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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 11th, 2010, 09:58 PM   #1821
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Dissapointing that the US is playing politics over this.

Anyway

U.S. envoy Roos 'amazed' at maglev train after riding on test track
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KOFU, Japan (Kyodo) -- U.S. Ambassador to Japan John Roos rode a high-speed linear motor train line on the test track of Central Japan Railway Co. in Yamanashi Prefecture on Friday on the invitation of JR Tokai, which aims to sell the train to the United States.

"I was amazed," Roos said after riding the four-car maglev for about 26 minutes for 57 kilometers at a maximum speed of 502 kph, adding that the technology is "something that is going to change the lives of people."

The administration of U.S. President Barack Obama is placing "high priority" on high-speed railways and there is "big interest" in the technologies that have been developed in Japan, Roos said.

JR Tokai Chairman Yoshiyuki Kasai was delighted to have Roos take the ride, saying, "Seeing is believing. I think we were able to have him experience firsthand the potential of linear motors."

(Mainichi Japan) September 11, 2010
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Old September 11th, 2010, 10:07 PM   #1822
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China has the best HSR in the world. This is an undeniable fact. Whether politics is going to block them from winning the bid is a whole different matter, but honestly, this project is at least a decade away from even being put out to bid (when China's HSR will be even better).
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Old September 11th, 2010, 11:22 PM   #1823
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Japan kills whales!
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Old September 11th, 2010, 11:32 PM   #1824
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Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
Dissapointing that the US is playing politics over this.

Anyway

U.S. envoy Roos 'amazed' at maglev train after riding on test track
by the way, how's the maglev project in Japan going? If I remember correctly, they plan to open the line by 2025/7. Why so late?
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Old September 11th, 2010, 11:40 PM   #1825
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
by the way, how's the maglev project in Japan going? If I remember correctly, they plan to open the line by 2025/7. Why so late?
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...ighlight=japan
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Old September 11th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #1826
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US states can barely afford HSR. Maglev tech won't ever make it here.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 01:45 AM   #1827
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Well, ever is a long time. Back in the 1940's if you would have said in 20 years almost all rail in the US would be torn up, you probably would have seemed crazy.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 04:41 AM   #1828
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Originally Posted by dumbfword View Post
US states can barely afford HSR. Maglev tech won't ever make it here.
If the feds offered a 90 10 match, it would take off like the Interstate Highway system. If we were to do a similar investment in rail like what France did, it would be to the tune of $470 billion. That would provide quite a few HSL lines.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 05:14 AM   #1829
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If the feds offered a 90 10 match, it would take off like the Interstate Highway system. If we were to do a similar investment in rail like what France did, it would be to the tune of $470 billion. That would provide quite a few HSL lines.
Interstate Highway was done when the country was booming and didn't have over 14 trillion in debt and massive yearly budget deficits.

Too bad the gov couldn't trim 200 billion off the defense budget for HSR projects.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 03:22 AM   #1830
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i guess the Chinese and Koreans cant build our railways cause we killed millions of them in 1800's to mid 30's to build railways in the states.
I think you can exclude the Koreans there since none of them built US railways.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 05:36 AM   #1831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
China has the best HSR in the world. This is an undeniable fact. Whether politics is going to block them from winning the bid is a whole different matter, but honestly, this project is at least a decade away from even being put out to bid (when China's HSR will be even better).
Best HSR in the world, huh? I guess those tech-transfers paid off.

But anyways, if China is offering the best bid for the cheapest price, and agrees to manufacture at least SOME parts in the US (this should be required by all bidders), then I say go for China. If it can't meet that criteria then either pull this dumb law of transportation of people during holocaust and choose another bidder. I saw a story about Schwarzenegger thinking about the Chinese bid. I'll look it up.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 05:45 AM   #1832
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Schwarzenegger checks out China's high-speed rail

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SHANGHAI Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is engaging in a little window-shopping of China's new high-speed train lines while peddling Californian exports and tourism in the world's second-largest economy.
His own state budget $19 billion in the red, Schwarzenegger says he is hoping for some "creative financing" from Asia to help lower costs and get California's proposed high-speed rail lines up and running.
Industry experts say cash-rich China may be best placed to help with funding, and less risk averse than others whose banks are still recovering from the financial crisis. That could prove a key competitive advantage as it goes head-to-head against better established high-speed rivals rail in Asia and Europe.
"That is something very attractive about the Chinese which the Europeans will find very difficult to compete with," said Michael Clausecker, director general of Unife, the Association of the European Rail Industry. "Even in America, finance is a scarce resource. Rail investments need a lot of investment up front."

China has invested huge prestige, and tens of billions of dollars, in its high-speed rail industry building on mostly European know-how acquired in joint ventures with Siemens AG, Alstom SA and to a lesser extent Japan's "Shinkansen" bullet train operators. It is gearing up to fight for a chunk of what Unife estimates to be a 122 billion euros ($155 billion)-a-year global market for railways.

Schwarzenegger posed for photos Sunday on a high-speed train in Shanghai, after spending Saturday, the first day of his weeklong trade mission of nearly 100 business leaders, hobnobbing in Hangzhou with Jack Ma, founder of Internet trading behemoth Alibaba.com, and other Chinese entrepreneurs.

"Today what I have seen is very, very impressive. We hope China is part of the bidding process, along with other countries around the world, so that we can build high speed rail as inexpensively as possible," he told reporters.

He also announced a plan for Silicon Valley to bid for the 2020 World Expo, which would be California's first time to host the event since 1940.

The governor will also check out high-speed rail in Japan and South Korea two others among at least seven countries that have officially shown interest in helping develop California's system assuming the state can find the money.
"There is great potential over there and in Japan and Korea, when it comes to building our high-speed rail and also providing the money for building the high-speed rail," Schwarzenegger told reporters before leaving California.

The fact-finding mission is also aimed at better understanding the technologies on offer.

"He will learn a lot from that," said T.C. Kao, director of the Railway Technology Research Center at National Taiwan University, who has introduced many U.S. delegations to the technology.

"They get the impression, 'We need it.' They feel behind," he said. "You have to experience it to understand."

The U.S. is the world leader in freight railway technology but has almost no high-speed rail expertise. It will have to import the technology for the 13 regional projects that have won $8.5 billion in initial federal funding, with $2.5 billion more to come this year and hundreds of billions needed before lines are up and running.China already has the world's longest high-speed rail network, about 4,300 miles (6,920 kilometers) of routes, including nearly 1,250 miles (2,000 kilometers) that can run at top speeds of 220 miles per hour (350 kph). It aims to develop 9,900 miles (16,000 kilometers) of such routes by 2020.
All of that construction involves "highly sophisticated work on infrastructure, on rails and design of track structure," says Chris Barkan, director of the Railroad Engineering Program at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champagne, who recently toured facilities in China, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.

A visit to a mammoth manufacturing plant in the eastern city of Qingdao "absolutely blew me away," he says.

Having already build up a huge capacity for manufacturing trains and the systems to serve them, China is looking for a chance to prove it has the wherewithall to export the most advanced technology. "China now owns the most advanced high-speed rail technology and winning contracts in the U.S. would surely help it to sell more to other countries," said He Xin, an industry analyst at Donghai Securities in Beijing.

Other industry experts say it is difficult to know just how much China has achieved on its own. Both European and Japanese industry officials have expressed skepticism.
But Chinese officials insist the technology they plan to export is truly their own. They also have hired American lawyers to check for potential intellectual property problems, says T.C. Kao, director of the Railway Technology Research Center at National Taiwan University.

"China is probably pretty sure it can pass the test on IP," says Kao, former vice president of Taiwan's high speed rail company. "China has copied, yes, but it has improved on the technology. Many things have been altered."

Kao and other experts say that as newcomers, the Chinese would face logistical and regulatory challenges in entering a brand new market, compared with companies like Siemens, Alstom SA and Canada's Bombadier Inc. which already have train factories in the U.S.

But China's experience in gradually raising the speeds of its train systems and then adding high-speed rail, sometimes on dual-use tracks, may give it an edge in designing systems suitable for the U.S., which in most areas plans a similar incremental approach.

South Korea's KTX high-speed rail, which is based on France's TGV technology, shares the same advantage, said Kim Seok-gi, director of the international railroad division at South Korea's Ministry of Land, Transport and Maritime Affairs.

South Korea is "absolutely interested" in California's projects and meanwhile is preparing a bid for a high-speed rail project in Brazil linking Rio de Janiero, Sao Paulo and Campinas, he said.

For Japan, which pioneered high-speed rail in 1964, billions in contracts would be a welcome boost to the faltering economy. But its bullet trains, despite their impeccable record for safety and efficiency, run on dedicated tracks.

California and other states will eventually have to adapt whatever systems they choose to local conditions, and step up training of engineers and other personnel needed to build and run those trains by "orders of magnitude," said Barkan from the European rail industry group.

"We're not going to be able to pick up train technology from elsewhere, drop it down in the United States and expect it to work perfectly," he said. "The question is where is the intellectual talent to build all these systems?"
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Old September 13th, 2010, 07:03 AM   #1833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbfword View Post
Interstate Highway was done when the country was booming and didn't have over 14 trillion in debt and massive yearly budget deficits.

Too bad the gov couldn't trim 200 billion off the defense budget for HSR projects.
And yet major projects like the Hoover Dam, Tennessee Valley Authority, etc were built during the Great Depression.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 08:48 AM   #1834
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And yet major projects like the Hoover Dam, Tennessee Valley Authority, etc were built during the Great Depression.
Yeah. The hoover dam cost about 48 million in 1931 which adjusted for inflation is like 600 million compared to the what? 46 BILLION needed for California high speed rail project.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 02:51 PM   #1835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
China has the best HSR in the world. This is an undeniable fact.
Yea, but it wasn't designed by Chinese, both rolling stocks and railways.

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this project is at least a decade away from even being put out to bid
States better act fast if they were to tab into federal funding.

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Originally Posted by đđeůx View Post
Best HSR in the world, huh? I guess those tech-transfers paid off.
I think the word "license" doesn't exist in Chinese(This is a joke. Of course it does).

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But anyways, if China is offering the best bid for the cheapest price, and agrees to manufacture at least SOME parts in the US (this should be required by all bidders), then I say go for China.
Two problems.

1. IPR Lawsuits from Kawasaki/JR East.
2. FRA crashworthiness regulation.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 03:19 PM   #1836
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Yea, but it wasn't designed by Chinese, both rolling stocks and railways.
if technology is psrt of the deal, then european & Japanese got the money, & Chinese got the technics, I can't see anything wrong here
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Old September 13th, 2010, 03:40 PM   #1837
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if technology is psrt of the deal, then european & Japanese got the money, & Chinese got the technics, I can't see anything wrong here
Foreign vendors "licensed" their technology for use only in China, not "sold". Chinese licensees have the right to use the licensed technology within the specified territory(China only), but not outside of licensed territory. The difficulty is to get the Chinese to understand licensed != sold to the Chinese. Chinese are free to learn from licensed technology, then go back to drawing board and build their own version from scratch, like Koreans did.(This is why Alstom has been silent about KTX-II, while calling for a worldwide export ban on Chinese trains). Then the resulting product becomes exportable. But not CRH380A in its present condition.

Foreign vendors' mistake was to assume that Chinese would live up to the terms of bargain like Korea and Taiwan did based on their past experiences in use of licensed technology.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 03:54 PM   #1838
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South Korea had its own program but it was staggering. They then bought the TGV to make the KTX while they kept progressing on their own program, of course the KTX II might have gained from the experience they've acquired from the TGV/KTX but it's nonetheless an evolution from their own program.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 04:14 PM   #1839
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South Korea had its own program but it was staggering. They then bought the TGV to make the KTX while they kept progressing on their own program, of course the KTX II might have gained from the experience they've acquired from the TGV/KTX but it's nonetheless an evolution from their own program.
The key point is that KTX-II uses experiences gained from working on TGV-K but is not a copy of TGV-K; this is why KTX-II passes IPR test and why Alstom remains silent about it while competing against it in Brazil and Florida HSR projects.

If Chinese played the ball by the rule the hard way like Koreans did, then we wouldn't have this IPR disputes associated with Chinese bullet trains right now. Accordingly, Chinese are really banned from selling their train models in the US for the next 10 years or so, until they come up with a 100% indigenous design, or cut some kind of deal with Kawasaki on export of CRH380A. Cutting a deal with Kawasaki is easier than waiting 10 years for the maturity of Chinese indigenous design.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 04:50 PM   #1840
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One thing is for sure, if Kawasaki "Sold" their technology then Kawasaki no longer have the right to use that technology in question without paying loyalty to the present technology owner since that is not happening it is safe to say that Kawasaki licensed the technology in question and not sold it, now here comes the slippery part, depending on the license agreement it can apply various limitation including enhancement based on the technology in question since the patent will cover the base technology.
Based on the term of the contract, licensing could also allow the licensee to export products based on the technology in question but for every product sold loyalty occurs and the licensee is required to pay the due amount to the license holder.
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