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Old October 11th, 2005, 09:50 AM   #41
BobDaBuilder
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Used the Sydney system all last week and have to say I was impressed by it.

Stayed just near King's Cross tube stop, so had access on the Bondi line. Loved it how the airport was on the underground unlike the stich up town of Melbourne where consecutive governments have refused to put in a line to thus ensure the profitability of taxi and specialist bus operators.

My query on the system was the underground out to the airports seemed to have very few actual stops for the distance covered. They should have a stop every kilometre or so to make better use of the line. That goes the same for the other lines I got about on also. They need more stops between current stations.

Saw the old tram map down at the Powerhouse museum. Basically what a shame and fortunately for Melbourne they did rip 'em out because Melbourne would have absolutely nothing to hang her hat on then.

Gotta say, I am pretty tempted to move up to Sydney. Love the Darlo, Kings X and Paddo area. Magic. Those Walsh piers next to the bridge look interesting. Would mind one of those little dinghys the locals keep there.

p.s. what the hell is the point of Fox Studios, and what a shame they put this in instead of leaving it as a showground. That for mine, was the biggest disapointment in Sydney. That was a crime to let that happen.
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Old October 11th, 2005, 04:58 PM   #42
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Olympic Park Station... Is it underground or above ground station????
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Old October 11th, 2005, 05:00 PM   #43
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underground
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Old October 11th, 2005, 07:29 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobDaBuilder
p.s. what the hell is the point of Fox Studios, and what a shame they put this in instead of leaving it as a showground. That for mine, was the biggest disapointment in Sydney. That was a crime to let that happen.
Tell me about it...they should have built the studios out at Homebush and left the showgrounds where they are. All that history erased for a stupid theme park that closed after a year.
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Old October 11th, 2005, 08:26 PM   #45
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underground
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Old October 11th, 2005, 09:41 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randwicked
Tell me about it...they should have built the studios out at Homebush and left the showgrounds where they are. All that history erased for a stupid theme park that closed after a year.
Wow, I really am out of touch with many things in Sydney. When did this close? I presume the studio's themselves are still there?
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Old October 12th, 2005, 03:41 AM   #47
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Studios are still there, however there's no 'rides' anymore and there's nothing past the cinemas. Bent St has been renamed "The Entertainment Quarter" and now there's no mention of Fox Studios in their advertising. I guess they are trying to dissasociate themselves from the overpowering lameness of Fox.
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Old October 12th, 2005, 04:27 PM   #48
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As follows is my usual rehash of old reports/essays/assignments I've done:

The current system, track and rolling stock

The New South Wales rail network is one of the world's most complex. It involves the operation of approximately 2,600 services to carry over 900,000 passengers to and from 306 stations daily. The radial nature of the network itself makes the task of moving this number of people to and from work a real challenge.
Every day CityRail operates a fleet of more than 1,500 carriages over 2,060kms of track controlled by over 2,500 signals. With an operation this size, isolated problems are inevitable but we try to minimise them through regular maintenance and performance management.

Source: CityRail 2005

• Note that the above statistics reflect the entire CityRail Network, including the Interurban Network to Newcastle, Wollongong, Blue Mountains and Goulburn.
• Compared to other urban rail systems around the world, the Sydney CityRail Network is not necessarily as frequent as a metro rail network, nor does it operate only during peak periods as a commuter rail network. It’s most suitable classification is the British term suburban rail which has the similarities of either type of network. Even when compared to German cities, Sydney’s Rail network is a cross between S-Bahns and R-Bahns.

