saudi Binladin Group.

Instead, it has joined a bid led by state-owned China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock Corporation for the second phase of the Haramain high-speed rail project, according to people familiar with the situation.

Siemens will provide signalling and electrification equipment to the Chinese consortium, which also includes China Railway Construction Corp and the Beijing Railway Administration.

The 450km railway will link Islam’s two holiest sites via the port of Jeddah and will ease congestion during the annual Hajj pilgrimage, when more than 2.5m people make the journey to Mecca.

The Chinese bid is seen as the frontrunner – China Railway Construction Corp, which is also state-owned, was part of a consortium that won a $1.8bn contract to build the first phase of the project last year.

“Siemens realised when China threw its hat in the ring, that they were unlikely to win so they decided to join them rather than let one of their competitors team up with the Chinese bidder,” said one person involved in the project.

France’s Alstom and South Korea’s Hyundai and Samsung are also bidding for the second phase of Haramain, according to a person close to the situation. Siemens said it was unable to comment on the project because of the ongoing tender.

Final bids for the project are due in on May 1.

Analysts said Siemens’ decision to hitch its wagon to the Chinese bid was a sign of how competitive the Chinese rail industry has become and how state backing from Beijing helps in winning contracts abroad.

A series of bids by state-owned Chinese rail companies in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere have all been co-ordinated by China’s Railway Ministry. Two $1.8bn contracts were announced last year during a visit to the Kingdom by Hu Jintao, China’s president.
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Old May 9th, 2010, 01:54 AM   #1413
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HSR network map

I do not know whether it has been already posted here, but this is the map of proposed HSR network in the US by US High speed rail association. It shows more than 17 000 miles of dedicateh HS track.



I would like to ask you if it is possible to take such a plans seriously or it is just idealized vision of HSR enthusiasts.
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Old May 9th, 2010, 03:09 AM   #1414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Siemens is not providing the rolling stocks in its joint bid. From the financial times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ae804264-3...lick_check=1):
Good for them, then Chinese bid has almost no chance of winning.

I did take some time to read up on Saudi high speed rail project, and this is what's happening.

Phase I Civil ground work : Basically, the winning contractor builds rail way and 5 stations from Mecca to Medina. Chinese does railway work, while Alstom does electrical work(I thought Alstorm was supplying rolling stock, sorry).

Phase II Equipment & Operation : The winning contractor gets to supply rolling stocks, signaling system, maintenance facility, and 10~12 years worth of trains operations service.

This is the cream of this project and Chinese are bidding to supply their rolling stock against TGV, Velaro, Talgo 350, and KTX2.

So if the Chinese does manage to beat the likes of TGV and Velaro, my hats off. But that's highly unlikely because Saudi high speed rail is scheduled to enters service in 2012.

For more info on Phase II, http://www.saudirailexpansion.com/sa...hhr_phase2.pdf
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Old May 9th, 2010, 03:22 AM   #1415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eminencia View Post
I do not know whether it has been already posted here, but this is the map of proposed HSR network in the US by US High speed rail association. It shows more than 17 000 miles of dedicateh HS track.



I would like to ask you if it is possible to take such a plans seriously or it is just idealized vision of HSR enthusiasts.
Most definitely HSR enthusiasts daydreaming I am not sure the scale of the network even makes sense for the US in the short to medium term (in 100 years, maybe). On the east and west coasts however, HSR makes sense even now, but the idea will be up against shortage of funding and ideology, and I am personally not counting on there being any substantial regional HSR-network in the states for the next 20 years. But I am happy to be proven wrong, especially when it comes to the west and east coasts.
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Old May 9th, 2010, 03:43 AM   #1416
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CRH380 Wiki is up, in Chinese. Linked via Google Translate
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Old May 9th, 2010, 03:57 AM   #1417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eminencia View Post
I do not know whether it has been already posted here, but this is the map of proposed HSR network in the US by US High speed rail association. It shows more than 17 000 miles of dedicateh HS track.



I would like to ask you if it is possible to take such a plans seriously or it is just idealized vision of HSR enthusiasts.
wow, I wish it was true but it is obviously a wet dream. Chinese are building approximately at 20,000km dedicated high speed rail network and the cost estimates are around 700 billion $. Something like this in USA will cost at least twice of that. I dont see the money and more importantly political will for that. If Obama suggest something like that GOP will burn him. The Obama Rail Most feasible high speed line in USA is the California one right now. Hopefully, I will be wrong



By the way, hey hyper, Chinese high speed rail network rulezzz!! It is the the most modern, the longest, the fastest :p
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Old May 9th, 2010, 06:55 AM   #1418
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I think just one third of that network built by 2050, when I am an old man, would be a victory. 110mph lines through the Rocky Mountains are a pipe dream IMO.
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Old May 9th, 2010, 04:38 PM   #1419
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@Hypermiller The 443 km/h record was made in 1996 by conventional Shinkansen, not modified (and not the fastech 360 which is 2005/2006). The fastech 360 found it not feasible in JP to run at 360 km/h because of tunnel boom (noise pollution), ballast(?) etc, so the new E5 in 2011/12 will run at 320 km/h (operational speed) compared to N700 at 300 km/h (sanyo).

BTW on november 16, 2009 JR demonstrated that the N700 can run at 332 km/h.

Also I would like to add when it comes to the Florida HSR plan Shinkansen would be good (I don't know about other ones). This is the Florida Plan

"Trains with a top speed of 168 mph (270 km/h) to 186 mph (299 km/h) would run on dedicated rail lines alongside the state's existing highway network".

Dedicated rail, and the speeds match.
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Last edited by ukiyo; May 10th, 2010 at 12:48 AM.
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Old May 9th, 2010, 08:59 PM   #1420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
wow, I wish it was true but it is obviously a wet dream. Chinese are building approximately at 20,000km dedicated high speed rail network and the cost estimates are around 700 billion $. Something like this in USA will cost at least twice of that. I dont see the money and more importantly political will for that. If Obama suggest something like that GOP will burn him. The Obama Rail Most feasible high speed line in USA is the California one right now. Hopefully, I will be wrong
As I have been saying all along, the price of fuel will be the wild card in all of this. If/when the market for petroleum-based fuels goes nuts like it kind of did a couple of years ago, you'll see more of this happen sooner than later.

Mike
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