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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 8th, 2010, 06:38 AM   #1781
Bandit
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Originally Posted by xerxesjc28 View Post
Chill out, or you won't last long here.
Chill out? You have it wrong I enjoy making a point of people's contradictions. I've been here a while so I have lasted long. I know giving people a taste of their own medicine is not all right.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 04:47 PM   #1782
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Is there something wrong with being pro-China?
It's politically incorrect to be Pro-China in the US. China is the new Soviet Union, even worse because all the manufacturing jobs are moving to China. At least Soviet Union didn't "steal" American jobs.

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Who ride trains in car-loving California?
Commuters who are sick and tired of getting stuck in traffic and frequent fliers who no longer have to fly.

The idea is to transform California public transportation to something similar to Northeast and reduce car traffic, because railway commuting is popular in Notheast.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 09:34 PM   #1783
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It's politically incorrect to be Pro-China in the US. China is the new Soviet Union, even worse because all the manufacturing jobs are moving to China. At least Soviet Union didn't "steal" American jobs.


Commuters who are sick and tired of getting stuck in traffic and frequent fliers who no longer have to fly.

The idea is to transform California public transportation to something similar to Northeast and reduce car traffic, because railway commuting is popular in Notheast.
Sorry to tell you it's called freedom and my human rights. Why don't you call the police and have them arrest me? Love the hypocrisy of those who hide behind freedom and then try to deny it to people who can think for themselves. Sorry to tell you other countries don't put a gun to America's head and force corporations to send jobs to them. CEOs CHOOSE to send jobs overseas to exploit workers so they can make an extra buck. Who lies and spreads propaganda like the Soviet Union now! When you think about it, if you were so right, why would you have to lie about it?

Traffic? Where? In the cities? How is HSR going to relieve commute traffic in the cities? I-5 is not at all jammed up between San Francisco and Los Angeles contrary to your propaganda and buying a plane ticket is no problem. All the bidders you wish to win in California don't have the loan guarantees to back them up. In other words... HSR is just a wet dream for you.

Last edited by Bandit; September 8th, 2010 at 10:22 PM.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 02:45 AM   #1784
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1. I believe he was being sarcastic.
2. Human rights are universal, you do not make your "own" version of what is human rights or is not.
3. China is not the new Soviet Union, except for some right wing extremist (and perhaps some leftist unionist, who are ironically are on opposite spectrum) and hopefully China would not be seen that way ever. People who are not ideologues (like me) are hoping for the best for China and hope they will one day soon be as well off as places like the US.
4. HSR and rail in general will not just overnight transform LA transit into Tokyo,NY,London type transit but it is a start. Los Angele's 30/10 plan would have a significant impact into getting LA's transit up and on track to being a truly great system. Same for other cities starting their own transit system.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 04:05 AM   #1785
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Is there something wrong with being pro-China? Let me guess yes because of China's human rights record? Just like your human rights record? Or how you started a war based on lies and false evidence? I can point to many instances post-Holocaust where the West has sponsor slaughters and pogroms around the world.

And you seriously believe that HSR will become reality in California? Like I pointed out before... when someone wants something, there's always someone else that wants to stop it. That's why nothing ever or takes many times longer to get things done in California. Like Californians will take rail routinely. Oh yeah it'll be popular in the beginning but after... Who ride trains in car-loving California? So if you think I'm hoping for China to build US rail. No, I'm not. If there's as much petty nationalism and patriotism and bigotry and hypocrisy as this thread has shown then the US deserves to buy more expensive than its worth trains you so dearly want that no one is going to ride anyway.
Ok seriously, chill. Transportation habits change when the option is there and the demand is there and in California believe it or not there is.

Nothing wrong with being pro China. They have America by the balls, I always say it. I just don't get what your extreme nationalist comments contribute to this discussion. You turn everything into an East v. West war. You need to relax. And by the way, unlike yourself, I don't agree with everything my government does (yes Iraq was lies in my opinion), and I have a right to say so, and I can access any part of the internet I want, legally. I can't say the same for China, and to me, that is a human rights issue, not even counting Tibet. Sooner or later, HSR will happen in CA. There will be a point when we don't have a choice so I think you are completely wrong.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 07:20 AM   #1786
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Ok seriously, chill. Transportation habits change when the option is there and the demand is there and in California believe it or not there is.

Nothing wrong with being pro China. They have America by the balls, I always say it. I just don't get what your extreme nationalist comments contribute to this discussion. You turn everything into an East v. West war. You need to relax. And by the way, unlike yourself, I don't agree with everything my government does (yes Iraq was lies in my opinion), and I have a right to say so, and I can access any part of the internet I want, legally. I can't say the same for China, and to me, that is a human rights issue, not even counting Tibet. Sooner or later, HSR will happen in CA. There will be a point when we don't have a choice so I think you are completely wrong.
Who turned this thread into "Who to blame for the Holocaust legislation?" Who's the one paranoid enough to think China was behind it? Who's the one bringing up their insecure nationalism in here bashing countries? I don't see you having a problem with them. And you show your bias because all I'm doing is doing what everyone elses is doing which is digging up human rights violations. You guys are just upset because you forgot that you ain't no saints when it comes to human rights by a long shot. So if you have a problem with the way this thread is going, go blame the ones that obviously bringing in their own personal problems and guising it as the merits of whose trains are the best.

Of course you believe in your rights. Hitler also believed in his own rights. Does that make Hitler a human rights activist? You're argument doesn't carry weight. Love it when it's the people who hide behind rights and freedoms who want to stop others from exercising theirs. Who has the problem with the other guys excercising their rights? It's certainly not me because obviously my arguments speak for themselves. Or maybe I'm suppose to let the "superior" people have the right to their say and I'm not suppose to correct them when they're wrong or displaying hypocrisy. Hitler believed in that one too.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 09:29 AM   #1787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
It's politically incorrect to be Pro-China in the US. China is the new Soviet Union, even worse because all the manufacturing jobs are moving to China. At least Soviet Union didn't "steal" American jobs.


Commuters who are sick and tired of getting stuck in traffic and frequent fliers who no longer have to fly.

The idea is to transform California public transportation to something similar to Northeast and reduce car traffic, because railway commuting is popular in Notheast.
That will never happen , although maybe in the LA region. But other then that never , you have 50 years of regional DNA coded transit users...
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Old September 9th, 2010, 10:42 AM   #1788
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I have no problem is South Korea, Canada or China wins the bid fairly and properly, but this bid is just totally unfair, if you ban France/Italy/Germany/Japan out of WWII history you should also ban China because it's nowhere a human rights model.

I believe this is just a political will to sink the whole project using two arguments: the holocaust and francophobia (look how articles always mentioned France's SNCF first). It's hard to go against these arguments in the current context because you can be deemed unpatriotic by right wingers. I think instrumentalizing the holocaust is crass though.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 01:22 PM   #1789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post
I have no problem is South Korea, Canada or China wins the bid fairly and properly, but this bid is just totally unfair, if you ban France/Italy/Germany/Japan out of WWII history you should also ban China because it's nowhere a human rights model.

I believe this is just a political will to sink the whole project using two arguments: the holocaust and francophobia (look how articles always mentioned France's SNCF first). It's hard to go against these arguments in the current context because you can be deemed unpatriotic by right wingers. I think instrumentalizing the holocaust is crass though.
That's the feeling that I'm having with this law. If they manage to squeeze out the Germans and French for what they did 60 years ago, then the Chinese will simply be the next ones on the chopping block.
I don't think it's about ze Germans or the Holocaust or human rights or so, it's about attaching so many bells and whistles to this project that the price will get so high that one will have to conclude that "apparently" it's simply unfeasible.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 01:38 PM   #1790
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Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post
I have no problem is South Korea, Canada or China wins the bid fairly and properly, but this bid is just totally unfair, if you ban France/Italy/Germany/Japan out of WWII history you should also ban China because it's nowhere a human rights model.

I believe this is just a political will to sink the whole project using two arguments: the holocaust and francophobia (look how articles always mentioned France's SNCF first). It's hard to go against these arguments in the current context because you can be deemed unpatriotic by right wingers. I think instrumentalizing the holocaust is crass though.
oh please. Transporting Jews to concentration camps is by a LONG shot not comparable to blocking internet and beating up journalists. You need to have your moral compass and sense of proportion go in for a check-up, before making a fool of yourself.

Besides, don't lump the Germans together with the French and the Japanese. The difference between them is that, unlike the French and the Japanese, Germans have apologized repeatedly and been sincere in their after-war de-nazification efforts: talk with any German youths and kids about what they think about the WWII, and you'll know.

The main reason behind the legislation is that some Holocaust survivors in the US are upset that SNCF does not even acknowledge that they were partly responsible for their past deeds, let alone apologize for these. If they did, I don't think anyone would want to block their bid.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 03:02 PM   #1791
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
oh please. Transporting Jews to concentration camps is by a LONG shot not comparable to blocking internet and beating up journalists. You need to have your moral compass and sense of proportion go in for a check-up, before making a fool of yourself.

Besides, don't lump the Germans together with the French and the Japanese. The difference between them is that, unlike the French and the Japanese, Germans have apologized repeatedly and been sincere in their after-war de-nazification efforts: talk with any German youths and kids about what they think about the WWII, and you'll know.

The main reason behind the legislation is that some Holocaust survivors in the US are upset that SNCF does not even acknowledge that they were partly responsible for their past deeds, let alone apologize for these. If they did, I don't think anyone would want to block their bid.

i dont think your understanding the whole problem here, the fact they are worrying about something that happened 70 years ago!!!!!

you dont see Indians,blacks, or another discriminated race/belief/w.e complaining about something now a days, they all just say it was the past and go with change.

also most German youth know what happened was wrong, but dont see a reason in apologizing as what happened wasn't their fault. idk were youve been.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 05:17 PM   #1792
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Originally Posted by miamipaintball View Post
i dont think your understanding the whole problem here, the fact they are worrying about something that happened 70 years ago!!!!!

you dont see Indians,blacks, or another discriminated race/belief/w.e complaining about something now a days, they all just say it was the past and go with change.

also most German youth know what happened was wrong, but dont see a reason in apologizing as what happened wasn't their fault. idk were youve been.
I don't count you as a German, so don't muddle the water here. Germans have issued heart-felt apologies, starting as early as Willy Brandt's magnanimous gesture in Poland. These are just facts.

It doesn't matter how long ago it was. If some people felt they were aggrieved and felt that SNCF's arrogant denial of any role of theirs adds insult to injury, I don't see why they cannot complain. And what stands in the way of a sympathetic statement from SNCF, after all?

By the way, you need to learn to write complete, intelligible sentences.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 05:30 PM   #1793
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As far as the issue of competition is concerned: there will be plenty. German, Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans are all eager to enter the American market. Cost: the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean bids will not be hugely expensive, certainly not more expensive than a potential French bid. Some of them even offer financing plans. Technology: Japanese and German railway technologies are the best anyway; the Chinese offer the highest speed, though their technology is partly derived and less tested. The French technology is anyhow outdated (their first power-distributed high speed trains are just coming out). And even that outdated technology would be represented by Korea's KTX series, which is a copy of the French models.

So I don't see how this legislation - which by itself does not yet preclude a French bid - should lessen competition in any way.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 07:32 PM   #1794
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Cost: the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean bids will not be hugely expensive
According to derailed Vietnam HSR project, Chinese were offering their system for slightly more than half the price of the winning Japanese offer. Granted this Chinese offer was strategically priced in order for China to exert its influence over Vietnam(And Vietnam declined for the exactly same reason), but there was a significant price difference between two nevertheless.

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Technology: Japanese and German railway technologies are the best anyway
German railway system, yes. Japanese railway system is really incompatible with US railway network model, so you can rule Japanese bids out; ditto for Chinese too. No chance of Shinkansen or CRH380A passing FRA crashworthiness requirement.

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the Chinese offer the highest speed
Chinese does not offer the highest speed; they run their trains close to or even above design speed limit. This is why Chinese could run Kawasaki CRH2 at 330 km/hr when Japanese themselves wouldn't dare to.

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though their technology is partly derived and less tested
Actually a complete replica with slight cosmetic changes, subject to IPR lawsuits in the US.

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The French technology is anyhow outdated
Not necessarily for the US market with mixed traffic railways. Locomotive pulled trains are inherently safer in crash than EMUs. KTX-II's locomotive car could withstand a static compressive load of 500 ton, far above FRA's 360 ton requirement and roughly 5 times that of a Shinkansen model or CRH380A. Not even Rotem's carbon-fiber bodied HEMU-400X would be able to demonstrate that kind of static compressive load strength.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 07:38 PM   #1795
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It does seem a bit anti-Semitic for politicians to take this tragedy and cynically exploit it.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 07:42 PM   #1796
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oh please. Transporting Jews to concentration camps is by a LONG shot not comparable to blocking internet and beating up journalists. You need to have your moral compass and sense of proportion go in for a check-up, before making a fool of yourself.
Presumptuous and rude, the two words that pop in my mind when reading that (particularly the last one). Think more about it, we're talking of something that happened 70 years ago against a policy that's still going on today + beating up journalists and blocking Internet aren't the only issues.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 09:21 PM   #1797
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I don't count you as a German, so don't muddle the water here. Germans have issued heart-felt apologies, starting as early as Willy Brandt's magnanimous gesture in Poland. These are just facts.

It doesn't matter how long ago it was. If some people felt they were aggrieved and felt that SNCF's arrogant denial of any role of theirs adds insult to injury, I don't see why they cannot complain. And what stands in the way of a sympathetic statement from SNCF, after all?

By the way, you need to learn to write complete, intelligible sentences.
well im not a true German, wasnt born in Germany, so im a first gen American German, atleast i still show love for my country unlike most nowadays.

you know in the US we are taught that the first Americans killed indians and lynched blacks until the 1980's millions of them, more than jews, yet we arent told to go apologize and such why? because we didnt do it, it doesnt make sense, to apologize something our ancestors did, which is why most young Germans nowadays dont feel its right they should apologize and hold the guilt.

i guess the Chinese and Koreans cant build our railways cause we killed millions of them in 1800's to mid 30's to build railways in the states.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 09:26 PM   #1798
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Presumptuous and rude, the two words that pop in my mind when reading that (particularly the last one). Think more about it, we're talking of something that happened 70 years ago against a policy that's still going on today + beating up journalists and blocking Internet aren't the only issues.
Besides your moral compass and your (apparently non-existent) sense of proportion, you are completely misconstruing the issue here. It is not about who is the bad guy and who is a paragon of morality. It is not that the builders of the US railway have to possess a certain moral standard.

The issue at hand is about specific complaints in the US, where the railway tenders are to be made, by holocaust survivors. If there were complaints in the US about the Japanese behavior in the second world war, or about the Chinese' supposed "human rights violations" (which is completely shenanigans in my view, but that is another topic I don't want to get into here), to the effect that they should apologize before making a bid, then yes, these things would become an issue.

But as things stand, no one demands an apology from the Japanese or the Chinese before making their railway bids (who in America would the Chinese apologize to anyhow??? all the supposed misdeeds of Chinese are done to themselves).

I am certainly not the presumptuous one here. In fact, you are the one making false assumptions about what's at issue here. As for rudeness, it's a matter of perception. I only tell what I take to be truths. If it hurts, sorry, but I won't stop telling it because of that.a

Last edited by Ariel74; September 9th, 2010 at 09:35 PM.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 09:28 PM   #1799
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well im not a true German, wasnt born in Germany, so im a first gen American German, atleast i still show love for my country unlike most nowadays.

you know in the US we are taught that the first Americans killed indians and lynched blacks until the 1980's millions of them, more than jews, yet we arent told to go apologize and such why? because we didnt do it, it doesnt make sense, to apologize something our ancestors did, which is why most young Germans nowadays dont feel its right they should apologize and hold the guilt.

i guess the Chinese and Koreans cant build our railways cause we killed millions of them in 1800's to mid 30's to build railways in the states.
See my reply to Matthieu. The issue is not about morality. The issue is that there are complaints in the US against SNCF. If there are complaints about other bidders, bring them on.

Fact is, there aren't any, yet.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 09:36 PM   #1800
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See my reply to Matthieu. The issue is not about morality. The issue is that there are complaints in the US against SNCF. If there are complaints about other bidders, bring them on.

Fact is, there aren't any, yet.
After this, it is not credible for you to talk about morality. You say I have little compass of morality, I say reading you here that you don't even know what that word (morality) means. Let me make it simple, something isn't immoral as long as someone doesn't complain? Nice morality and sense of proportion.

And please, supposed human right abuses... just lol.
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