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Old September 13th, 2010, 05:05 PM   #1841
HyperMiler
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
now here comes the slippery part, depending on the license agreement it can apply various limitation including enhancement based on the technology in question
License like this is usually territory restricted. In other word, transferred technology is valid for use only in China. The way to get around this is reverse-engineering, which Chinese have not bothered to do. They just took CRH2, modified it somewhat, and are now calling it CRH380A.

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but for every product sold loyalty occurs and the licensee is required to pay the due amount to the license holder.
Kawasaki almost certainly did not grant this kind of license to CSR.

There is a possibility that Kawasaki might grant a California license to let Chinese bid in exchange for a something like 10% royalty because of the bad publicity associated with Japan's bid. Even if CSR somehow secures Kawasaki export license, they still have to deal with FRA's crashworthiness regulations, which is impossible with their current E2 based design.

I actually get the feeling that Chinese aren't too knowledgeable on what's required to bid on US projects.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 12:14 AM   #1842
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One thing is for sure, if Kawasaki "Sold" their technology then Kawasaki no longer have the right to use that technology in question without paying loyalty to the present technology owner since that is not happening it is safe to say that Kawasaki licensed the technology in question and not sold it, now here comes the slippery part, depending on the license agreement it can apply various limitation including enhancement based on the technology in question since the patent will cover the base technology.
Based on the term of the contract, licensing could also allow the licensee to export products based on the technology in question but for every product sold loyalty occurs and the licensee is required to pay the due amount to the license holder.
The contract could also fail to cover that topic altogether. A much more likely scenario is that the chinese will try to export something that evolved from but not identical with a prototype imported, and subcontract some parts to foreign companies like Knorr or Hitachi (these are companies that are in fact supplying parts for one version of china's CRH380A, which evolved from CRH2).

But in no way will Kawasaki get any "royalties", much less loyalty from the Chinese
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Old September 14th, 2010, 12:37 AM   #1843
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The contract could also fail to cover that topic altogether.
We know that Kawasaki obtained a signed waiver document releasing them from CRH2's warranty obligations once they found out that the Chinese were speeding them beyond design speed limit of 270 km/hr, so this topic is covered in the contract.

Chinese were explicitly banned from modifying CRH2 and speeding them beyond 270 km/hr in the sales contract, and Chinese actions released Kawasaki from its warranty obligations.

And yes, CSR will face a IPR infringement lawsuit in the US if they attempt to bring CRH380A to the US. This is the US, the intellectual property lawsuit capital of the world, that we are talking about. The best Chinese can hope for is to pray that Japanese drop their US bids due to bad WWII POW transportation publicity, and then negotiate a technology license with Kawasaki for US projects.

Last edited by HyperMiler; September 14th, 2010 at 12:44 AM.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 12:00 PM   #1844
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Old September 15th, 2010, 06:44 AM   #1845
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Schwarzenegger 'impressed' by smooth Shinkansen ride
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California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger appeared impressed Tuesday after his sneak preview of the latest Shinkansen bullet train technology in a test ride on the Tohoku Shinkansen Line between Tokyo and Omiya in Saitama Prefecture.

The 63-year-old Schwarzenegger told reporters after disembarking from the E5 bullet train at JR Tokyo Station that he found the ride "very quiet" and "very futuristic."

"I was very impressed with the technology and the infrastructure," Schwarzenegger said.

The E5 Shinkansen will travel at up to 320 kph, faster than any domestic train now in service. The new model is scheduled to begin service in March.

Schwarzenegger made the special round trip between Tokyo and Omiya in a Green Car first-class coach, accompanied by East Japan Railway Co. and transport ministry officials.

The demonstration was part of Japan's campaign to pitch the Shinkansen technology as a contender for a planned 1,300-kilometer high-speed railway system to be built in California, part of a project to expand high-speed rail services in 13 regions in the United States.

JR East has formed a consortium with a trading company and a train body maker to bid on the project to supply trains and railway operation systems to California. The Japanese team is pitted against other contenders, including those from China and several European countries.

On Sunday, Schwarzenegger was in China, where he took a ride aboard a Chinese Harmony (Hexie) super express train.
Japan Offers California Loan for $40 Billion High-Speed Train
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By Chris Cooper and Kiyotaka Matsuda - Sep 13, 2010 6:56 PM PT

Japan said it’s ready to lend California money to help pay for a planned high-speed railroad as trainmakers from Asia to Europe compete for work on a project that will cost at least $40 billion.

The state-owned Japan Bank for International Cooperation is prepared to lend funds, Japan’s Transport Minister Seiji Maehara told reporters late yesterday in Tokyo after meeting with California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. He declined to comment on the amount of the possible loan.

Schwarzenegger was today set to ride a Japanese bullet train able to reach speeds of 275 kph (171 mph) as part of an Asia tour that includes looking for contractors and funds to help with a planned 432-mile Los Angeles-to-San Francisco high-speed rail link. Japan is offering a loan to California, which is wrestling with a $19.1 billion deficit, to help companies including East Japan Railway Co. compete with Chinese, South Korean and European rivals.

“They have to get money from some place,” said Edwin Merner, president of Atlantis Investment Research Corp. in Tokyo, which manages about $3 billion in assets. “Japanese trains are going to cost more, but they’re going to last.”

Encouraging Bids

Schwarzenegger rode on a Chinese high-speed train on Sept. 12 and he is also set for a similar trip in South Korea. California has encouraged Asian companies including East Japan Railway, China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock Corp. and Hyundai Rotem Co. to bid on the high-speed rail project.

“Japan has a genius mind,” Schwarzenegger said today at an American Chamber of Commerce Japan breakfast in Tokyo. “California wants to have that kind of mind and technology to build our high-speed train.” The state is encouraging bids on the project from Japan, China, South Korea, France and Germany.

Maehara yesterday said he may go to the U.S. next year to help stoke sales of Japanese bullet trains. He’s visited the country twice this year after U.S. President Barack Obama awarded $8 billion of federal funds to help support high- speed rail projects nationwide.

Japan earlier this year made it possible for JBIC to provide financing for U.S. high-speed train lines to help the sales push.

Japan’s ‘Strength’

“Japan’s strength lies not only in being able to provide finance but also in the quality of the product,” said Ryota Himeno, an analyst at Mitsubishi UFJ Morgan Stanley Securities Co. “China and South Korea lag behind in terms of operating experience.”

Schwarzenegger also met with Japan Prime Minister Naoto Kan, Maehara said, without elaborating.

“By exporting Japanese technology we can strengthen ties with another country and help Japanese companies,” Maehara said.

California won $2.3 billion of federal funds to help build the high-speed train, the biggest award in Obama’s high-speed rail funding program. The state also approved in 2008 a $10 billion bond sale to help fund the line, which is due to start services in 2020.

The California State Auditor has said that the state’s business plan for the high-speed rail network doesn’t include steps to replace all of the $17 billion to $19 billion in federal funds initially envisioned for the system.

‘Risks Significant Delays’

“The program risks significant delays without more well-developed plans for obtaining or replacing federal funds,” the April 2010 report signed by State Auditor Elaine Howle said.

California expects bids from about 10 trainmakers for the project and construction may start as early as the first half of 2012, the California High Speed Rail Authority said earlier this year. The train service will whisk passengers between Los Angeles and San Francisco in less than 2 hours and 40 minutes, according to the state-backed group’s website. The railway would eventually be extended to San Diego.

China’s Ministry of Rail yesterday signed a memorandum of understanding with the Bay Area Council, an advocacy group for businesses in the San Francisco bay area, to help it find partners in a California for a bid on high-speed rail work, John Grubb, council vice president, external affairs, said in an e-mail today. The agreement is not exclusive, while China is the only country and potential bidder that has asked, Grubb said.

The council agreement with the rail ministry was reported earlier in the China Daily.

U.S. Transport Secretary Ray LaHood visited Japan earlier this year and took a ride on a JR East bullet train.

To contact the reporters on this story: Chris Cooper in Tokyo at [email protected]
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Old September 15th, 2010, 11:04 AM   #1846
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
We know that Kawasaki obtained a signed waiver document releasing them from CRH2's warranty obligations once they found out that the Chinese were speeding them beyond design speed limit of 270 km/hr, so this topic is covered in the contract.

Chinese were explicitly banned from modifying CRH2 and speeding them beyond 270 km/hr in the sales contract, and Chinese actions released Kawasaki from its warranty obligations.

And yes, CSR will face a IPR infringement lawsuit in the US if they attempt to bring CRH380A to the US. This is the US, the intellectual property lawsuit capital of the world, that we are talking about. The best Chinese can hope for is to pray that Japanese drop their US bids due to bad WWII POW transportation publicity, and then negotiate a technology license with Kawasaki for US projects.
You still have problems grasping the new reality. China has made vast improvements over the whatever Kawasaki design. The Chinese added their own technology, and after extensive tests, they are now superior to the Kawasaki design, and therefore the Chinese trains can go faster than 270 km/h safely.

The Chinese are free to sell their own superior technology to whoever they want. Kawasaki can do nothing whatsoever, since the Chinese owns the new technology that they developed themselves.

Last edited by maldini; September 15th, 2010 at 11:12 AM.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 11:24 AM   #1847
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You still have problems grasping the new reality. China has made vast improvements over the whatever Kawasaki design. The Chinese added their own technology, and after extensive tests, they are now superior to the Kawasaki design,
You and the Chinese do not understand the US and European intellectual property law then. What Chinese did is a derivative work on a prior art. Chinese modifications do not make Kawasaki's original art disappear or make it Chinese, it's still there and Chinese are infringing on Kawasaki's intellectual property under the US and EU intellectual property laws.

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and therefore the Chinese trains can go faster than 270 km/h safely.
According to Kawasaki, it is not safe to speed CRH2 beyond the design speed limit of 270 km/h. But we all know Chinese disregard for safety.

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The Chinese are free to sell their own superior technology to whoever they want.
Chinese can sell their portion of work to 3rd party, But the buying party still needs a license from Kawasaki for the rest of work.

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Kawasaki can do nothing whatsoever
Kawasaki can sue the Chinese in the US and EU court, like they already threatened to if Chinese bid on US projects

Quote:
since the Chinese owns the new technology that they developed themselves.
But Chinese do not own something like 90% of intellectual property that makes up CRH380A.

The only way Chinese could sell its model in the US is to start over from scratch, like Koreans did with KTX-II. But Chinese may find that it's not worth it since they could sell stolen Kawasaki technology freely in China and 3rd world countries.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 01:23 PM   #1848
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
You and the Chinese do not understand the US and European intellectual property law then. What Chinese did is a derivative work on a prior art. Chinese modifications do not make Kawasaki's original art disappear or make it Chinese, it's still there and Chinese are infringing on Kawasaki's intellectual property under the US and EU intellectual property laws.


According to Kawasaki, it is not safe to speed CRH2 beyond the design speed limit of 270 km/h. But we all know Chinese disregard for safety.


Chinese can sell their portion of work to 3rd party, But the buying party still needs a license from Kawasaki for the rest of work.


Kawasaki can sue the Chinese in the US and EU court, like they already threatened to if Chinese bid on US projects


But Chinese do not own something like 90% of intellectual property that makes up CRH380A.

The only way Chinese could sell its model in the US is to start over from scratch, like Koreans did with KTX-II. But Chinese may find that it's not worth it since they could sell stolen Kawasaki technology freely in China and 3rd world countries.
First, since the Chinese modified the Kawasaki design, it's entirely possible (and likely) that the design changes they made make it possible to safely go much faster than the 270km/h limit that Kawasaki gave. The 270km/h limit was for Kawasaki's original unmodified design and has no relevance to the modified Chinese design.

Second, if the CRH380 was 'stolen' technology that violates IPR, as you claim, then there's no way the Chinese would have hired American lawyers to check the design for any possible violations of IPR law. They're obviously pretty certain that the modifications are so large as to not constitute stolen technology.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 03:55 PM   #1849
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First, since the Chinese modified the Kawasaki design, it's entirely possible (and likely) that the design changes they made make it possible to safely go much faster than the 270km/h limit that Kawasaki gave. The 270km/h limit was for Kawasaki's original unmodified design and has no relevance to the modified Chinese design.

Second, if the CRH380 was 'stolen' technology that violates IPR, as you claim, then there's no way the Chinese would have hired American lawyers to check the design for any possible violations of IPR law. They're obviously pretty certain that the modifications are so large as to not constitute stolen technology.
Why do you bother arguing with that HyperMiler guy? You know the type: the Korean nationalist who claims Confucius was a Korean (reminds me of the claim that Jesus was black. Same kind of inferiority complex at work). No specification of the various versions of CRH380 has been made public, and now he already claims he knows how much of the components is Chinese and how much is foreign.

He's on my ignore list where he belongs. Wish he's on yours as well, so that I can be spared of reading him even in quotes
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Old September 15th, 2010, 05:19 PM   #1850
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First, since the Chinese modified the Kawasaki design, it's entirely possible (and likely) that the design changes they made make it possible to safely go much faster than the 270km/h limit that Kawasaki gave.
I give you an analogy.

Let's say you have a stock Honda Civic with a top speed of 140 mph. Let's say you are a ricer who is going to turbocharge the engine so that it can now go 180 mph. Now can you drive your modified Civic at 180 mph? Yes. Is it safe to do so? Nope. That Civic was never meant to go at 180 mph. It's the cars like Ferrari that are meant to go 180 mph or higher.

Shinkansen E2 had a design speed limit of 270 km/h because that was the speed limit of Shinkansen track without tilting. It was never meant to go faster than 270 km/h if there were better tracks available in China.

Quote:
The 270km/h limit was for Kawasaki's original unmodified design and has no relevance to the modified Chinese design.
What do you mean by "no relevance"? Chinese modified Kawasaki design. Of course Kawasaki design is always relevant.

Quote:
Second, if the CRH380 was 'stolen' technology that violates IPR, as you claim, then there's no way the Chinese would have hired American lawyers to check the design for any possible violations of IPR law.
And that American IPR lawyer should have advised his Chinese client that they should seek a license from Kawasaki/JR East.

Quote:
They're obviously pretty certain that the modifications are so large as to not constitute stolen technology.
The only way to beat Kawasaki's intellectual property rights is to start over from scratch. Not a single Kawasaki drawing must be used to design a Kawasaki-IP free CRH380A, which will take 8 years minimum to design and field test based on best practices in Japan and Korea.

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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Why do you bother arguing with that HyperMiler guy?
Because I am more interesting than you are.

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You know the type: the Korean nationalist who claims Confucius was a Korean
The original source of that claim was a Chinese newspaper. Of course you are too stupid to understand that.

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Same kind of inferiority complex at work
That's an odd statement, since Koreans are racists who look down on Chinese. It is Chinese who have inferiority complex against Koreans, not Koreans against Chinese.

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No specification of the various versions of CRH380 has been made public
But we know where these various versions of CRH380s are from.

Quote:
and now he already claims he knows how much of the components is Chinese and how much is foreign.
CRH380A are basically CRH2 and CRH3 models that have foreign supplied parts replaced with Chinese copies of them. At least CSR's version had a facia change to make them look slightly different, whereas CNR didn't even bother to do so. It's not a rocket science.

