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Old August 17th, 2010, 03:50 AM   #1701
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Pensions are the main issue. If those are cut, the liabilities are reduced my cutting the very nice pensions, California could become of better financial position. However, a budget hasn't come because Prop 13 requires 2/3rds to approve a budget. A budget should be only a simple majority in order to have a budget passed.
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Old August 17th, 2010, 04:29 AM   #1702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7946...aust-role.html





France
Italy
Germany
Spain
Japan

Canada
Korea
China
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Originally Posted by manrush View Post
And this bill does not blatantly exploit a historical tragedy for political gain because?

California sure loves shooting itself in the foot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoc89 View Post
So your government is in deep debt and rapidly losing money, cost-cutting and efficiency is at the top of the agenda, and you're desperately trying to sell HSR to the public, so what's the best move? Why of course, pass a law forcing the companies with the most experience with high-speed trains to give themselves bad press!

Bravo, politicians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
This California were talking about , its a bizarre state....


Hey guys, you're all blowing this bill WAY out of proportion.

Quote:
Published Thursday, August 12, 2010, by the Associated Press

California bill would air rail bidders' Holocaust role

By Robin Hindery

SACRAMENTO -- Companies hoping for a piece of California's future high-speed
rail project would have to disclose whether they transported Holocaust victims
or POWs to Nazi camps during World War II, under a bill that passed the state
Senate on Thursday.

The measure would require companies seeking contracts with the state's
High-Speed Rail Authority to reveal any involvement in transporting people to
concentration, prisoner-of-war, labor or extermination camps. They also must
report whether they took remedial steps for their action or paid restitution to
victims.


The Senate voted 31-1 to approve AB619 <http://tinyurl.com/2865mkl>, sending it
back to the Assembly for a final concurrence vote before it heads to Gov. Arnold
Schwarzenegger's desk.

The measure's author, Assemblyman Bob Blumenfield, said he hoped it would
encourage companies to acknowledge past wrongdoing.

"Any company that has failed to take responsibility for its participation in
mass genocide should be made to disclose this fact before being considered for
these lucrative contracts," the Woodland Hills Democrat said Thursday.

As originally drafted, the bill would have given the rail authority the power to
disqualify bidders based on their disclosures. It was later amended to remove
that text.


The rail authority will begin accepting bids for the $45 billion project next
year, and several international railroads have expressed interest in building
the 800-mile rail system.

One of those, the French national railway company, SNCF, was the inspiration
behind AB619, Blumenfield said. In 2000, SNCF commissioned and released a study
of its wartime operations, which included providing trains, personnel and
logistics to the Nazis.

The study concluded that because SNCF was taken over by the Nazis during the
German occupation, French railway workers were acting under duress when they
transported people to concentration camps.

Blumenfield disputes that claim, saying the company should pay restitution to
survivors, which it has not yet done.

A lawyer for SNCF, Peter Kelly, previously said the company would cooperate with
AB619's disclosure requirements if they become law. He did not immediately
respond to requests for comment Thursday from The Associated Press.

In January, California was awarded more than $2.2 billion in federal funding to
help pay for the high-speed rail system. The state's voters approved nearly $10
billion toward the system in 2008.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAHSR/message/5287

That's all it does. It's not really a big deal.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 08:57 PM   #1703
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Really?
We can't get over history can we?
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Old August 18th, 2010, 08:59 PM   #1704
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Really?
We can't get over history can we?
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Old August 18th, 2010, 09:47 PM   #1705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xXFallenXx View Post
Hey guys, you're all blowing this bill WAY out of proportion.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAHSR/message/5287

That's all it does. It's not really a big deal.
Your state keeps doing stupid things like this .....its getting absurd......grow up Cali Politicians.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 09:53 PM   #1706
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Is the U.S. turning a corner on high-speed rail?



