daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 19th, 2016, 02:42 PM   #541
mw123
Registered User
 
mw123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,818
Likes (Received): 2671

Also Epping, Chatswood, Macquarie Park and Macquarie University are significant trip generators themselves. Many people travelling from the hills work in this area and will alight before Chatswood.

Similarly you are going to have a tonne of people interchanging at Epping coming from Hornsby, Strathfield and beyond. They already do this and the current trains can't keep up with the crowds entering and exiting during peak hour. I think a high capacity metro serves this purpose well.

This isn't going to be a simple commuter line with people piling on until it reaches the city in the morning. The train is going to be filling up and emptying out consistently as it moves along with multiple interchanges and cycles of passengers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
A mix of longitudinal and transverse seating would be good, but totally longitudinal seems overkill to me based on international experience.
You're probably right here to be honest. I suppose given the failures of past projects to provide enough capacity and efficiency, they've decided to err on the side of caution this time and provide an 'overcapacity' line for once. This will be the main line through the CBD once it is extended and I'm sure that patronage will be at levels Sydney has never seen before thus the need to 'future proof'.

Last edited by mw123; March 19th, 2016 at 02:54 PM.
mw123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 19th, 2016, 02:55 PM   #542
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,077
Likes (Received): 8832

Quote:
Originally Posted by mw123 View Post
Also Epping, Chatswood, Macquarie Park and Macquarie University are significant trip generators themselves. Many people travelling from the hills work in this area and will alight before Chatswood.

Similarly you are going to have a tonne of people interchanging at Epping coming from Hornsby, Strathfield and beyond. They already do this and the current trains can't keep up with the crowds entering and exiting during peak hour. I think a high capacity metro serves this purpose well.

This isn't going to be a simple commuter line with people piling on until it reaches the city in the morning. The train is going to be filling up and emptying out consistently as it moves along with multiple interchanges and cycles of passengers.
Yeah I know, which is why I compared it to three metro systems in Europe which are of course always used, not just for peak travel - especially Vienna. Heck, even Paris has transverse seating on its metro, and that is a very, very crowded system. They still manage to balance capacity and comfort for longer journeys. These cities all have multiple nodes that are trip generators and the travel is less centrally-focused in many cases compared to Sydney.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mw123 View Post
You're probably right here to be honest. I suppose given the failures of past projects to provide enough capacity and efficiency, they've decided to err on the side of caution this time and provide an 'overcapacity' line for once.
Perhaps, but it does seem to be a bit of overkill. Not meaning to be too critical here as a foreigner.
Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2016, 03:14 PM   #543
nameless dude
Registered User
 
nameless dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,071
Likes (Received): 838

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Yeah, I remember there being a lot of work planned for the area, but it's just the length of the line and distance from the CBD that made me wonder about the choice of this kind of service. This line at 36km long from Cudgegong Rd to Chatswood (forgetting the the interchange to get to the city from Chatswood that adds on another 9.5km to Wynyard. That puts it at a length of a much larger city such as Tokyo where the longest line is only 30.8km long (Tozai line). Even the Chuo rapid is 43km to Shinjuku, and that's a very, very long line. Both of these lines see massive, massive transit utilisation to justify the longitudinal seating on lines that stretch into the suburbs. At 4min peak frequency on this line do you think this kind of rolling stock is justified even with the use of feeder buses to take people onto the trains?

I mean, the Stockholm tunnelbana gets a much higher utilisation than Cityrail at 328 million / year on a network only 100km long, yet there isn't longitudinal seating here. Munich U-bahn, again, much more used than Cityrail/Sydney Trains at 390 million on 103km of network, yet they are not totally longitudinal seating. Vienna U-bahn 439 million passengers on 78.5km of network yet they don't have total longitudinal seating on their metro stock... The level of utilisation on a tiny network, hinting at high passenger density, seems to suggest that total longitudinal seating isn't required.
Well when the line is eventually extended to the CBD there'll be 15 stations from Cudgegong Road to the first CBD station, and some metro lines already have more stations than that. San Francisco's BART has lines which are almost 90km. Again this line is geared more towards longer distances than the typical inner city metro, so I think the important thing is travel times. Currently a bus trip from the outer north west to the CBD can take almost 2 hours during the peaks with the traffic. This line will apparently take 55 minutes from Rouse Hill to Wynyard, but I'll guess about 10 mins will be shaved off that time once the CBD extension opens. If that's the case then I think it'll be fairly decent considering the distance. Keep in mind though this line runs through two major employment hubs, two large shopping centres and a university, and iirc it's expected that a third of all passengers will be getting off before Chatswood.