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He's on my ignore list where he belongs.
I know you read mine.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 07:08 PM   #1851
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Any loan given to the state of California for high speed rail construction would be considered sub-sub-sub-prime. Good luck getting your money back from a kid who's broke and whose parents are bankrupt. 45 billion $ to construct CA's network is a wetdream. They'll need at least a hundred billion.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #1852
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(Mostly in Japanese, but Governator's parts are in English)
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Old September 15th, 2010, 09:20 PM   #1853
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The E5 is so nice. It's the most energy efficient high speed train in the world, and it will operate 320 km/h in Japan (and only because of noise pollution and old tracks). I imagine it's probably the most expensive one too though.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 09:31 PM   #1854
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The E5 is so nice. It's the most energy efficient high speed train in the world, and it will operate 320 km/h in Japan (and only because of noise pollution and old tracks). I imagine it's probably the most expensive one too though.
E5 won't be offered in California; it will be E6. There is still no guarantee that E6 could win FRA approval unlike other UIC-spec TGV, Velaro, and KTX-II already cleared to run on Caltrain corridor.

It is the energy efficiency and light weight of Shinkansen that's backfiring on Japanese in the US.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 09:59 PM   #1855
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Do you know what? In my personal opinion trains like tgv, KTX-II etc are too small for California standards that have 2 seaters and 1 seater in two rows, not meaning to be too pessimistic about it though.
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Old September 16th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #1856
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Originally Posted by quashlo View Post

(Mostly in Japanese, but Governator's parts are in English)
wow, the Japanese girls in the video were crazy after Schwarzenegger Are you somewhere in there too, Nihonkitty?

And I agree, energy efficiency of Japanese trains is really a top attraction.
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Old September 16th, 2010, 12:55 AM   #1857
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http://twitter.com/Schwarzenegger

I have been checking out Arnold Schwarzenegger's twit. Seems that out of three 30 minute demonstration train rides he took, only Korean ride appears to have hit 300 km/hr on the demo run as it is being mentioned in Arnold's twit. It is known that Japanese demo ran at a slower top speed and the speed of Chinese CRH3 ride is unknown.

That was a pretty impressive acceleration performance for KTX-II, as it went from 120 to 300 km/hr, then down to full stop on a short 46 mile corridor. This verifies KTX-II's claim that it is slightly faster than Shinkansen 700 series(But slower than N700, the fastest accelerating bullet train in the world) on acceleration and much faster than TGV, some feat considering it is a locomotive pulled system and not an EMU.
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Old September 16th, 2010, 01:20 AM   #1858
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
I give you an analogy.

Let's say you have a stock Honda Civic with a top speed of 140 mph. Let's say you are a ricer who is going to turbocharge the engine so that it can now go 180 mph. Now can you drive your modified Civic at 180 mph? Yes. Is it safe to do so? Nope. That Civic was never meant to go at 180 mph. It's the cars like Ferrari that are meant to go 180 mph or higher.

Shinkansen E2 had a design speed limit of 270 km/h because that was the speed limit of Shinkansen track without tilting. It was never meant to go faster than 270 km/h if there were better tracks available in China.
Your analogy assumes the only thing that was changed was the engine. If I take that civic and upgrade the brakes, the tires, the suspension, the aerodynamics, and increase the downforce, and run it on the smoothest race track designed for high speed driving available, as well as increasing the power, the original top speed would have little relevance to my new Civic, which I could now safely run at a much higher speed than 140mph thanks to my vast changes to the design and my use of the most advanced race track around.
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Last edited by The Chemist; September 16th, 2010 at 01:31 AM.
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Old September 16th, 2010, 02:07 AM   #1859
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Do you know what? In my personal opinion trains like tgv, KTX-II etc are too small for California standards that have 2 seaters and 1 seater in two rows, not meaning to be too pessimistic about it though.
Making the car body a bit bigger to put more seats in is really easy though. That won't be an issue for any train manufacturer - for example the Russian and Chinese variants of the Velaro have bigger car bodies than the original ICE 3 in Germany.
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Old September 16th, 2010, 02:52 AM   #1860
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Yeah. The hoover dam cost about 48 million in 1931 which adjusted for inflation is like 600 million compared to the what? 46 BILLION needed for California high speed rail project.
I understand that you are comparing fiscal impacts of the two projects, but are you seriously going to insinuate that labor standards, environmental standards, and material costs are comparative between the two periods?
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