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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 9th, 2010, 09:44 PM   #1801
Ariel74
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Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post
After this, it is not credible for you to talk about morality. You say I have little compass of morality, I say reading you here that you don't even know what that word (morality) means. Let me make it simple, something isn't immoral as long as someone doesn't complain? Nice morality and sense of proportion.

And please, supposed human right abuses... just lol.
You can get worked up all you want. But if you want to respond, you have to read first. I never connected complaints with morality. I distinguished them. I said one of them is at issue, the other is not.

We are talking about the bidding of US high speed railway projects. The legislation that we are all talking about is made because holocaust survivors complained, not because there is a legal connection between morality and eligibility to build railways.

You are going way off topic. If you'd like to discuss human rights, open a new thread. Then we can start talking about the French human rights record in ernest, which isn't pretty. But please stay on topic here.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 10:01 PM   #1802
Matthieu
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I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of this bill, which everyone here seem agrees on so far. Have a problem with my opinion (not that it matters)? They have the right to bar whoever they want from their bid, I'm not saying they don't, but on the other hand I have the right to say their reason are unfair and immoral (and I've got twice more right to say you don't know what that word means when you say I make a fool of myself with these statements) and that this whole bill is complete nonsense.

You disagree with me, that's nice, you say I made a fool of myself, I say you're rude and presumptuous and that your earliest comments were uncalled for.

I mean look at your post again and the one your answering to:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1251

I'm stating, without any ambiguity, that I believe this whole masquerade is just a plot to kill the whole project, and you answer on morality and sense of proportion, then later say I'm the one moving off topic; read again, who's moving off topic?

As long as politics were introduced into the discussion, and it was done by Californian themselves when they passed their populist bill, then the question of human rights cannot be eluded because it won't be the best bid that will win.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 10:14 PM   #1803
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Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post

I'm stating, without any ambiguity, that I believe this whole masquerade is just a plot to kill the whole project, and you answer on morality and sense of proportion, then later say I'm the one moving off topic; read again, who's moving off topic?
Let me help you sort this out: my comments on morality and sense of proportion is meant to argue that it is perfectly understandable why some people complained about SNCF in the US. A bidder's "morality" problem only becomes relevant under both of two conditions: (a) that there are real complaints from US Americans; and (b) these complaints are legitimate and understandable.

My hypothetical examples of Japan and China were meant to show that,

(i) none of their historical/human rights "problems" is relevant for the bidding simply because no one in the US felt their interest to be hurt enough to complain, so condition (a) does not hold for either Japan or China;

(ii) in the case of China, condition (b) does not hold either: it is hard to think of any understandable complaints by Americans about their mistreatment by the Chinese, in the way that holocaust survivors in the US can understandably complain about SNCF. In short, there's hardly anything the Chinese could apologize to Americans for.

Remember you were the one who made the preposterous comparison of Nazi collaborators with the Chinese, and that's where my comments of "moral compass" and "sense of proportion" were directed. In other words, they were about the condition (b). Some of my later posts made the point about condition (a).

Last edited by Ariel74; September 9th, 2010 at 10:24 PM.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 10:21 PM   #1804
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And I have all right to state this is immoral in itself, unfair and a meant to kill the whole competition.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #1805
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and my opinion about that is that the legislation will have no such effect. For the absence of a French bid in no may reduces the level of competition and the quality of technologies offered.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #1806
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and my opinion about that is that the legislation will have no such effect. For the absence of a French bid in no may reduces the level of competition and the quality of technologies offered.
That's your opinion, the one of someone that compares a 30 years old TGV to a brand new Velaro, or that compares the same Velaro to an Imac and an AGV to a PC .
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Old September 9th, 2010, 11:07 PM   #1807
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That's your opinion, the one of someone that compares a 30 years old TGV to a brand new Velaro, or that compares the same Velaro to an Imac and an AGV to a PC .
I am not the only one who does not think of TGV/AGV highly. Here is a piece of news that might shed some light on that, fresh from today:

Quote:
The Canadian Press
MONTREAL — The fate of a $2 billion rail contract for Bombardier and its partner AnsaldoBreda is expected to be decided by an Italian judge on Sept. 29 following a complaint by French rival Alstom.

