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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
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Old August 12th, 2010, 05:58 PM   #1681
HyperMiler
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
My question is, why would the US want KTX related technology?
Provided free of charge. Beside, engineering skills of Acela did not stay in the US.

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After all the Acela is based on TGV
Acela is not based on TGV. Acela ended up being an all new train model thanks to US FRA crashworthiness regulation that prevented TGV from being adapted for US services, although that was indeed the original plan. Does Acela utilize Alstom's TGV experiences? Yes. Is it a TGV derivative? No.

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which is the basis of KTX-II isn't it?
Like Acela, KTX-II is an all new model that fixes many design deficiencies of TGV. Like Acela, KTX-II uses the experiences of engineers working on TGV-K, but it is not a TGV derivative.

This is the reason KTX-II took 12 years to develop and can legally be offered and even be tech-transferred in the US(The world capital of IPR lawsuits) without Alstom objection, because it contains no TGV IPR. But do expect a wave of lawsuits when CSR offers CRH380A for US HSR projects.
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Old August 12th, 2010, 11:36 PM   #1682
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...Pp7kAD9HI4SI80

So-called Holocaust victim transportation disclosure bill has passed CA Senate 31-1 and is sent to governor's desk for signing. There is no possibility of a veto and this bill will be signed into law.

Japanese, French, and German bidders are most affected by this bill.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 12:12 AM   #1683
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Wow! How anti-Semitic you sound, grandma! You claim you're not some bigot from the other posts before? Why don't you learn some tact?
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Old August 13th, 2010, 12:52 AM   #1684
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gosh I am happy that HyperMiller is on my ignore list. It would be even better if he's on yours too, for I'd be spared of reading him in quotes as well
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Old August 13th, 2010, 01:26 AM   #1685
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...Pp7kAD9HI4SI80

So-called Holocaust victim transportation disclosure bill has passed CA Senate 31-1 and is sent to governor's desk for signing. There is no possibility of a veto and this bill will be signed into law.

Japanese, French, and German bidders are most affected by this bill.
Though I think this bill is completely ridiculous and is a load of shit, you have blown it way out of proportion. It's not the countries that will be affected, it's the companies, specifically the operators, not the manufacturers. The rolling stock is not affected. Nationality has nothing to do with it. You're also assuming by your previous posts that the companies in question won't be able to bid at all, they will, but only if they disclose their direct involvement with transporting victims to concentration camps and make reparations. The bill was changed so that now, CHSRA can't disqualify bidders based on that disclosure. Since there is (correct me if I'm wrong) apparently one operator, SNCF, that was involved in that, then other operators have nothing to worry about. Also Japanese operators are totally unaffected because JR had nothing to do with the holocaust.

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Wow! How anti-Semitic you sound, grandma! You claim you're not some bigot from the other posts before? Why don't you learn some tact?
There was nothing anti-Semitic about his post.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 01:58 AM   #1686
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
It would be even better if he's on yours too, for I'd be spared of reading him in quotes as well
Except that Bandit didn't use quotes. You saw my post because you manually clicked on it. I told you ignore list doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Nobody_Important View Post
but only if they disclose their direct involvement with transporting victims to concentration camps and make reparations.
And how much would reparation cost?

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then other operators have nothing to worry about. Also Japanese operators are totally unaffected because JR had nothing to do with the holocaust.
Actually it was Japanese operator that lobbied the hardest against this bill, not SCNF which agreed to go along with bill's requirement.

The bill requires war prisoner and forced labor transportation disclosure, which Japanese operators during Imperial era did in hundreds of thousands, far more than the number of Jews that SCNF transported.

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There was nothing anti-Semitic about his post.
It doesn't matter to people like him.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 02:22 AM   #1687
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler
The bill requires war prisoner and forced labor transportation disclosure, which Japanese operators during Imperial era did in hundreds of thousands, far more than the number of Jews that SCNF transported.
Were any of the JR companies involved with that 60 years ago? The answer is no, because JR started 40 years after. There aren't any other Japanese bids for operation to my knowledge. Also, I'm pretty sure the bill only applies to the Nazi Holocaust, as it only applies to what when on between January 1, 1942 and December 31, 1944, which is pretty much exactly when the holocaust started and ended. The Japanese atrocities started in the 1930's. You should read the actual bill before making these claims: http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bil...d_sen_v97.html . I'm not sure if there's a newer version though.

