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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 9th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #1421
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@mgk920: I'd not throw everything in fuel prices. Europe have had average fuel prices that are 3X (US$ 7-9/gallon) those in America, and people keep driving there.

High-speed rail is not a substitute for car commutes, but to air travel. That might open other opportunities. No, people will not spend 16h on a high-speed New York to Los Angeles trains, but they might choose a HS train on, say Dallas-Oklahoma City or Seattle-Portland routes.
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Old May 10th, 2010, 12:30 AM   #1422
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
@mgk920: I'd not throw everything in fuel prices. Europe have had average fuel prices that are 3X (US$ 7-9/gallon) those in America, and people keep driving there.

High-speed rail is not a substitute for car commutes, but to air travel. That might open other opportunities. No, people will not spend 16h on a high-speed New York to Los Angeles trains, but they might choose a HS train on, say Dallas-Oklahoma City or Seattle-Portland routes.
He mean't Commuter Rail / More LRT for shorter and long distance would be High Speed.

I filmed my first Acela train yesterday.

EB Acela Express to [email protected] Secacus JCT - 100mph

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Old May 10th, 2010, 01:39 AM   #1423
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Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
@Hypermiller The 443 km/h record was made in 1996 by conventional Shinkansen, not modified
Actually it was one of a kind experimental train called 300X. It's on display somewhere in Japan. Regular Shinkansen trains can't go that fast. Sorry for the confusion, since 300X and Fastech360 both share same class number, Class 395.

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The fastech 360 found it not feasible in JP to run at 360 km/h because of tunnel boom (noise pollution), ballast(?) etc, so the new E5 in 2011/12 will run at 320 km/h (operational speed) compared to N700 at 300 km/h (sanyo).
Japanese Shinkansen track is older than other high speed rail tracks built in the 90s.

The very design of Japanese Shinkansen tracks with small curve radius doesn't support high-speed service like newer tracks in other countries. This is why Shinkansen has fallen behind competitors in speed race; German, Korean, and Chinese domestic tracks all support 350 km/h revenue service, so rolling stock makers originating from these countries have a reason to continue boosting speed to serve their domestic lines.

Japanese rolling stock makers have no incentive to support 350 km/h revenue service because Japanese domestic tracks are capped at 300 km/h, 320 km/h with tilting, so it was not pursued with their designs, even with the latest models like E5 and E6.

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Dedicated rail, and the speeds match.
Which will most likely be linked with other railways.
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Old May 10th, 2010, 01:45 AM   #1424
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E5 has 320 km/h operating speed, tilting or not.

It was a conventional train which I'm sure you know what it means but it is not a commercial train that is correct. As the fastech 360 showed the reasons for not being able to run at above 320 km/h is: Noise pollution (tunnel boom), Ballast and overhead cables. Since every plan I saw in US does not have a planned speed above 300 km/h an hour I don't see what the issue is anyways. The future for rail in Japan (when it comes to speed) is maglev..which we also hold the speed record for..

The Shinkansen has many pluses

#1 Fastest acceleration
#2 Most energy efficient which Obama says is important
#3 Best Safety Record
#4 Smooth ride (because where motors are placed though if I remember correctly the siemens velaro included this).
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Old May 10th, 2010, 02:31 AM   #1425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
The Shinkansen has many pluses

#1 Fastest acceleration
#2 Most energy efficient which Obama says is important
#3 Best Safety Record
#4 Smooth ride (because where motors are placed though if I remember correctly the siemens velaro included this).
Absolutely. especially (2) and (3) are extremely attractive features of Shinkansen for the political audience they are being sold to. In fact, if we are talking about trains already running, the French manufacturer has an older generation technology. Shinkansen and Siemens are the leaders, if we only focus on technology. But very strangely, the French TGV is better known in the US than its more advanced counterparts in other countries. It's probably another manifestation of the silly and irrational romanticization of anything French on the part of Americans, in addition to the vanity of the French for keeping useless records
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Old May 10th, 2010, 02:50 AM   #1426
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One point, Shinkansen runs on various routes,the oldest and most famous being the tokaido line which was inaugurated in 1964.
This route have 2500m radius corners which prohibits trains going faster than 260Km/h without tilt and 280Km/h with tilt but the routes which were built after all adopted 4000m radius corners making them possible for passing up to 350km/h.
(Kyushu route maybe an exception due to it's steep gradient)
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Old May 10th, 2010, 03:48 AM   #1427
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
This route have 2500m radius corners which prohibits trains going faster than 260Km/h without tilt and 280Km/h with tilt but the routes which were built after all adopted 4000m radius corners making them possible for passing up to 350km/h.
2500 m : 260 km/h
4000 m : 300 km/h
7000 m : 350 km/h
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Old May 10th, 2010, 03:56 AM   #1428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
2500 m : 260 km/h
4000 m : 300 km/h
7000 m : 350 km/h
Read this thesis.