Other facts:

There are 261 morning peak trains and 188 afternoon peak trains. (CityRail, 2004)
Average speed on the network is 42km/h. (Newman and Kenworthy, 1999)

Punctuality



Some critics believe that the obsession with on time running has led to decay in the safety of CityRail and ignorance in CityRail’s other problems. In the wake of the CityRail crisis, Stateline on the 13th February 2004 aired a quote from NSW Premier Bob Carr in 1997 report where he said:
And again, I say that people using public transport have got a right to a system that operates on time.
To see that the system is put in place that will enable people to get to work on time and to get home for dinner on time.
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Old October 12th, 2005, 05:10 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smeghead
As follows is my usual rehash of old reports/essays/assignments I've done:

The current system, track and rolling stock

The New South Wales rail network is one of the world's most complex. It involves the operation of approximately 2,600 services to carry over 900,000 passengers to and from 306 stations daily. The radial nature of the network itself makes the task of moving this number of people to and from work a real challenge.
Every day CityRail operates a fleet of more than 1,500 carriages over 2,060kms of track controlled by over 2,500 signals. With an operation this size, isolated problems are inevitable but we try to minimise them through regular maintenance and performance management.

Source: CityRail 2005

• Note that the above statistics reflect the entire CityRail Network, including the Interurban Network to Newcastle, Wollongong, Blue Mountains and Goulburn.
• Compared to other urban rail systems around the world, the Sydney CityRail Network is not necessarily as frequent as a metro rail network, nor does it operate only during peak periods as a commuter rail network. It’s most suitable classification is the British term suburban rail which has the similarities of either type of network. Even when compared to German cities, Sydney’s Rail network is a cross between S-Bahns and R-Bahns.

Other facts:

There are 261 morning peak trains and 188 afternoon peak trains. (CityRail, 2004)
Average speed on the network is 42km/h. (Newman and Kenworthy, 1999)

Punctuality



Some critics believe that the obsession with on time running has led to decay in the safety of CityRail and ignorance in CityRail’s other problems. In the wake of the CityRail crisis, Stateline on the 13th February 2004 aired a quote from NSW Premier Bob Carr in 1997 report where he said:
And again, I say that people using public transport have got a right to a system that operates on time.
To see that the system is put in place that will enable people to get to work on time and to get home for dinner on time.
Interesting, thanks for the post.

Although, I have always been amazed by the line
Quote:
The New South Wales rail network is one of the world's most complex
As quoted by both the CityRail website, and NSW's website. It is possibly one of the most misleading and inaccurate publicity claims any transport corporation has on the web today.

They base this point on the 2060km of track but neglect to inform the reader that generally rail transport is measured in route km, not track km. Natually, an average rail network is comprised of at least double track for the majority of their lines. This alone would drop the route km length to 1000km~. Of cause, there are also plenty of 4, 6 or even higher lines of track in many sections, not to mention the number of marshalling yards and spurs.

This is why route length is the most common reference, as it is the most accurate way for people to judge how large a network really is. CityRail in NSW has approx 570km of route railway.

This is of cause pretty damn good. But the 2nd point they forget to mention, is that it extends far past the metropolitan area of Sydney, and includes both the metropolitan cities of Newcastle to the North, and Wollongong to the South. (an area covering 22,000km~)

Now, 570km of route length is good, although in such a large expanse, it is hardly as they claim "one of the world's most complex". The extend of the railway in Sydney's metropolitan area (12,000km~+) is about 360km (route).

Just from the top of my mind, this compares to:

(all route length and in metropolitan area's)
London (metropolitan area): 4642km
Moscow: 3458km
Berlin: 3107km (although this includes an area larger than the standard metro, but is the only definition given outside the city proper)
Vienna: 1579km
Frankfurt: 1500km~
Paris: 1401km
Zurich: 660km
Prague: 639km
Rome: 470km
Barcelona 595km

And keep in mind, none of the above lengths include the metro/undergound networks of those cities, only the suburban/commuter rail. Also, and a very big also, many of these metropolitan area's are a different definition to what Australia's are. Sydney's 4.2million people live spread over 12,000km˛, and this is where the 360km of their rail network covers. Barcelona's 4.6million live within 3600km˛ and that is where the 595km of rail length covers, if the Barcelona Provence of 7200km˛ was included (that has 5.2million people) the length would be far larger.

There are also many more I have not included. The Rhein Ruhr metropolitan area has an incredible network that would probably sit somewhere between London and Moscow's, but I don't have the exact length yet. And these are just the European figures I know. Many cities in North America (yes, even NA) have far larger networks, as do many cities in South America and Asia.