From personal experience the Epping-Chatswood link seems pretty well patronised for Sydney Trains standards as it currently is with 8 carriage double decks running every 6-9 mins in one direction during peak hours, so with the extra people coming from the north west and the continued growth in the area both before and after the line opening it'll be interesting to see how filled the trains are as 6 carriage single decks running every 4 mins.

I recall reading somewhere they figured out that they lose only a fairly small number of seats in a longitudinal arrangement vs transverse, but get extra standing capacity so obviously they decided to go with that. Though admittedly I too would have liked to see some transverse mixed in as the early renders suggested. I also would have liked it if the seats were more ergonomically designed and padded throughout (not just a pad on top of plastic) given the longer travel times on this line. It's not the final design though, it's just a mock up so perhaps a few small things can change.

I'm not the most familiar with the line though. If you head over to the ozscrapers transport section you'll find that the talk about all this has been endless.
__________________

Svartmetall, mw123 liked this post

Last edited by nameless dude; March 19th, 2016 at 03:29 PM.
nameless dude no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2016, 03:34 PM   #544
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,077
Likes (Received): 8832

Okay, I'll take a look over there. I tend not to go there as often these days as a few characters are... Sometimes problematic.

Would be good to see absolute numbers in terms of passenger utilisation on the Epping/Chatswood link, as then I really could do direct comparisons to the systems I named above with their transverse seating.
Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2016, 03:58 PM   #545
nameless dude
Registered User
 
nameless dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,071
Likes (Received): 838

All patronage info with Sydney Trains:

http://www.bts.nsw.gov.au/Statistics...x?FolderID=223

The 'visualise data' tab might be handy.

I'm not sure about the systems you mentioned but keep in mind that Sydney Trains takes its patronage data primarily from ticket issues and station entries/exits, and not boardings/alightings from trains.


Also the government did this little demand by 2021 forecasting report back in 2014. See page 10 for the NWRL:

http://www.smh.com.au/cqstatic/13fgec/2019patronage.pdf
__________________

Svartmetall liked this post

Last edited by nameless dude; March 19th, 2016 at 04:16 PM.
nameless dude no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2016, 04:15 PM   #546
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,077
Likes (Received): 8832

It's very similar in Stockholm and every metro station has barriers. Line interchanges do not involve passing through barriers. Vienna and Munich are actually honour systems and so many people don't even stamp or validate if they have passes.

Like I said, I can only go by travel trends in Sydney at the moment and that is that Cityrail is not as utilised as those systems named, and that passenger density on those networks is much higher, yet they don't use this seating system. But I think this discussion could get very circular so I'll not harp on any more here.

I will look through the data and reports though, so thanks for those! Will take me a while to get through it all.

Anyway, sorry if I sounded too critical. I am just not a fan of longitudinal seating for the entire train as if demand is very "peak", then off-peak passengers will suffer simply because sitting sideways is not as comfortable as sitting in the direction of travel. Perhaps the solution seen in Japan with longitudinal seats that can be swung out to transverse seating to change the purpose of the train would be an even better solution.
Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2016, 04:27 PM   #547
nameless dude
Registered User
 
nameless dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,071
Likes (Received): 838

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Anyway, sorry if I sounded too critical. I am just not a fan of longitudinal seating for the entire train as if demand is very "peak", then off-peak passengers will suffer simply because sitting sideways is not as comfortable as sitting in the direction of travel.
Agreed, though the choice gets harder when it comes to sitting sideways or sitting backwards
nameless dude no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2016, 02:26 PM   #548
Mr OC Benz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Perth and Sydney
Posts: 106
Likes (Received): 135

To put some spin into this discussion, over on the west side in Perth the majority of the urban rail fleet is made up of railcars with longitudinal seating with all new trains being fitted this way and existing railcars being modified. Primary reason is to fit more standing and increase overall capacity.