http://www.iricen.gov.in/projects/72...f%20Curves.pdf

Page 5 and conclusion

Quote:
 High speed curves design can not be done in isolation; but to be done as an integral part along with the rolling stock.
With heavier rolling stocks and/or locomotive in particular, larger radius is needed to compensate wear and tear.
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Old May 10th, 2010, 10:42 AM   #1429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
As the fastech 360 showed the reasons for not being able to run at above 320 km/h is: Noise pollution (tunnel boom), Ballast and overhead cables.
Eh? Would you care to expand a bit please? I could see how noise levels could make ultra-high speeds undesirable, but what's the issue with the cables?
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Old May 10th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #1430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

High-speed rail is not a substitute for car commutes, but to air travel. That might open other opportunities. No, people will not spend 16h on a high-speed New York to Los Angeles trains, but they might choose a HS train on, say Dallas-Oklahoma City or Seattle-Portland routes.
People spend several days _driving_ across the US. If the nuisances involved in air travel keep increasing we might see a lot of people opt for a 16h train ride, provided they can spend 8 of these 16 hours lying flat, and the rest of the time in the bar, the restaurant or watching a movie...
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Old May 10th, 2010, 05:05 PM   #1431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
Since every plan I saw in US does not have a planned speed above 300 km/h an hour
Planned top speed is 220 mph(352 km/h). 220 mph is the speed California and Floria railway authorities are advertising to sell their projects to public.

Quote:
The future for rail in Japan (when it comes to speed) is maglev
The rest of world can't afford maglev.

Quote:
#1 Fastest acceleration
Because of lighter weight made possible by filmy construction.

Quote:
#2 Most energy efficient which Obama says is important
Because of lighter weight made possible by filmy construction.

Quote:
#3 Best Safety Record
There are a number of automobile crash accidents reported on mini-shinkansen that run on shared conventional tracks, so Japanese aren't immune to crashes like some would like to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
the French manufacturer has an older generation technology.
Right now, Alstom has to offer TGV. From 2012, they will offer AGV, the most advanced high speed train available for sale.
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Old May 10th, 2010, 06:16 PM   #1432
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But Japan still holds title of no fatality related accidents with car crashes and a ride near the epicenter of a M6 earthquake EVEN with "FILMY CONSTRUCTION".

AGV the most advance high speed train available??
LOL you must be joking.
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Old May 10th, 2010, 06:32 PM   #1433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Planned top speed is 220 mph(352 km/h). 220 mph is the speed California and Floria railway authorities are advertising to sell their projects to public.


The rest of world can't afford maglev.


Because of lighter weight made possible by filmy construction.


Because of lighter weight made possible by filmy construction.


There are a number of automobile crash accidents reported on mini-shinkansen that run on shared conventional tracks, so Japanese aren't immune to crashes like some would like to believe.


Right now, Alstom has to offer TGV. From 2012, they will offer AGV, the most advanced high speed train available for sale.
High speed railways should have 100% dedicated lines without any crossing anyway. Elevated lines should be the standard if you want to increase the safety standards. Prevention of accident is much much more important than the resistance to a crush. For efficiency you need a light weight design. By your logic we should travel in main battle tanks. Do you think Velaro or AGV or Acela can handle 220mph crush???
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Old May 10th, 2010, 06:50 PM   #1434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
High speed railways should have 100% dedicated lines without any crossing anyway. Elevated lines should be the standard if you want to increase the safety standards. Prevention of accident is much much more important than the resistance to a crush. For efficiency you need a light weight design. By your logic we should travel in main battle tanks. Do you think Velaro or AGV or Acela can handle 220mph crush???
Not fiercely a crush, but just knowing that derailments do not become disasters helps. For instance the articulated shape of TGVs and AGVs (cars are tied together with little freedom of movement) prevents from jacknifing: the train just goes straight until it stops by itself. There have been 3 high-speed TGV derailments (>250km/h), no train car overturned, no casualty.
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Old May 10th, 2010, 06:58 PM   #1435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
High speed railways should have 100% dedicated lines without any crossing anyway.
But there is the reality of money issues.