You don't have to be a mathmatical magician to look at the London, New York, Tokyo, Osaka, Frankfurt, Berlin, Paris or Barcelona maps to see that they are far more complex and larger than Sydney's.

So, to end my rant. The website's claim that it is one of the most complex rail networks in the world is a bit like Berlin claiming to have one of the greatest highrise skylines in the world - It just doesn't add up.

All that said, and to assure people I am not knocking Sydney's otherwise lovely network, all I am saying, is that it is a very nice network, but nowhere near as large as so many others around the world, and certainly not one of the most complex.
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Old October 12th, 2005, 05:35 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
The Monorail

Its ugly.A toy train more than anything else.

Tear it down

They used the wrong type of monorail.

This *is* a dinky low capacity toytown system - they should have put in an Alweg system, as in Seattle. Now that has fully walk-through trains and can carry far more people.

I suppose its too late now.

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Old October 12th, 2005, 05:44 PM   #51
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Its a shame that this thread does not have any pics, anway, here are a few of my own from a visit in 1991.

Sydney monorail





The next few are video-stills. They show how that because it is elevated monorail is great for by-passing traffic signals and traffic congestsion. OK these were mostly taken on a Sunday morning when traffic is lighter, hopefully but you will know what I mean.









Seattle monorail. Note how much larger it is inside. (visited 1993)





------------

Pics come from the Monorails, Maglevs and 'Cabin' Transports page on my website, where there are also images of some Japanese and German systems - plus others..

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Framemono.htm

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Last edited by spsmiler; October 12th, 2005 at 05:50 PM.
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Old October 12th, 2005, 11:20 PM   #52
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^ I agree with what you say.

However, the problem with the Alweg system is that due to the wider trains, and double track needed for proper bi-directional transport, it would have covered entirely some of those narrow two lane streets in central Sydney. Unfortunately, it would have totally destroyed the streetscape of Sydney.

The toytown version is pretty much useless, but was the best compromise. I'm glad it's there though. It may have as much use as a fish on a bicycle, but it looks pretty cool.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 12:04 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
Interesting, thanks for the post.

Although, I have always been amazed by the line

As quoted by both the CityRail website, and NSW's website. It is possibly one of the most misleading and inaccurate publicity claims any transport corporation has on the web today.

They base this point on the 2060km of track but neglect to inform the reader that generally rail transport is measured in route km, not track km. Natually, an average rail network is comprised of at least double track for the majority of their lines. This alone would drop the route km length to 1000km~. Of cause, there are also plenty of 4, 6 or even higher lines of track in many sections, not to mention the number of marshalling yards and spurs.

This is why route length is the most common reference, as it is the most accurate way for people to judge how large a network really is. CityRail in NSW has approx 570km of route railway.

This is of cause pretty damn good. But the 2nd point they forget to mention, is that it extends far past the metropolitan area of Sydney, and includes both the metropolitan cities of Newcastle to the North, and Wollongong to the South. (an area covering 22,000km~)

Now, 570km of route length is good, although in such a large expanse, it is hardly as they claim "one of the world's most complex". The extend of the railway in Sydney's metropolitan area (12,000km~+) is about 360km (route).

Just from the top of my mind, this compares to:

(all route length and in metropolitan area's)
London (metropolitan area): 4642km
Moscow: 3458km
Berlin: 3107km (although this includes an area larger than the standard metro, but is the only definition given outside the city proper)
Vienna: 1579km
Frankfurt: 1500km~
Paris: 1401km
Zurich: 660km
Prague: 639km
Rome: 470km
Barcelona 595km

And keep in mind, none of the above lengths include the metro/undergound networks of those cities, only the suburban/commuter rail. Also, and a very big also, many of these metropolitan area's are a different definition to what Australia's are. Sydney's 4.2million people live spread over 12,000km˛, and this is where the 360km of their rail network covers. Barcelona's 4.6million live within 3600km˛ and that is where the 595km of rail length covers, if the Barcelona Provence of 7200km˛ was included (that has 5.2million people) the length would be far larger.

There are also many more I have not included. The Rhein Ruhr metropolitan area has an incredible network that would probably sit somewhere between London and Moscow's, but I don't have the exact length yet. And these are just the European figures I know. Many cities in North America (yes, even NA) have far larger networks, as do many cities in South America and Asia.

You don't have to be a mathmatical magician to look at the London, New York, Tokyo, Osaka, Frankfurt, Berlin, Paris or Barcelona maps to see that they are far more complex and larger than Sydney's.

So, to end my rant. The website's claim that it is one of the most complex rail networks in the world is a bit like Berlin claiming to have one of the greatest highrise skylines in the world - It just doesn't add up.

All that said, and to assure people I am not knocking Sydney's otherwise lovely network, all I am saying, is that it is a very nice network, but nowhere near as large as so many others around the world, and certainly not one of the most complex.

The complexity stems from the interlocking of all the lines at key chokepoints and the fact that delays on one line at one end of the system influence trains more than 80km away at another terminus. It has little if anything to do with the statistics you have dredged up, illustrative though they are. The railways are spaghettified, not lengthy or comprehensive.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 02:44 AM   #54
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The Monorail sounds EXACTLY like Detroit's Peoplemover. Same tech as Vancouver SkyTrain but all it doers is go around the office area in one direction. Not really transit at all more just for show. Sounds like Sydney's system is OK but because it does not go under any major arteries for any distance I don't think you would have any long streets of high density population/commercial/office like Toronto or Montreal.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 02:53 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
The Monorail sounds EXACTLY like Detroit's Peoplemover. Same tech as Vancouver SkyTrain but all it doers is go around the office area in one direction. Not really transit at all more just for show. Sounds like Sydney's system is OK but because it does not go under any major arteries for any distance I don't think you would have any long streets of high density population/commercial/office like Toronto or Montreal.
The closest would be George Street (which is only the bit on the rail system between Central and Wynard in the CBD or 'downtown' area). The Western line mirrors to an extent Parramatta Rd, a main artery, but not as you probably imagine and certainly not like Toronto.

Railways have been in place in Sydney for a long time and the urban densities even now probably don't support metros, except for a line along what is called the Global Corridor between the Airport, City and Chatswood/Macquarie Area, and also between the City and Parramatta. In these cases it would mainly be for speed and extra capacity on the existing network rather than a revolutionary new network.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 08:22 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SM247 View Post
The complexity stems from the interlocking of all the lines at key chokepoints and the fact that delays on one line at one end of the system influence trains more than 80km away at another terminus. It has little if anything to do with the statistics you have dredged up, illustrative though they are. The railways are spaghettified, not lengthy or comprehensive.
An interesting point. However, the terminology they used does provoke other interpretations than what you suggested. It may be true that their original intention was to describe the negative aspects of running their network, but it is worded in such a way, that it eludes a complexity of enormous size.

This can be seen by how often it is quoted by those when describing how big the network is.

It is even misquoted in Wikipedia where they write
"Today it is frequently cited as one of the most complex commuter rail systems in the world, and consists of 302 stations and over 2,060 km of track, extending even to the upper Hunter Valley and the Shoalhaven areas."
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Old December 15th, 2006, 04:15 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James View Post
Sydney Doesnt exactly have a subway system, rather a suburban system similar to Toronto's GO system
I've never ridden 'Shittyrail', but it's gotta be better than the GO, of which virtually three quarters of its network is peak-hour service only.
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Old December 7th, 2008, 08:54 AM   #58
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Sydney Bus Spotting















































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Old December 7th, 2008, 10:38 AM   #59
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A lot of old Mercedes buses still traveling around there. We used to have tonnes of them in Auckland, but these days they're pretty much relegated to school buses.
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Old December 7th, 2008, 07:06 PM   #60
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That's a lot of busses pictured at once in many of the photos. Do they have bus-only streets there?
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