daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 13th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #1481
SamuraiBlue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,232
Likes (Received): 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Articulated or not, I believe the unfortunate Amagasaki accident would have happened due to over speeding on a curve.
(The accident has nothing to do with jackknifing nor collision)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
The reason for articulated bogie design is to prevent jackknifing in the case of above accident situations. Yes, the train will derail, but they will continue to move forward as one piece.
Don't you dare make conjectures without knowing the facts.
The Amagasaki accident occurred because;

Quote:
the front two carriages rammed into an apartment building. The first carriage slid into the first floor parking garage and as a result took days to remove.
Tell me how articulated bogie design would have prevented this accident.
SamuraiBlue no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old May 13th, 2010, 05:31 PM   #1482
Matthieu
Administrateur
 
Matthieu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Tarbes, the capital of the world
Posts: 15,271
Likes (Received): 5688

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Just for an intuitive illustration of how far behind the French TGV is, look at it side-by-side with ICE-3. It will be obvious which one is the result of 19-century engineering
If the French could make HSR/TGV in the 19th century it was about time you Germans catch up, only 100 years late!

+ That's a 70s design, check for TGV Duplex for more recent designs.
__________________
"To erect a tall building is to proclaim one’s faith in the future, the skyline is a seismograph of optimism."
Jean Nouvel
Matthieu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2010, 06:07 PM   #1483
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post
If the French could make HSR/TGV in the 19th century it was about time you Germans catch up, only 100 years late!

+ That's a 70s design, check for TGV Duplex for more recent designs.
You are probably the dullest guy in any company, incapable of the appropriate response to jokes, sarcasm, or hyperbole...

It's obvious who is trying to catch up with whom. Let's hope AGV is a decent improvement over those ugly and cranky TGVs...
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2010, 06:21 PM   #1484
Matthieu
Administrateur
 
Matthieu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Tarbes, the capital of the world
Posts: 15,271
Likes (Received): 5688

I got your sarcasm, don't worry, you're the one that didn't got mine. Since I have to explain it to you I was just saying your post was lame trolling comparing an old TGV to a recent ICE-3.
__________________
"To erect a tall building is to proclaim one’s faith in the future, the skyline is a seismograph of optimism."
Jean Nouvel
Matthieu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2010, 10:13 PM   #1485
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
As for AGV 200m 11 cart capacity, I have not yet seen a report to verify this figure, as for Velaro D 8 cart capacity, Wiki posts the following;
"200 m/8 cars with up to 536 seats"
Which is 100 seat more than AGV.
Note the magic "up to". How many seats a train actually has depends on a lot of factors. In the end the customer decides. The ICE-3 still has a restaurant, and DB is quite generous in the amount of legroom it allows it's passengers to have. As a result the Velaro-D now being delivered to DB has about 460 seats. The 11 car AGV sets Alsthom is building for Italy also have 460 seats. So both offer the same capacity in a 200 m train length. I'm sure that an 11-car AGV could accomodate 560 passengers too if you where willing to inflict that on your customers.
You can of course increase capacity in many ways. Many Shinkansen sets have 2+3 seating or even 3+3 seating, but that's a non starter in Europe. For one thing the loading gauge doesn't allow for trains as wide as the Shinkansen, and Europeans don't let themselves be stacked as tightly as Japanese.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2010, 10:15 PM   #1486
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post

Tell me how articulated bogie design would have prevented this accident.
A TGV would probably have stayed within the railway alignment.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2010, 10:17 PM   #1487
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
So essentially, you are just giving the French excuses. But from the point of view of a customer, I don't care for excuses, and would buy from Germany or Japan over France any day.
Oh, I'm not giving them excuses. I'm only trying to give explanations. I'll choose an ICE over a TGV any day too. If you've seen my other posts you'll know that I think that the Germans run a better railway than the French.
However, from an engineering point of view I quite like the AGV. I like the Talgo Avril even more. Now there's a train I would like to see more of. I especially think it might make a good basis for a long distance high speed night train (because of it's wider carriages).
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2010, 10:25 PM   #1488
Davodavo
inFocusDC.com
 
Davodavo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Donostia/Santander
Posts: 6,724
Likes (Received): 45

TGV is not as good as it is thought to be, it depends on what your destination is, for instance, if you go from Hendaye to Paris it takes more than 7 hours, at a very low speed for almost the whole journey (except for the last part, as, the closer you are to Paris, the better the system works, which is logical).