I also question the the claim that the Japanese where lobbying against the bill. I'd like to see your source. If it is really true, then perhaps it was a misunderstanding of what the bill was targeting due to not reading the actual bill.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 04:11 AM   #1688
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Originally Posted by Nobody_Important View Post
Were any of the JR companies involved with that 60 years ago? The answer is no, because JR started 40 years after.
Japan Rail is the successor of Japan Government Rail that operated railways in Japan, Korea, and Manchuria during Imperial era. Rolling Stock vendor Kawasaki was a defense contractor that used forced labor to build fighters and various war machines. This is why Japanese are very much concerned by this bill as the stigma associated with WW2 effort would eliminate them from California project. If Japanese won't disclose, then Japan's rivals China and Korea will be happy to disclose Japan's wartime atrocities on behalf of Japan.

Quote:
I also question the the claim that the Japanese where lobbying against the bill. I'd like to see your source. If it is really true, then perhaps it was a misunderstanding of what the bill was targeting due to not reading the actual bill.
http://www.economist.com/node/165416...ry_id=16541661
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Old August 13th, 2010, 04:47 AM   #1689
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Japan Rail is the successor of Japan Government Rail that operated railways in Japan, Korea, and Manchuria during Imperial era. Rolling Stock vendor Kawasaki was a defense contractor that used forced labor to build fighters and various war machines. This is why Japanese are very much concerned by this bill as the stigma associated with WW2 effort would eliminate them from California project. If Japanese won't disclose, then Japan's rivals China and Korea will be happy to disclose Japan's wartime atrocities on behalf of Japan.


http://www.economist.com/node/165416...ry_id=16541661
Ok, 1. JR is a successor to JNR, which was established in 1949. But that doesn't have much to do with who they are now. 2. This is not about who used forced labor to build anything, this is about who TRANSPORTED those laborers.

In that article:
Quote:
According to people close to the state’s rail project, Japanese railway executives are especially worried that the law will damage their prospects.
There is no proof to back this up, nor does it say who these "people close to the state’s rail project" are, making it little more than a rumor. It also doesn't say anywhere that they were "lobbying" against the bill.

Last edited by Nobody_Important; August 13th, 2010 at 05:12 AM.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 04:49 AM   #1690
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One thing, none of the Japanese groups are placing a tender for CHSR, the reason why Japan is lodging protest is I believe becuase this kind of protectionism can cascade to other industry and/or other States wanting to remove foreign companies with superior technology bidding government projects. It also undermines federal policies on international diplomacy like the Arizona emigration law. It also goes against the spirit established in the Treaty of San Francisco.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 05:22 AM   #1691
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Ok, 1. JR is a successor to JNR, which was established in 1949. But that doesn't have much to do with who they are now.
Ditto for SCNF, yet SCNF is willing to go along with this bill. Of course they would just blame it on Nazi Germans who pointed guns at their heads.

Japan's explanation will be quite problematic.

Quote:
this is about who TRANSPORTED those laborers.
Japan Government Rail did, so its successor Japan Rail Central has an obligation to explain wartime actions of Japan Government Rail.

I don't know who built the rolling stock and locomotive, but they too must explain as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
One thing, none of the Japanese groups are placing a tender for CHSR
California is the market territory of JR Central. If JR Central decides to not bid because of mixed traffic and this "WW2 transportation disclosure" bill issues, that's understandable.

Quote:
the reason why Japan is lodging protest is I believe becuase this kind of protectionism can cascade to other industry and/or other States wanting to remove foreign companies with superior technology bidding government projects.
This bill doesn't affect Canadians, Chinese, and Koreans. French will just blame Germans for Holocaust transportation and get back into race.

But it does end Japanese and German bids in California because of stigma associated with this disclosure, possibly Italian bids if they are bidding.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 05:38 AM   #1692
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Japan Government Rail did, so its successor Japan Rail Central has an obligation to explain wartime actions of Japan Government Rail.
Well, the railways in Manchuria were operated by South Manchuria Railway, NOT Japanese Government Railways. I haven't seen any evidence that laborers or POWs where transported by them or by rail at all for that matter in any of the places they occupied.

First there was Japan Government Railways, then JNR, then JR and it's divisions. I don't see how they are somehow the same company when they've been turned into a new company TWICE over the span of almost a century.
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I don't know who built the rolling stock and locomotive, but they too must explain as well.
No they don't. I've explained this to you twice, and I've also told you to actually read the bill before you make claims and it seems you haven't done that. It says nothing about who manufactured the equipment, only who operated it. But again, READ THE ACTUAL BILL.

In all honesty I think you've lost this argument. Give up.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 05:46 AM   #1693
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From what I hear Japan never showed interest towards the CHSR through advisement of a US consultant agency BEFORE this bill was even became public.
JR Central successor of JNR that took over Government rail system after the war would have a very hard time locating any documents concerning what is being accused and even harder to verify.

The US Federal Government will also have a hard time with WTO if a protest is lodged against them concerning this issue and the Fed will ultimately need to overrule this law since it will no doubt be seen as a non tariff barrier discriminating foreign corporations if it gets out of hand.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 09:53 AM   #1694
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Quote:
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The US Federal Government will also have a hard time with WTO if a protest is lodged against them concerning this issue and the Fed will ultimately need to overrule this law since it will no doubt be seen as a non tariff barrier discriminating foreign corporations if it gets out of hand.
The problem is that the WTO isn't exactly a fast mover. Their decisions usually take decades.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 05:14 PM   #1695
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delete...

Last edited by kominam; August 14th, 2010 at 02:11 AM.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 06:50 PM   #1696
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Originally Posted by Nobody_Important View Post
Well, the railways in Manchuria were operated by South Manchuria Railway, NOT Japanese Government Railways.
South Manchurian Rail was taken over by JGR by 1925.

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I haven't seen any evidence that laborers or POWs where transported by them or by rail at all for that matter in any of the places they occupied.
Chinese and Koreans will be happy to show you the evidence in case Japanese fail to.

Quote:
First there was Japan Government Railways, then JNR, then JR and it's divisions. I don't see how they are somehow the same company when they've been turned into a new company TWICE over the span of almost a century.
SCNF would argue the same, yet they are willing to go along.

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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
From what I hear Japan never showed interest towards the CHSR through advisement of a US consultant agency BEFORE this bill was even became public.
Maybe you missed Maehara's rambling about how the US was trying to keep Shinkansen out of bids by enforcing crashworthiness regulation on them and demonstrated the ability of a conventional train to run on Shinkansen line(The reverse is what the US wanted, but at least Japanese tried) in front of Lay LaHood during his Japan visit.

Quote:
JR Central successor of JNR that took over Government rail system after the war would have a very hard time locating any documents concerning what is being accused and even harder to verify.
There won't be shortage of evidence from Japan's rivals if an inquiry is made.

For example, Japan has trouble "locating" evidence of Nanjing massacre, yet Chinese have a museum full of evidence to the event.
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Old August 16th, 2010, 06:21 PM   #1697
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7946...aust-role.html

Quote:
But the measure will also affect any rail firms from Germany, Japan, Spain, and Italy that were involved in transporting prisoners during the Second World War.

Executives at Japanese companies are said to be particularly concerned that they may face a public backlash if forced to reveal details of their treatment of American prisoners of war.
Quote:
Survivors of Imperial Japan's brutal labour camps have applauded the bill.

Lester Tenney, a survivor of the Bataan Death March after the fall of the Philippines in 1942, told The Daily Telegraph: "We do not want our money to be given to Japanese companies who used American POWs and have refused to apologise for the past 65 years." Mr Tenney said US soldiers laboured for some of Japan's most successful corporations for no wages, little food and negligible medical care, while enduring daily beatings.

The Japanese are expected to argue that they are different companies today.

Japan's transport minister, Seiji Maehara, was in San Francisco in June to promote bullet train technology and has invited Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to Tokyo in September.
France
Italy
Germany
Spain
Japan

Canada
Korea
China
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Old August 16th, 2010, 07:55 PM   #1698
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And this bill does not blatantly exploit a historical tragedy for political gain because?

California sure loves shooting itself in the foot.
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Old August 16th, 2010, 09:27 PM   #1699
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So your government is in deep debt and rapidly losing money, cost-cutting and efficiency is at the top of the agenda, and you're desperately trying to sell HSR to the public, so what's the best move? Why of course, pass a law forcing the companies with the most experience with high-speed trains to give themselves bad press!

Bravo, politicians.
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Old August 17th, 2010, 12:28 AM   #1700
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So your government is in deep debt and rapidly losing money, cost-cutting and efficiency is at the top of the agenda, and you're desperately trying to sell HSR to the public, so what's the best move? Why of course, pass a law forcing the companies with the most experience with high-speed trains to give themselves bad press!

Bravo, politicians.
This California were talking about , its a bizarre state....
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