While the network very much looks suburban like Sydney, the trains do operate higher speeds (100-130km/h) and almost all stations have level access onto the trains. The government were going to procure a new generation fleet of trains which would have 4 doors per side per carriage and minimal seating to maximise capacity and allow short headways. Unfortunately due to the economic situation there, it is not happening (for now). In some ways it is ridiculous that in this metro style environment, they are expecting people travelling as far as 70kms (50 mins) on the train to stand. However I think Perth people consider it the norm now to stand anyway. So as long as they can manage the crowding, then they could get away with anything else.

So it'll certainly be interesting to see what the situation will be in Sydney where I've noticed public transport users seem to be more disgruntled about change to the quality of service. Even though it will be dressed up as a metro system, whether the travel patterns will ressemble that of a metro system or not will be interesting. Geographically, the line certainly looks to ressemble more of a commuter line and unless significant developments pop up and are completed before the end of construction, it may still ressemble that for a few years yet.

Australia certainly loves taking proven concepts from around the world and mix-mashing them to come up with something often completely odd. With the added touch that the idea often takes a couple of decades to arrive in Australia anyway.
Mr OC Benz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2016, 03:33 PM   #549
nameless dude
Registered User
 
nameless dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,071
Likes (Received): 838

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr OC Benz View Post
Even though it will be dressed up as a metro system, whether the travel patterns will ressemble that of a metro system or not will be interesting. Geographically, the line certainly looks to ressemble more of a commuter line and unless significant developments pop up and are completed before the end of construction, it may still ressemble that for a few years yet.
This line has large employment, education and retail hubs along the entire length, so the travel pattern differs from a regular commuter line in that not all passengers are simply going to/from the CBD. You have large employment hubs at North Sydney, St Leonards, Chatswood and Macquarie Park and then there's Macquarie University and an interchange at Epping, and continuing along the north west once this metro opens you'll have Castle Hill and Norwest Business Park. Consequently, the line's actually pretty well patronised in both directions of travel during the peaks, not just the usual direction to/from the CBD.

Also I just noticed that a video I posted earlier shows this line during the afternoon peak so I'll post it here again (Epping-Chatswood link starts at 15:10): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVxkyN4uSTE

The video's going against the direction of travel of CBD commuters (ie going into the CBD rather than out of it during the evening), with trains coming every 6-9 mins from Epping to Chatswood, before the line merges with another line at Chatswood and becomes every 3 or so mins. I'm not sure when the video was taken but it was posted in January when some workers are still on holidays and the university semester hasn't yet started (but it would seem to be taken around that time given the apparent lack of the usual scores of uni students at Epping and Macquarie uni stations).

Other than that I agree with you. The station distancing seem to be comparable to the rest of the network so I think it'll be serving more or less the same purpose, only that it's redressed as a metro. Regarding development, notice my post #536 in this thread.

Last edited by nameless dude; March 20th, 2016 at 04:11 PM.
nameless dude no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2016, 11:37 PM   #550
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,077
Likes (Received): 8832

To make up for my little rant about seating, here is one of my videos I took in Sydney back in January. This is Rhodes station on the Sydney Trains (former Cityrail) system. I have a lot more videos even covering the Epping-Chatswood rail link (which I took twice) and also Chatswood and Central Station. So more to come.

Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 21st, 2016, 08:55 AM   #551
mw123
Registered User
 
mw123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,818
Likes (Received): 2671

More Metro Northwest construction photos:


Sydney Metro North West Skytrain update. 13.3.2016. by Tim, on Flickr


Sydney Metro North West Skytrain update. 13.3.2016. by Tim, on Flickr


Sydney Metro North West Skytrain update. 13.3.2016. by Tim, on Flickr


Sydney Metro North West Skytrain update. 8.11.2015. by Tim, on Flickr


Sydney Metro North West Skytrain update. 13.3.2016. by Tim, on Flickr


Sydney Metro North West Skytrain update. 13.3.2016. by Tim, on Flickr


Sydney Metro North West Skytrain update. 13.3.2016. by Tim, on Flickr
__________________

dimlys1994, givary98 liked this post
mw123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2016, 09:05 PM   #552
mw123
Registered User
 
mw123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,818
Likes (Received): 2671


Sydney -Mar2016 by QG Teo, on Flickr


The Manly Ferry by Alex Proimos, on Flickr


Bus Lane by Eric Fidler, on Flickr


Tram at Exhibition Centre stop Ultimo NSW 2016 (Aspect) by nicephotog, on Flickr


2016-02-05 Punchbowl 526 Mortdale by Dean Jones, on Flickr


IMG_0592 by Peter George, on Flickr
__________________

dimlys1994, Svartmetall, lkstrknb liked this post
mw123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2016, 09:16 PM   #553
mw123
Registered User
 
mw123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,818
Likes (Received): 2671

Wynyard Station Redevelopment









Transport for NSW Facebook
__________________

dimlys1994, Svartmetall liked this post
mw123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2016, 12:18 AM   #554
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,077
Likes (Received): 8832

A couple more videos from my time in Sydney.

First off we start at Martin Place. A major station on the Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra Line.






Bondi Junction is well-known to tourists, normally because of the interchange to buses to Bondi Beach. Here is a tour of the bus station and the train station.

Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 14th, 2016, 02:48 PM   #555
dimlys1994
Moderator
 
dimlys1994's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dniepropetrovsk
Posts: 16,355
Likes (Received): 26180

From Railway Gazette:

Quote:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...ng-begins.html

Sydney Harbour metro tunnel tendering begins
14 Apr 2016



AUSTRALIA: The start of tendering for a contract to build a 15·5 km twin-bore metro tunnel from Chatswood to Sydenham running under Sydney Harbour and the city centre was announced by New South Wales Minister for Transport & Infrastructure Andrew Constance on April 13.

This is the most important civil works contracts for the 30 km Sydney Metro City & Southwest project. Constance told 450 representatives from 250 companies at an industry briefing that the government expects to award the contract in mid-2017, with five tunnel boring machines to begin work by the end of 2018. Opening is planned for 2024

...
__________________
Для Вас:
Страница в ВК:

For you:
Facebook & Flickr pages

nameless dude, mw123 liked this post
dimlys1994 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2016, 03:57 PM   #556
rakcancer
Registered User
 
rakcancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: XYZ
Posts: 1,198
Likes (Received): 1170

What is a purpose and how it will be connected to the network? Is it intended to be replacement of tracks on Harbour Bridge?
rakcancer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2016, 04:40 PM   #557
nameless dude
Registered User
 
nameless dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,071
Likes (Received): 838






It's basically a new line which would divert some traffic to allow for capacity increases across the network. It'll be a standalone line so the existing tracks on the Harbour bridge are staying and will continue to be used.
__________________

dimlys1994, rakcancer, Kot Bazilio liked this post

Last edited by nameless dude; April 19th, 2016 at 04:48 PM.
nameless dude no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2016, 10:34 PM   #558
rakcancer
Registered User
 
rakcancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: XYZ
Posts: 1,198
Likes (Received): 1170

Thanks for info. This is going to be very nice addition to railway network in Sydney. I am impressed how many tunnel projects have been finished or are in development since I left Sydney over 10 years ago. Both road - Sydney Harbour Tunnel with eastern distributor, Cross City Tunnel, West Link (M7) and rail - Airport link, Olympic Park link, Extension of light rail, Metro North West with Harbour tunnel... Very impressive!
__________________

nameless dude liked this post
rakcancer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2016, 04:10 PM   #559
mw123
Registered User
 
mw123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,818
Likes (Received): 2671

Found this photo of Central Station on the Transport NSW facebook page.



Transport NSW Facebook
__________________

dimlys1994 liked this post
mw123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2016, 04:16 PM   #560
mw123
Registered User
 
mw123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,818
Likes (Received): 2671

Quote:
Originally Posted by rakcancer View Post
Thanks for info. This is going to be very nice addition to railway network in Sydney. I am impressed how many tunnel projects have been finished or are in development since I left Sydney over 10 years ago. Both road - Sydney Harbour Tunnel with eastern distributor, Cross City Tunnel, West Link (M7) and rail - Airport link, Olympic Park link, Extension of light rail, Metro North West with Harbour tunnel... Very impressive!
Also Northconnex (M2 to M1 tunnel) and Westconnex (M4 to M5 tunnel) - which will be the second longest road tunnel in the world when completed. Finally Sydney is catching up on it's infrastructure backlog.
mw123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
sydney, tram

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium