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Old September 6th, 2016, 12:56 PM   #61
jonasry
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
I definitely feel safer in the inner city stations than those on the blue line, though. Seriously, have you been out to Rinkeby/Tensta these days? Waiting on the platforms can feel very intimidating at times. It's a bit like catching the Södertälje pendeltåg later at night as well - with gangs on there drinking and being obnoxious it really feels uncomfortable. I honestly don't know what the situation is like down in Malmö with Rosengård, which is why I asked.
Well, it's a huge issue that how people perceive crime differs hugely from actual occurrences of crime.

Anyway, as these trains will mostly run during daytime, there will be little to worry about. Most important thing is that poor communities will be connected to more job opportunities.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 02:04 PM   #62
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But not always. http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kr...cle22190105.ab

http://www.svd.se/bla-tunnelbanelinjen-mest-otrygg

Hence why I say there is a noticeable uncomfortable feeling in these districts. I lived in Hallunda for 14 months and indeed, I can tell you that I got threatened with a knife at the metro station.

If you truly believe this won't affect the ridership or perception of safety then I believe you, but from the Stockholm example, having a rail connection to a poorer and more crime-ridden place does not necessarily result in a better situation for the residents of that area, nor does it improve the perception of safety on the means of transport to and from the station.
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Old September 7th, 2016, 11:36 AM   #63
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It seems very problematic to me to not connect poorer/socially disadvantaged areas with the inner city through good communications because of a fear of crime. Talk about perpetuating the cycle of segregation. Those areas need those connections so that people who can't afford cars can work in other parts of town, so that kids and teenagers can attend better schools in other areas, and so that hopefully those areas can over time be transformed into more socially diverse neighborhoods.
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Old September 7th, 2016, 12:51 PM   #64
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It seems very problematic to me to not connect poorer/socially disadvantaged areas with the inner city through good communications because of a fear of crime. Talk about perpetuating the cycle of segregation. Those areas need those connections so that people who can't afford cars can work in other parts of town, so that kids and teenagers can attend better schools in other areas, and so that hopefully those areas can over time be transformed into more socially diverse neighborhoods.
So why did it not work in Norsborg, in Tensta, in Rinkeby, in Södertälje or in Husby? These areas all have good transport links - in fact better transport links than many less problematic areas (Nacka, Tyresö, Täby). The areas in Malmö are not segregated or isolated if they are served by buses, which they are at present, much like the rest of the city in fact. Unless you believe that other areas of the city are segregated because they don't have a rail line.
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Old September 8th, 2016, 11:02 AM   #65
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Connectivity isn't all there is to make an area popular or not. Apart from all the other factors: Look at the planning and architecture. Here you'll find a clear pattern of which areas are poor or not.
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Old September 8th, 2016, 11:57 AM   #66
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Connectivity isn't all there is to make an area popular or not. Apart from all the other factors: Look at the planning and architecture. Here you'll find a clear pattern of which areas are poor or not.
Absolutely, and I think you and I had this discussion previously where you and I said the same things about the Million Programme suburbs. The key point I wanted to address is that improved transportation does not necessarily improve the area, and actually that said transportation can be negatively impacted due to the area that it goes through as seen with the blue line in Stockholm, so I simply asked the question as to whether or not running through Rosengård was such a good idea in terms of the perception of safety on the line.
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Old September 8th, 2016, 01:06 PM   #67
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I'd say that is indeed an issue but one that often is far more about feeling than actual dangers. E.g. How there's people in Nacka & Täby (in Stockholm) who don't want subways to be built there because at the other end of the lines (i.e. way on the other side of the inner city) there's bad neighborhoods.
If it's what will be the next station over tho, then there might be something to the concern, yes. Not sure how to handle that in the actual infrastructure. I'd say more and better policing is the real answer.
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Old September 10th, 2016, 03:23 PM   #68
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So why did it not work in Norsborg, in Tensta, in Rinkeby, in Södertälje or in Husby? These areas all have good transport links - in fact better transport links than many less problematic areas (Nacka, Tyresö, Täby). The areas in Malmö are not segregated or isolated if they are served by buses, which they are at present, much like the rest of the city in fact. Unless you believe that other areas of the city are segregated because they don't have a rail line.
I did not suggest that public transportation magically solves social problems. Public transportation is one factor among many that can, together, help residents in a disadvantaged area to improve their lives and hopefully the lives of their neighbors. I think it's a pretty cynical breach of the social contract if the government (be it local or national) chooses not to make the same kind of investments in a disadvantaged area as it does in other parts of a town because people in richer areas might perceive public transportation as unsafe. You combat that through security measure at stations and in trains, not by abandoning the areas deemed unsafe. That just lead to a spiral of residents feeling rejected and less integrated in society.

Buses are great. I grew up outside of the subway network and has spend most of my life riding buses. In a city without subway or trams, buses are an equal mode of transport. But in a city with a subway/rail system, that system has got a symbolic meaning. There's an inherent hierarchy to the different types of transportation. If you only see those networks being expanded to rich areas, it matters.

Nacka, Tyresö and Täby have a lot of single family homes, and large percentages of the population have cars. That's not comparable to a neighborhood of multistory apartment blocks mostly filled with low wage- or unemployed people.
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Old September 10th, 2016, 06:04 PM   #69
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Are we going down the way of Los Angeles already here in Europe as well? Where people oppose PT because criminals may use it or be present in the area. That would be worrying.
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Old September 10th, 2016, 07:06 PM   #70
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Are we going down the way of Los Angeles already here in Europe as well? Where people oppose PT because criminals may use it or be present in the area. That would be worrying.
Well, it's not about opposing it, it's simply that evidence from Stockholm shows that ridership and/or perception of safety are influenced when terminal stations of the line are located in more dangerous areas. If you think that having the middle station in one of the most problematic suburbs in Sweden will have no knock-on effect, then that's quite idealistic.

In an ideal world we wouldn't have these pockets of poverty/ghettoes in the first place, but the reality is that we're stuck with them now.
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Old September 10th, 2016, 08:19 PM   #71
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Well, call it what you prefer, if you like call it "realism". It is what still keeps PT in LA down to this very day.

But I leave it to others to decide if putting stations in safe distance to keep the poor out is the most clever thing to do. Of course, a proper risk assessment should be done and stations have to designed accordingly. This can also mean new police stations, as it has for some hot spot stops in Vienna for example. But by marginalizing the poor by making it intentionally hard for them to access PT, you will not make the city safer and most certainly will you not do anything to address structural poverty. Ghettoization trends will be only further fortified.
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Old September 10th, 2016, 08:35 PM   #72
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I agree with you, better policing is needed, but again it didn't make the blue line safer in Stockholm, and let's face it the SL staff and security are not willing to help you even when you report an issue. When I reported I was threatened by a knife (and the guy in the ticket office even saw it he refused to help me and said the police wouldn't do anything anyway).

Also, like has already been said, Rosengård would be one of the few suburbs with a rail link in Malmö. The rest of the city is bus heavy. If Malmö built a light rail system and suburbs were served without serving Rosengård then yes, that's an argument, but I don't see how it is being isolated at present. They have a very good bus service at the moment.

https://www.skanetrafiken.se/tidtabe...814_161210.pdf

https://www.skanetrafiken.se/tidtabe...814_161210.pdf

Buses are rather different from a safety viewpoint. The bus has a driver that can observe incidents and the "stations" are not as isolated so that there is less of a feeling of being exposed. I personally, if I have to go through a more dodgy area, prefer being on a bus to being on a train.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 03:26 AM   #73
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I think both sides in this discussion is forgetting that Rosengård is not a suburb. It's a 10 minute bikeride from central Malmö. And I mean central as from Triangeln. Rinkeby is probably an hour from Sergels Torg. Not that anyone would bike from there.

There are already a ton of communication from Rosengård to most parts of the city. Let the politicians use 'connecting Rosengård' as a reason to finally get this thing started. It won't do much difference for Rosengård but the rest of us are happy to get it.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 08:48 PM   #74
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I agree with you, better policing is needed, but again it didn't make the blue line safer in Stockholm, and let's face it the SL staff and security are not willing to help you even when you report an issue. When I reported I was threatened by a knife (and the guy in the ticket office even saw it he refused to help me and said the police wouldn't do anything anyway).

