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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 28th, 2010, 04:35 AM   #1721
hammersklavier
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This bill is nonsensical. The only conceivable operator with credible technical experience who would not have WWII-era skeletons in their closets would be the Chinese. We all know this already. It doesn't really change who'll actually bid at all, either.

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Old August 29th, 2010, 11:56 PM   #1722
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
The only conceivable operator with credible technical experience who would not have WWII-era skeletons in their closets would be the Chinese.
China has the least high-speed rail operating experience of all bidders. Chinese do have a vast network, but their history is short and the system they operate is not theirs.

Not to mention that CRH-380A would meet neither IPR and crashworthiness(Expected to be UIC standard) of US standard.

What China's has is the best construction financing program attached to their bids. But the product itself is the least desirable of all, and may not even be legal to be sold in the US.

At this point, I would rule Chinese bids out in the US due to IPR, safety, and political reasons. Chinese will have success in 3rd world country HSR projects, but not in developed markets.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 11:57 PM   #1723
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The Chinese and the Koreans (I'm sure) would be the only bidders with a clean record.

This bill is just incredibly stupid, and w/ the case w/ SNCF, that happened over 6 decades ago, let bygones be bygones. Give the contracts to the best bidder.
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Old August 30th, 2010, 12:06 AM   #1724
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The Chinese and the Koreans (I'm sure) would be the only bidders with a clean record.
According to Japanese rightwingers(who were furious at this law), no.

Chinese government took over Manchurian Railway and Korean government took over Korea Railway constructed and operated by Imperial Japanese government post-war, so they too should be held accountable as much as JGR and its successor JR East are.
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Old August 30th, 2010, 02:16 AM   #1725
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My take on this out-of-control political correctness is an old, but very wise quote: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".



Mike
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Old August 30th, 2010, 02:31 AM   #1726
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My take on this out-of-control political correctness is an old, but very wise quote: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".



Mike
What does Glenn Beck think about High Speed Rail? Rush? Bill? Sean?
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Old August 30th, 2010, 02:47 AM   #1727
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If you go back far enough in most western countries' histories then you will find some kind of unforgivable genocide. The Americans with the original native population, the Europeans with all of Africa and the Far East etc..... I'm not too sure about Asian history but the I know similar has happened there at one time or another.

This kind of law is unbelievable with respect to history... we have to move on some time or other. If a country has already accepted and apologized then we cannot hold grudges across generations !! If we don't then grudges will stay and racism and xenophobia will thrive whilst history is remembered in such a limited way !!

China wins. (nothing against China)
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Old August 31st, 2010, 08:41 AM   #1728
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I'm sure this has come up but the notion of the Chinese once again building California's railroads is ironic. This time it won't be nearly as dangerous and it will be Chinese businesses operating/designing tracks built by American workers. Practically a reversal.
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Old August 31st, 2010, 06:35 PM   #1729
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We often hear people saying that the US is too large and its population density too low to make an HSR network viable.

Here's a map showing both Eastern US and Western Europe at the same scale. In red, you can see European HSR network. As you can see, a system as extensive as the one currently existing in Europe would be already far enough to serve most of US HSR needs.

In looking at that map, I realized how much we actually underestimate European distances compared to US distances. For instance, we imagine Boston and Miami to be incredibly far away, but Boston is actually closer to Miami than Hamburg is to Sevilla ! Both European cities being actually served with high speed rail...

I think that if we don't realize that European distances aren't that small, it's because of two major problems: First, half of the US is empty (all the Rockies and desert states) and can thus be ignored here. Second, Europe has a very weird shape with tons of islands and peninsulas. As such, there are tons of water in Europe (North sea, Med sea, Adriatic sea, Baltic sea), which are of course not counted in land area but which don't put Helsinki, Palermo or Edinburgh any closer.
All true. But there are major differences between US and Europe. For example, if I were to fly from USA to almost anywhere in Europe, I could easily take trains to almost anywhere interesting, arrive in the city center, and walkabout. I recently stayed in Genoa, Italy, and took trains to Monte Carlo, walked about, had lunch, and got back to Genoa the same day. In the USA that would be impossible, except maybe in the Bo-wash corridor. I live near Raleigh NC and would love to take a train to Charleston SC, except that the Charleston station is many miles from the city center and where I would like to walkabout. Not to mention a timetable that just doesn't work. So I take most of my vacations in Europe.
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Old August 31st, 2010, 08:23 PM   #1730
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LOL

I have no issues with vacations in Europe, but that is not an excuse. If you can afford on overseas trip to Europe (where I'm living for now) with its expensive hotels, I bet you can afford a good car and all gas you can fill in to go from Charleston to Raleigh...
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Old August 31st, 2010, 08:42 PM   #1731
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LOL

I have no issues with vacations in Europe, but that is not an excuse. If you can afford on overseas trip to Europe (where I'm living for now) with its expensive hotels, I bet you can afford a good car and all gas you can fill in to go from Charleston to Raleigh...
Indeed I can, and I just returned from a long weekend by car to Charleston, but it was not anywhere near as much fun as exploring Europe by train. In April I flew to Munich and took trains through Austria, Liechtenstein, and Switzerland to Genoa. Then took a cruise to Greece, Turkey, and the Ukraine. But for me the best part was traveling from city-center to city-center by train ( and walking to my expensive hotel ). If only we could routinely do that here. Worse, you can do that in the Bo-wash corridor, but when I lived up there I failed to take full advantage.

When I lived in the DC area I routinely took trains to NY. And when I lived in New Brunswick NJ, I took commuter rail in to Newark every day. So the US CAN do it, but we lack the political will to make it so on a larger scale. So far.
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Old September 1st, 2010, 12:26 AM   #1732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post

My take on this out-of-control political correctness is an old, but very wise quote: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".



Mike
This isn't about political correctness but lobbies and winning votes from the Jewish community. If it was about political correctness China, with its current records on human rights, would be the first barred to participate, however such move would not only upset China but also the Chinese community in California.
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Old September 1st, 2010, 03:39 PM   #1733
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So which company is left now? Clearly not Germans, cause you know, they were Nazis. Not the French and the Japanese, cause they participated with the Nazis. That's the three countries with probably the most developed high speed networks around the world!!!!
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Old September 1st, 2010, 04:29 PM   #1734
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http://alttransport.com/2010/08/usdo...gh-speed-rail/

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USDOT Announces Uniform Design Standards For American High Speed Rail

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood today announce a set of uniform criteria for the design of double-decker train cars, which will help to scale the production of train manufacture to systems across the U.S.
I read the summary and this news 120 mph passenger railcar standard still requires 360 ton compressive load that ruined Acela with overweight structure.

We will have to see what the 220 mph railcar standard will look like.
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Old September 1st, 2010, 04:33 PM   #1735
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This isn't about political correctness but lobbies and winning votes from the Jewish community.
Yes, this started as one Jewish legislator's personal vendetta against SCNF, but later expanded to include Japanese atrocities because it was politically incorrect to include only the atrocities in Europe.

The Jewish legislator doesn't care about human rights record in China, as long as Jews are not involved.

But don't worry, you will see actions from "Free Tibet" and "Pro Dhalai Lama" movie stars in action once the formal bidding process starts.

That would leave only Koreans and Canadians as the bidders with UIC-compliant product and no historical or human rights record problems.
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Old September 1st, 2010, 04:44 PM   #1736
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So which company is left now? Clearly not Germans, cause you know, they were Nazis. Not the French and the Japanese, cause they participated with the Nazis. That's the three countries with probably the most developed high speed networks around the world!!!!
It's a biased and selective point of view because the SNCF was forced into this:

Mr Kelly said he did not expect the disclosure to affect SNCFs chances of winning the bid. The railroad was taken over and used by the Nazis, he said. [Some] 1,600 of our employees were killed as members of the resistance.

Nevertheless, I don't see how they'll put that bill in place, is it even legal to the WTO?
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Old September 1st, 2010, 04:50 PM   #1737
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It's a biased and selective point of view because the SNCF was forced into this:
Of course we know SCNF did not will it; but politics are politics and any ties to holocaust is a bad publicity.
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Old September 1st, 2010, 07:27 PM   #1738
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It's a biased and selective point of view because the SNCF was forced into this:

Mr Kelly said he did not expect the disclosure to affect SNCFs chances of winning the bid. The railroad was taken over and used by the Nazis, he said. [Some] 1,600 of our employees were killed as members of the resistance.

Nevertheless, I don't see how they'll put that bill in place, is it even legal to the WTO?
jews need to stop being cry baby's, what about the millions of German and soviet citizens who suffered under Stalin and Hitlers rule?

my family is from Germany, and they had to fight during ww2, as it was either death of your whole family for "going against the government" or fighting the war. they need to get over it already, if i was a law maker and that shit was brought up, i would sure be on all news networks for the outburst i would have.
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Old September 1st, 2010, 07:44 PM   #1739
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let's not make generalization on all Jews, it's a bill a few people who passed it to get re-elected.
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Old September 1st, 2010, 09:09 PM   #1740
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Sounds like a pretty damaging bill to everyone involved except Bombardier (I know most of the technology was adtranz, but most of our politicians aren't bright enough to look into it) and Rotem.....

I'd be a little more comfortable with atleast Siemens (and preferably an open competition) involved in the bidding process, hell they already do most of the electrification and make most of the LRVs in this country. But its not my state or my problem, so best of luck with below the belt politics.
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