(CNN) -- For a while now, crazy situations, hunger pangs and frustrating hours behind the wheel have been making life slightly miserable for Florida commuter Joe Panyanouvong. The attorney who regularly makes the 84-mile journey between Orlando and Tampa on Interstate 4 is ready for a solution.
"I have made this trip many times during peak hours for work and leisure. It can feel like a parking lot at times," said Panyanouvong. "During heavy traffic it's taken me as long as 2.5 hours to get from Orlando to Tampa."
He recalls one day when -- despite departing Orlando early to get a head start on a business trip -- traffic and farm animals got the best of him near U.S. Route 27 and Interstate 4.

A cow had wandered past a fence onto the road, causing tie-ups and headaches.

"I ended up missing lunch because of that cow," Panyanouvong said with a laugh. "I don't like missing lunch and I especially don't like getting stuck in traffic due to wandering farm animals or any other reason."

For generations, much of the nation has been forced to use cars, buses or pricey aircraft to travel to nearby cities. But this year, Washington opened the door to what may be a historic turning point in regional travel.
The Department of Transportation awarded $8 billion among 31 states to begin developing America's first nationwide high-speed intercity passenger rail service.

Panyanouvong said he loves the idea of jumping on a train, turning on his computer and getting some work done on his way to Tampa, "without having to worry about traffic or driving."

But the idea is much bigger than convenience, say supporters, who believe high-speed intercity rail will cut U.S. dependence on foreign oil, reduce climate-changing pollution and fatten wallets by triggering economic development.

Soon, Americans might find themselves rocketing along ribbons of rails at 200 mph in sleek, painted passenger cars -- never stopping until they arrive at destinations awake and refreshed.

The federal funding served as a down payment to develop the groundwork for 13 new high-speed rail corridors in the United States, including an Orlando-Tampa route.

"High-speed rail in America is long overdue and President Obama understands we can't build the economy of the future on the transportation networks of the past," said Federal Railroad Administrator Joseph Szabo.
Funded by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, these new dollars represent a historic investment in the country's transportation infrastructure. It will help create jobs and transform travel in America, according to a U.S. Department of Transportation official.

"High-speed rail will also revolutionize the way Americans travel by reducing U.S. dependence on foreign oil, lowering harmful carbon emissions, fostering new economic development and giving travelers more choices when it comes to moving around the country," said the official.

Despite these promises from the government, high-speed rail comes with its share of opponents, who say it is too expensive and won't save energy. Some even question if it will ever be built.

... it would be more cost-effective to use that electricity to power electric or plug-in hybrid cars than high-speed rail ...
--Randal O'Toole, senior fellow with the CATO Institute

"Even in a strong economy, building high-speed rail makes little sense, offering minimal reductions in travel times at exorbitant costs," said Ronald Utt, who is the Herbert and Joyce Morgan senior research fellow for the Thomas A. Roe Institute for Economic Policy Studies at the Heritage Foundation.

"For instance, one has to wonder what exactly motivated the review team to endorse the proposed $1.1 billion investment in the Kansas City-St. Louis-Chicago route, which would allow customers to reach their destinations 10 percent faster than they could by driving between Chicago and St. Louis," said Utt.

Utt said the $1.25 billion federal investment in a $3.2 billion project to build a high-speed rail line between Orlando and Tampa would reduce travel time between the two cities to less than one hour, compared to about 90 minutes by car. He said other projects have similar travel time differences.

Randal O'Toole, a senior fellow with the CATO Institute, said it is far more cost-effective to save energy by encouraging people to drive more fuel-efficient cars than to build and operate high-speed rail.

"Moreover, in places that do generate electricity from renewable sources, it would be more cost-effective to use that electricity to power electric or plug-in hybrid cars than high-speed rail," O'Toole said. "A Department of Energy report adds that boosting train speeds to 110 mph will reduce the energy efficiency of the trains, making them less energy efficient than automobiles."
A report from the United States Government Accountability Office also highlights potential issues with high-speed rail plans in the United States.
"Passenger rail service, especially services at higher and high speeds, will require new safety rules, constant public capital investment and operating subsidies, and balance with freight rail service and the rest of the national transportation system -- and currently only some of these elements are in place," according to a GAO report.