The government-owned operator of Italy’s train system, Ferrovie dello Stato (FS), ordered 50 high-speed trains.

But Alstom challenged the selection of the Canadian-Italian partnership in court.

Bombardier Transportation spokesman Marc-Andre Lefebvre said the Berlin-based division of plane and rail manufacturer Bombardier Inc. will “vigorously defend its interest” in the case.

In a news release, FS said that the tender was conducted in “full compliance” with Italian law. The Crown corporation added that it is confident the judge will confirm its selection.

FS said the Bombardier AnsaldoBreda proposal was superior both technically and financially. The consortium is asking 30 million euros per train, for a total of 1.5 billion euros, while Alstom’s bid was seven per cent more expensive at 1.75 billion euros ($2.3 billion).

Roberto Tazzioli, president of Bombardier Transportation Italia, told Italian media that it was now “common practice” for competitors to legally challenge government rail contracts.

If the court confirms the selection of Bombardier and AnsaldoBreda, the contract should be signed before the end of the year.

The contract would introduce Bombardier’s Zefiro train to Europe with 50 trainsets that can each accommodate 600 passengers. The trains can travel up to 360 km-h.

Propulsion and electrical system work will be completed at Bombardier’s factory near Genoa.

Ansaldo, the rail division of Italian engineering and defence giant Finmeccanica, will build the train bodies and do final assembly at its plant near Florence.

In addition to Alstom, the Bombardier group beat several Japanese companies including Kawasaki. Germany’s Siemens withdrew due to the complex technical specifications requested by the Italian railway group.

Bombardier shares closed up four cents at $4.79 in Friday trading on the Toronto Stock Exchange.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 11:29 PM   #1808
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Yeah an Italian picked a train while another (NTV) picked the AGV. That's how public procurement goes, you make a offer and the one that fits at the lowest price wins. Alstom an Bombardier provided similar products that both met the requirements but Alstom was 16% more expensive, so that's it, if it can comfort you I never saw German products even meeting the requirement there in the first place.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 04:08 AM   #1809
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Who turned this thread into "Who to blame for the Holocaust legislation?" Who's the one paranoid enough to think China was behind it? Who's the one bringing up their insecure nationalism in here bashing countries? I don't see you having a problem with them. And you show your bias because all I'm doing is doing what everyone elses is doing which is digging up human rights violations. You guys are just upset because you forgot that you ain't no saints when it comes to human rights by a long shot. So if you have a problem with the way this thread is going, go blame the ones that obviously bringing in their own personal problems and guising it as the merits of whose trains are the best.

Of course you believe in your rights. Hitler also believed in his own rights. Does that make Hitler a human rights activist? You're argument doesn't carry weight. Love it when it's the people who hide behind rights and freedoms who want to stop others from exercising theirs. Who has the problem with the other guys excercising their rights? It's certainly not me because obviously my arguments speak for themselves. Or maybe I'm suppose to let the "superior" people have the right to their say and I'm not suppose to correct them when they're wrong or displaying hypocrisy. Hitler believed in that one too.
I see that debating with you is a waste of my time. I will say that some on what you call "my side" being American, have been unreasonable in their speculation of who is to blame for this legislation, but your statements are just too radical. You simply don't know how to debate rationally because your argument about rights has nothing to do with what I said.

And to make this post relevant, I am completely against the legislation, it is a tool to shoot down the project. I am for a fair bidding process, and I am partial to the experienced French and Germans. I am all for the Japanese too, but I simply think that the California system is more in line with ones that French and Germans have built (ie not exclusively HSR throughout).
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Old September 10th, 2010, 04:35 AM   #1810
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I love how people act as if none of you haven't done worse than you accuse others.

Let me tell you how in works in the US and pretty much the Western world. Everytime someone wants to do something, there's always someone else that wants to stop it and they'll use any means necessary to accomplish it. Just like using Tibetans as an excuse to stop China for about everything. And what have you done but only give lip-service to the Tibetans. You're just using them because of your personal fears of the future and not for the Tibetans. .
And the Chinese nationalist raise their ugly head.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 04:42 AM   #1811
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And the Chinese nationalist raise their ugly head.
And the notorious American bigot has raised his.

Last edited by Bandit; September 10th, 2010 at 04:49 AM.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 04:45 AM   #1812
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There's not going to be any high speed rail. I can't believe suckers keep believing Obama's lies.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 04:48 AM   #1813
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I see that debating with you is a waste of my time. I will say that some on what you call "my side" being American, have been unreasonable in their speculation of who is to blame for this legislation, but your statements are just too radical. You simply don't know how to debate rationally because your argument about rights has nothing to do with what I said.

And to make this post relevant, I am completely against the legislation, it is a tool to shoot down the project. I am for a fair bidding process, and I am partial to the experienced French and Germans. I am all for the Japanese too, but I simply think that the California system is more in line with ones that French and Germans have built (ie not exclusively HSR throughout).
And you only had a problem with what I had to say which was nothing more than what anyone else was doing. What I said was too radical? Again, nothing more different from your side which was my point and you proved it with your bias. LIke it was a dastardly Chinese conspiracy behind this legislation? Why? Because the blame the Jews scapegoating was dangerously crossing the line? So let's absurdly blame the Chinese instead.

Last edited by Bandit; September 10th, 2010 at 04:53 AM.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 05:27 AM   #1814
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What I don't understand is the focus of making the major cities the major hubs for their regions. Like Chicago is of course the major city of Midwest, but I would suspect that St. Louis would be a better position to be the main hub for Midwest HSR than Chicago. IDK, my position.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 10:35 AM   #1815
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Yeah an Italian picked a train while another (NTV) picked the AGV.
And I think NTV is going to eat Trenitalia's lunch. Trenitalia is easily the least competent railway company in Europe, competing with them should be easy. And that is without having the better trains too...
The fact that Trenitalia seem to prefer something Ansaldobreda is involved over an Alsthom or a Siemens product says a lot. Ansaldo Breda is know for delivering years late... But that is not a problem for Trenitalia who's core business is employing people, not moving people.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 10:39 AM   #1816
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There's not going to be any high speed rail. I can't believe suckers keep believing Obama's lies.
Seems like it's how things are going.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 07:22 PM   #1817
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I don't know about California but North-East is just perfect for high speed. Not an ACELA but a true high speed train.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 08:46 PM   #1818
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I don't know about California but North-East is just perfect for high speed. Not an ACELA but a true high speed train.
There is no room for a true HSR track in Northeast.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 08:53 PM   #1819
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(i) none of their historical/human rights "problems" is relevant for the bidding simply because no one in the US felt their interest to be hurt enough to complain, so condition (a) does not hold for either Japan or China;
Surviving US POWs are demanding an apology from Japan for their wartime deeds. http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_16014600

Followers of Dalai Lama and US practitioners of Falun Gong are also demanding China to stop prosecuting their leaders. So China too has plenty of opposition facing its bid, in addition to IPR legal problems.

One can cay Canadians and Koreans are only two bidders without blemish of past history. But these two don't have $10~20 billion construction loan financing attached to their bids.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 09:13 PM   #1820
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What I don't understand is the focus of making the major cities the major hubs for their regions. Like Chicago is of course the major city of Midwest, but I would suspect that St. Louis would be a better position to be the main hub for Midwest HSR than Chicago. IDK, my position.
The problem is that in the Midwest there isn't a relatively long linear line like the Cali, NEC, and Pac-NW.

The Chicago metro is nearly four times the size of St.Louis though so as many as four times those from a given city will be more likely to travel to Chicago then St.Louis from around the region. In term of serving as a hub Chicago presents itself as a rather ideal wheel hub even given its 15 miltes north from the tip of Lake Michigan.

Also Chicago is a good bit closer to other major Midwest cities like Detroit and Minneapolis. To the West and South the major gateways of St.Louis are Kansas City and Memphis. Not exactley big destination.

If one were go with your thinking I could see perhaps a Columbus but I don't really see it in St.Louis.
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