For incremental build-up approach taken up by most countries, track sharing is inevitable.

Quote:
Do you think Velaro or AGV or Acela can handle 220mph crush???
Train to Train crash is not an issue with modern traffic control and signaling. The problem is the train to automobile crash at level crossing points of conventional railways at a speed of 60 MPH or less, which is beyond the control of train traffic control system.
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Old May 10th, 2010, 07:10 PM   #1436
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Planned top speed is 220 mph(352 km/h). 220 mph is the speed California and Floria railway authorities are advertising to sell their projects to public.
I read the entire florida plan and it said top operating speed will be 299 km/h. Also Shinkansen trains can operate at 350 km/h, as it has been said before Shinkansens hold the conventional high speed rail speed record. The US lines will have new tracks and won't have to worry about noise pollution etc.
Quote:
Because of lighter weight made possible by filmy construction.
And despite that no fatalities and only one single derailing which was during a large earthquake. Also that's not the only reason they are more energy efficient, it's also the exterior and its wind resistance (?), placement of motors, tilting into turns etc.

BTW the first HSR was Shinkansen and Japanese travel the most by rail each year than every other nation in the world...you make it seem like japanese train companies have no idea what they're doing

Distance travelled by rail per inhabitant in km/year
# 1 Japan: 1,900

In reality the only major negative to the Shinkansen for the Obama administration will be the cost. Since Japan just recently approved government bank loans to developed nations at least one problem has been overcome..
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Last edited by ukiyo; May 10th, 2010 at 07:27 PM.
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Old May 10th, 2010, 11:48 PM   #1437
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
AGV the most advance high speed train available??
LOL you must be joking.
It's for a good laugh, really. Both Japan and Germany had almost decades of experience with distributed power-cars, while France will have just caught up next year, if they are on schedule for their italian customers...
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Old May 10th, 2010, 11:58 PM   #1438
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But Japan still holds title of no fatality related accidents with car crashes and a ride near the epicenter of a M6 earthquake EVEN with "FILMY CONSTRUCTION".
And that halfwit does not even have a large enough vocabulary to do the insulting he so craves "filmy construction"? I didn't know the next generation Shinkansen is translucent Let's see how long it takes the dimwit to find the word he really wants, don't hold your breath though
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Old May 11th, 2010, 04:17 AM   #1439
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
It's for a good laugh, really. Both Japan and Germany had almost decades of experience with distributed power-cars, while France will have just caught up next year, if they are on schedule for their italian customers...
Alstom and Siemens HST technologies have hardly anything in common. Using distributed power cars under a traditional (car-based) architecture is a problem that was indeed solved decades ago. Using distributed power cars with an articulated design (= half as many axles - less maintenance costs and improved safety) while keeping the axle load under 17 tons and still abiding by crash-resistance regulations is a real challenge.
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Old May 11th, 2010, 01:42 PM   #1440
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Originally Posted by mozatellac View Post
Alstom and Siemens HST technologies have hardly anything in common. Using distributed power cars under a traditional (car-based) architecture is a problem that was indeed solved decades ago. Using distributed power cars with an articulated design (= half as many axles - less maintenance costs and improved safety) while keeping the axle load under 17 tons and still abiding by crash-resistance regulations is a real challenge.
I'm lost, I can't see the correlation between the proposed articulated design and crash resistance. Whether it be traditional or articulated, there should be no difference at the front.
As for axle load, Alstrom sacrificed cabin space in doing so which is evident going over passenger capacity.(Seven to fourteen carriages, with a total of 250-650 seats)
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