Also, like has already been said, Rosengård would be one of the few suburbs with a rail link in Malmö. The rest of the city is bus heavy. If Malmö built a light rail system and suburbs were served without serving Rosengård then yes, that's an argument, but I don't see how it is being isolated at present. They have a very good bus service at the moment.

Buses are rather different from a safety viewpoint. The bus has a driver that can observe incidents and the "stations" are not as isolated so that there is less of a feeling of being exposed. I personally, if I have to go through a more dodgy area, prefer being on a bus to being on a train.
Of course it is being isolated. An existing rail corridor is marked for transformation into Pendeltåg like service and one of the most obvious stations, serving probably the most people along the branch, compared to the other stations, should not be constructed, because it could be accessed mainly by the poor of the city?

The whole line makes substantialy less sense if that station is excluded for the mere reason to keep the local residents out of the system.

I know that Malmö is bus heavy, that doesn't change a thing.


If you have a policing problem (no one giving a damn about armed assault etc) then that is where you have to do something. Not building infrastructure in neighbourhoods only because they are poor (and therefore less safe) is merely repeating the grave mistakes of urban planning as it happened in the US of the 20th century.
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Old September 12th, 2016, 11:15 AM   #75
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Are we going down the way of Los Angeles already here in Europe as well? Where people oppose PT because criminals may use it or be present in the area. That would be worrying.
Going? It's been that way for decades. People in Täby outside Stockholm opposed getting the subway explicitly because they feared people from poor (and even just less well-off) areas would come to their posh suburb. Still no subway to there.
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Old September 12th, 2016, 11:49 AM   #76
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This whole discussion about "marginalising the poor" is just beyond belief. Is not like Rosengard will just become a better place when "better connected". Or if it will, then gentrification will most likely be the cause, and the poor will be the ones who will really pay the price. The main problem of Rosengard (or any place like that) is not poverty...

-------------

Anyway, for me is puzzling why, the Metro and Pendeltag don't learn from Eastern Europe. For instance, in Bucharest, each and single metro train has at least one bodyguard form a private security firm. Also, all stations have staff, and are well supervised. Therefore, almost no incident occur in the Metro network.
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Old September 12th, 2016, 07:03 PM   #77
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Going? It's been that way for decades. People in Täby outside Stockholm opposed getting the subway explicitly because they feared people from poor (and even just less well-off) areas would come to their posh suburb. Still no subway to there.
Biggest difference here, and why I don't agree with those residents, is that they are the terminus and all suburbs to the south before T-Centralen are generally well-heeled. The Rosengård station is slap bang in the middle of the line so the point I raised is rather different.

Anyway, I guess we have all said our piece so we can just agree to disagree.

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Old September 12th, 2016, 08:53 PM   #78
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Going? It's been that way for decades. People in Täby outside Stockholm opposed getting the subway explicitly because they feared people from poor (and even just less well-off) areas would come to their posh suburb. Still no subway to there.
Sad thing to hear. Luckily this kind of thinking hasn't transpired to Viennese urban region yet. Or maybe I just haven't realized its arrival yet.
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Old September 12th, 2016, 08:56 PM   #79
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This whole discussion about "marginalising the poor" is just beyond belief. Is not like Rosengard will just become a better place when "better connected". Or if it will, then gentrification will most likely be the cause, and the poor will be the ones who will really pay the price. The main problem of Rosengard (or any place like that) is not poverty...
Oh no? It is not poverty? No wait, I see where you are heading. I am out of that debate which seems to be raging on in every third thread on SCC.

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Anyway, for me is puzzling why, the Metro and Pendeltag don't learn from Eastern Europe. For instance, in Bucharest, each and single metro train has at least one bodyguard form a private security firm. Also, all stations have staff, and are well supervised. Therefore, almost no incident occur in the Metro network.
It is sad when it is needed, but I am ok with it, if it is really needed. It certainly is a lot better than not building PT because some areas should be not connected because of safety reasons.
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Old September 12th, 2016, 09:27 PM   #80
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I still don't get why you're saying it isn't connected based on the fact it has a direct bus route into the city and also is part of the ring bus route that connects all inner suburbs. Like I said, for me the security concerns for buses are very different to rail - especially unmanned/unpatrolled platforms.
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