While the recent federal funds may serve as a catalyst for many projects and have generated high public expectations, the planning necessary to meet the many concerns outlined above has not yet occurred, the GAO report said.
"Given the funding, I would say that it is fairly likely that at least a few moderate-speed rail projects will eventually be completed," said O'Toole. "But the California high-speed rail project remains fairly unlikely considering that more than three-fourths of its costs are not yet funded. Florida probably has a 50-50 chance of completion since about half its costs are funded."
High-speed rail also has many supporters.

The United States Conference of Mayors, American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials and America 2050 -- a coalition of regional planners, scholars and policy-makers -- back high-speed rail plans. The U.S. High Speed Rail Association is also among the supporters.
"Experts in the oil industry have been saying for a number of years now that there is not enough oil left in the ground to continue our current level of consumption, not to mention no way to meet growing demand, and we can expect half as much oil available to us in the next 20 years," said Andy Kunz, president and CEO of the rail association.

"If we are to continue economic development and prosperity, we will need to greatly reduce our daily oil consumption, and high-speed rail is the only possible solution that can scale up to meet the growing demand of American mobility while greatly reducing our oil consumption," said Kunz.

High-speed rail supporters say the industry would stimulate the economy by creating millions of jobs across numerous sectors.

"Based on our company's 45 years of experience with high-speed rail in Japan, bringing high-speed rail to the United States will translate into jobs," said Mike Finnegan, an executive with US-Japan High Speed Rail and US-Japan Maglev.

"Importantly, these jobs pay well and they cannot be shipped overseas."
... bringing high-speed rail to the United States will translate into jobs.
--Mike Finnegan, US-Japan High Speed Rail and US-Japan Maglev

"The $8 billion investment in high-speed rail for America is just the beginning," said Szabo. "We know that it won't be built overnight, but the federal government is committed to the long-term development of the program. Of course, the Department of Transportation will fund projects that have the best chances to succeed and have instituted rigorous requirements to ensure successful completion of these projects."

So if and when high-speed rail does move forward in the United States, how would it be built and what type of technology would be used?
The Department of Transportation says funding for the program is "technology neutral" and does not place preference on the type of technologies used to build high-speed trains. Instead, it is allowing states and regions to choose the technology, as well as routes and station locations that meet their needs.

Most high-speed rail lines in the United States will be upgraded using existing freight rail rights-of-way, but the project in Florida and portions of California will be built on newly constructed high-speed rail lines, said Nazih Haddad, the chief operating officer for Florida Rail Enterprise.

Trains could reach up to 168 mph on Florida's high-speed line. Estimates from the U.S Department of Transportation say speeds could reach up to 220 mph for some portions of California's rail lines, while most other regions would top 110 mph.

Maglev train technology, which is popular in many scientific circles around the world for its high speeds, is one mode of high-speed rail that is not catching on in the United States because of its high cost, according to the Department of Transportation and rail industry insiders.

Maglev is a train technology in which magnetic forces lift, propel and guide a vehicle over a guideway. It follows guidance tracks with magnets and does not use steel wheels or steel rails usually associated with trains.

A well-known high-speed Maglev system operates commercially at Shanghai's Pudong International Airport in China. Its train reaches speeds of 268 mph and is much faster than the high-speed trains proposed in the United States. Japan and Germany also use Maglev train systems.

So what's the time frame?
One Department of Transportation report said high-speed rail lines in portions of California may not be completed until 2026.

For Joe Panyanouvong and the millions of Americans searching for solutions to "traffic headaches," the answers appear complex and in some cases, highly debatable and costly.

Panyanouvong will have to wait until at least 2015 until he has a chance to chuck his car and ride the rails from Orlando to Tampa.

Nonetheless, he said he'll be ready. "I would rather keep my 2002 Nissan Maxima at home."
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/0...pnto&wom=false
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Old August 21st, 2010, 06:28 AM   #1707
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^ ^ ^ As much as I like the CATO Institute on a number of things (Civil liberties, non-interventionism, school choice, limited government), their stance on high speed rail is just utterly idiotic. The US NEEDS viable alternatives to driving, and for distances >300-400 miles, high speed rail IS the best solution, both in terms of speed, time, comfort and convenience.


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Really?
We can't get over history can we?
+1
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Old August 21st, 2010, 06:51 AM   #1708
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Libertarians are interesting idealists, but like most idealists not full of practical policies for the world as it actually functions.
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Old August 21st, 2010, 01:18 PM   #1709
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Libertarians are interesting idealists, but like most idealists not full of practical policies for the world as it actually functions.
You can't plan a country effectively around the framework any extreme idealist creed, be it communist, libertarianism, technocracy, environmentalism and so. Every idealism lacks practicalities.
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Old August 21st, 2010, 11:11 PM   #1710
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I wouldn't call Libertarianism an extremist creed, the extremist most liberal political movement would be anarchism, libertarians have a fairly rational point of view IMO.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 09:54 AM   #1711
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I wouldn't call Libertarianism an extremist creed, the extremist most liberal political movement would be anarchism, libertarians have a fairly rational point of view IMO.
I know this is drifting the topic discussion, but I just want to make a point then. Some principles behind Libertarianism might be feasible and implementable. However, on their push to reduce State interference, they create a scenario in which the State would be powerless, for instance, to stop a group of people of reenacting slavery, for instance, where some people would voluntarily agree to work for free for an indeterminate term if they can't pay a debt, for instance.
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 08:04 AM   #1712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7946...aust-role.html





France
Italy
Germany
Spain
Japan

Canada
Korea
China
Congrats to Canada and Korea, one of you will get it.
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 09:08 PM   #1713
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Originally Posted by G5man View Post
Pensions are the main issue. If those are cut, the liabilities are reduced my cutting the very nice pensions, California could become of better financial position. However, a budget hasn't come because Prop 13 requires 2/3rds to approve a budget. A budget should be only a simple majority in order to have a budget passed.
Economists will never learn ???


ANY cut in SALARY/PENSION/BUDGET is just the same as hammering a nail on the economic wealths coffin ...

Salaries/pensions are REINVESTED in the economy ... cutting them to solve any off situation only leads to some major setbacks and worsens some situations elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post
I wouldn't call Libertarianism an extremist creed, the extremist most liberal political movement would be anarchism, libertarians have a fairly rational point of view IMO.
No ... the are extremists ... they dream that they live in "utopia"*!!!!


Or as some people call it ... la la land.



* u·to·pi·a (y-tp-)
n.
1.
a. often Utopia An ideally perfect place, especially in its social, political, and moral aspects.
b. A work of fiction describing a utopia.
2. An impractical, idealistic scheme for social and political reform.
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 09:21 PM   #1714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
My question is, why would the US want KTX related technology?
After all the Acela is based on TGV which is the basis of KTX-II isn't it?
Acela is a development of the Canadian LRC trains:

LRC (from the seventies):



Acela: (the only thing similar to the TGV is the use 4 asyncronous AC traction motors in each power car that were similar/identical to the ones used in the french TGV's)



Class 221 Virgin (UK, another LRC derivative wich could see a great use in american intercity connections if properly adapted)



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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 09:34 PM   #1715
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Ditto for SCNF, yet SCNF is willing to go along with this bill. Of course they would just blame it on Nazi Germans who pointed guns at their heads.

Japan's explanation will be quite problematic.


Japan Government Rail did, so its successor Japan Rail Central has an obligation to explain wartime actions of Japan Government Rail.

I don't know who built the rolling stock and locomotive, but they too must explain as well.


California is the market territory of JR Central. If JR Central decides to not bid because of mixed traffic and this "WW2 transportation disclosure" bill issues, that's understandable.


This bill doesn't affect Canadians, Chinese, and Koreans. French will just blame Germans for Holocaust transportation and get back into race.

But it does end Japanese and German bids in California because of stigma associated with this disclosure, possibly Italian bids if they are bidding.
Americans and Sionists are so entertaining ...


Do you realy want to see the rest of the world passing such anti sionist laws ???


Would be much funny to see any american corporation needing to explain the american and israely involvement in 99% of the wars and local disputes all over the world in the last 100 or so years ... try to prove that those sam companies had not CIA or Mossad operatives in their corporate foreign offices. (or any other kind of bullshit).


EMD couldn't bid Either ... they were part of GM and GM had OPEL trucks in the nazi germany (even if they proclaim that OPEL was rougue at that tiem it would be the same as in JR case) ... GEwould surelly have some other skeletons in it's case (being a major suplier of german automakers at that time) ... any other american local conglomerate would also be tied with some odd involvement in some utterly nazi-based enterprise associated in a meaningfull way to the forced trasnportation of holocaust victims.

Bombardier couldn't aply ... they own presently 1/2 the factories that made those trains back in germany at the time.

thats globalization for you ... too bad that the USA economy was up to it's hairs in it way back as the early 1900's .
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 09:39 PM   #1716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7946...aust-role.html





France
Italy
Germany
Spain
Japan
Canada

Korea
China
Bombardier owns almost the entire old german war machine (the factories that produced the panzers and the rail equipment back at WW2).

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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old August 24th, 2010, 01:04 PM   #1717
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I think the EU must retaliate and immediately stop procurement from all of California's High Speed Train producers!

......

Oh, shit.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 05:18 PM   #1718
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I think the EU must retaliate and immediately stop procurement from all of California's High Speed Train producers!

......

Oh, shit.
He, he, he...

Actually, I don't think the French worry very much about this bill. SNCF "came clean" a few years back, making profuse apologies in all directions for its wartime and holocaust record. They are reasonably confident that this should be sufficient to meet the Californian requirement. (They cannot, in all likelihood, be held financially liable because their equipment was formally requisitioned by the Germans army in the midst of an ongoing war.) But, as Sotavento said, the Japanese have been much less fortright about their wartime history.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 05:46 AM   #1719
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China has their own human rights issues but they have America by the balls. Hopefully that idiom is understood by everyone. I'm for Alstom/SNCF, they appear to be interested with their HST 200 plan etc. Second oldest operators of high speed rail, I think that is a strong resume. This whole bill limiting those companies eligible is ridiculous, but If hans280 is right and they did come clean, then hopefully that bodes well for that proposal.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 09:16 PM   #1720
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http://www.sfvbj.com/news/2010/aug/2...speed-rail-bi/

The bill passed the House too. Heading to Gov Arnold's desk for signing. This is a done deal.

SCNF's take

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0cc50ae4-b...44feabdc0.html

Quote:
Holocaust bill poses hurdle for SNCF rail bid

While the legislation does not bar SNCF from making a bid, it has created an extra hurdle for the French company ahead of what is likely to be one of the most lucrative rail projects up for tender in the world.

But the revival of the debate over state-owned SNCF’s role in the deportation of 75,000 Jews to Nazi death camps during the war, could make a French victory politically sensitive.

Mr Kelly said he did not expect the disclosure to affect SNCF’s chances of winning the bid. “The railroad was taken over and used by the Nazis,” he said. “[Some] 1,600 of our employees were killed as members of the resistance.”
Japan's take

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/inter...na051000c.html

Quote:
Railway project bidders must reveal WWII histories under California bill

LOS ANGELES -- The California State Assembly approved a bill Aug. 25 requiring bidders for an estimated 4 trillion yen high-speed railway project to release information on their transportation of prisoners-of-war during World War II.

The bill was introduced to the state legislature with French national railways' transportation of Jews to Nazi concentration camps in mind. However, the state senate also deliberated on the Japanese state-run railway system's transportation of POWs and about 670,000 Koreans.

East Japan Railway Co. (JR East), a member of a corporate alliance that intends to participate in the tender in a bid to sell its Shinkansen bullet train system, could be subject to the law.

Last edited by HyperMiler; August 27th, 2010 at 09:45 PM.
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