This is because track is not adequate enough in Southern France to support TGV's high speed, and the construction of the new track recently was postponed, owing to financial problems (too expensive, and not enough population, not true this last thing however).

An example of good high speed rail is the Spanish one, which as a matter of fact, was used and visited by members of the US government, last year.
The good point: they only run trains in places where they can do it at the highest speed.
The bad point: it is so expensive, it's driving the country to bankruptcy, and therefore nowadays with this crisis we have now, there's no money invested in extending the system, and apparently, there is not going to be for a long time.
__________________
Webpage: inFocusDC.com – Please visit!!
Twitter: @inFocusDC – Please follow :-)
Davodavo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 12:24 AM   #1489
Matthieu
Administrateur
 
Matthieu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Tarbes, the capital of the world
Posts: 15,271
Likes (Received): 5688

That thread was much better when people were actually posting news on development of this project. The ***** contest on who's got the best trains are silly anyway. Really the quality of this thread has taken a hit in a few pages.
__________________
"To erect a tall building is to proclaim one’s faith in the future, the skyline is a seismograph of optimism."
Jean Nouvel
Matthieu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 12:29 AM   #1490
Micrav
Live!
 
Micrav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere between Paris and Riga
Posts: 698
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Just for an intuitive illustration of how far behind the French TGV is, look at it side-by-side with ICE-3. It will be obvious which one is the result of 19-century engineering

How do you dare to compare the grandmother of modern high speed with one of its children? Don't forget that the french TGV was born on paper in 1967 and the first was on rails in 1978. There are generations in between. TGV still ride and they received new interiors, refurbishment. Nowadays. Sustainable design pushes us to make our products live longer. For me the future designs will be evolutive and sustainable. We have no choice!
__________________
Design smart!
Micrav no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 01:57 AM   #1491
czm3
Automobile lover
 
czm3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NYC/Miami
Posts: 381
Likes (Received): 147

Any of these trains would be a vast improvement over what the acela is now. Let's try to get back on topic...
czm3 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 03:14 AM   #1492
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17034

Quote:
Originally Posted by czm3 View Post
Any of these trains would be a vast improvement over what the acela is now. Let's try to get back on topic...
Its not the Acela thats bad , its the tracks along the NEC which our now just being upgraded. NEC is also very congested , so only certain parts even when fully upgraded will allow true-HSR , but its getting better. If you want true HSR along the NEC , build a New NEC.
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 03:51 AM   #1493
SamuraiBlue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,232
Likes (Received): 195

Although this is my speculation, I do not think a true HSR is ever possible on the NEC due to track sharing with other traffic.
With all the upgraded being initiated I do not believe freight operators will ever install state of the art in-cabin signaling systems equipped with D-ATC/ATS within their locos. (For that matter most comuter trains as well to save a buck)
Thus coordination of speed and distance will be disrupted which will hamper all time schedule making it impossible for HSR trainsets to achieve it's desired cruise speed.
This is the reason why I advocate track segregation.
SamuraiBlue no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 09:01 AM   #1494
Davodavo
inFocusDC.com
 
Davodavo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Donostia/Santander
Posts: 6,724
Likes (Received): 45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post
That thread was much better when people were actually posting news on development of this project. The ***** contest on who's got the best trains are silly anyway. Really the quality of this thread has taken a hit in a few pages.
Why when people try to expose the different options the US can choose, regarding high speed trains, you call it a contest?
It's just ridiculous!

Anyway if people don't want to discuss about the advantages and disadvantages of how the high speed trains work in each country and analyze which one would be the best for the US, there are still lots of things that can be done, apart from saying stupid things like it has been done in the post I''m refering to.
__________________
Webpage: inFocusDC.com – Please visit!!
Twitter: @inFocusDC – Please follow :-)
Davodavo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 02:41 PM   #1495
czm3
Automobile lover
 
czm3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NYC/Miami
Posts: 381
Likes (Received): 147

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Its not the Acela thats bad , its the tracks along the NEC which our now just being upgraded. NEC is also very congested , so only certain parts even when fully upgraded will allow true-HSR , but its getting better. If you want true HSR along the NEC , build a New NEC.
agreed that the track is the issue. Just like the rest of this topic, right now the track is more important than the rolling stock. That being said, the bombardier that is acela is a terrible train. It is way too heavy due to fra regs. Also, the interior is an utter joke. I don't know about the business class, but the tray tables in first class are so misaligned that one has to hold on to their drink unless one wants it to end up in their lap...
czm3 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2010, 02:47 PM   #1496
czm3
Automobile lover
 
czm3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NYC/Miami
Posts: 381
Likes (Received): 147

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davodavo View Post
Why when people try to expose the different options the US can choose, regarding high speed trains, you call it a contest?
It's just ridiculous!

Anyway if people don't want to discuss about the advantages and disadvantages of how the high speed trains work in each country and analyze which one would be the best for the US, there are still lots of things that can be done, apart from saying stupid things like it has been done in the post I''m refering to.
when people start discussing whether people in japan ride trains more often than people in Switzerland, it becomes a joke...
czm3 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 15th, 2010, 10:05 AM   #1497
dl3000
Registered User
 
dl3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 418
Likes (Received): 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Bombardier has 4 plants in the Northeast / nearby in Canada , Rotem has a plant in Philly, Kawasaki has 2 plants around the NYC region , Siemens doesn't have a plant here yet , neither does Alstom but the demand for more Transit & Train sets will likely mean they will build one soon.
Siemens has a plant in California that makes light rail/etc. If you meant no plant in northeast then my apologies.


Anyone have any specs on Zefiro? Looks like a pretty sexy train, not much out about it except a pretty sparse site. For that matter, anybody have a rundown of the EMUs out there that can do better than 350 km/h (I figure that would qualify in the very high speed category). All I know is Siemens Velaro, Alstom AGV, Bombardier Zefiro, Shinkansen E5 by Kawasaki I think (and perhaps earlier versions). What does that leave? Talgo? AnsaldoBreda?

And I didn't know Shinkansen demands complete isolation of its system. That definitely rules out California. Too bad, that's a loss of earthquake experience, maybe they can contract a deal for tips on how to build safe HSR rail beds in earthquake prone areas while using someone else's tech.
__________________
"San Diego...drink it in, it always goes down smooth" - Ron Burgundy

Last edited by dl3000; May 15th, 2010 at 10:14 AM.
dl3000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 15th, 2010, 11:46 AM   #1498
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by czm3 View Post
when people start discussing whether people in japan ride trains more often than people in Switzerland, it becomes a joke...
No it doesn't. Not everyone knows the facts, nor is there any a priori reason why the Swiss should ride the trains more often than the Japanese.

Last edited by Ariel74; May 15th, 2010 at 11:59 AM.
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 15th, 2010, 11:58 AM   #1499
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by dl3000 View Post
For that matter, anybody have a rundown of the EMUs out there that can do better than 350 km/h (I figure that would qualify in the very high speed category). All I know is Siemens Velaro, Alstom AGV, Bombardier Zefiro, Shinkansen E5 by Kawasaki I think (and perhaps earlier versions). What does that leave? Talgo? AnsaldoBreda?
Where did you read that Velaro is capable of commercial speed above 350? It's usually said that it's top commercial speed is at 350. Shinkansen E5 does not have a top commercial speed above 350 either, keyword here is "commercial". And neither of the other two models you mentioned - AGV and Zefiro - has run commercial service yet, one of them is in test, the other is probably still on the drawing board.

In fact, the first train to enter service with a designed top commercial speed over 350km/h might be the chinese CRH380, which, according to chinese news sources, is scheduled to be delivered this october.

It was also believed that another development of such super high speed trains is taking place in china, based on CRH3 (which was largely siemens Velaro technology). Though the new Wiki-Article on CRH380 seems to deny this, it does not provide sources.
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 15th, 2010, 12:06 PM   #1500
Davodavo
inFocusDC.com
 
Davodavo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Donostia/Santander
Posts: 6,724
Likes (Received): 45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
No it doesn't. Not everyone knows the facts, nor is there any a priori reason why the Swiss should ride the trains more often than the Japanese.
+1
__________________
Webpage: inFocusDC.com – Please visit!!
Twitter: @inFocusDC – Please follow :-)
Davodavo no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
amtrak, desertxpress, fly california, high speed rail, northeast corridor, texas triangle, united states

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium