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Old December 15th, 2010, 12:07 PM   #101
ajw373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKorean View Post
So what is CityRail? A rapid transit system?

It is both suburban and inter urban heavy rail. If you were to look at the map Manrush has put on one of his posts the suburban section is shown with thicker lines, whereas the Interurban part has thinner lines.

Unlike what others think the Cityrail network is nothing at all like the Paris RER, though I must admit after my first few trips to Paris I thought it a fair comparison. But really Cityrail is better compared to the Paris Transilien services. The key difference is the RER is a group of 5 suburban lines that have been extended into the city using high capacity high frequency trunk sectors (something Cityrail lacks, especially high frequency, the City circle or ESR don't really compare), whereas Transillien is true suburban to interurban rail, exactly like the Cityrail system.
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Old December 15th, 2010, 12:52 PM   #102
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So what is CityRail? A rapid transit system?
Rapid most certainly not, it's a very slow suburban and interurban rail system. The journey times are slower than they were 50 or so years ago. It has a lot of problems. Not helped by transport investment going to roads. The vast majority of journeys in Australia are by road.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 01:33 AM   #103
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Whats happening with this Parramatta to Epping Rail link? is it actually gonna happen or will the state opposition be able to axe it if they are elected.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 08:02 AM   #104
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Whats happening with this Parramatta to Epping Rail link? is it actually gonna happen or will the state opposition be able to axe it if they are elected.
From what I've been reading, Julia and the Federal government will be providing a good part of the funding for the Epping-Parramatta link.

A bit of an old news report:
http://northern-district-times.where...k-to-go-ahead/

The only thing from the Liberals so far has been that there should be more focus on the Northwest and Southwest rail links.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 08:35 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by manrush View Post
From what I've been reading, Julia and the Federal government will be providing a good part of the funding for the Epping-Parramatta link.

A bit of an old news report:
http://northern-district-times.where...k-to-go-ahead/

The only thing from the Liberals so far has been that there should be more focus on the Northwest and Southwest rail links.
True and I know that the northwest needs a link, but Carlingford Station is really bad. Their arent alot of services and the station is dead. So it would be better to work on fixing missing links before starting new ones. Thanx
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Old January 24th, 2011, 12:05 AM   #106
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Recently I’ve confused between the tram-light rail-metro-suburban train terms in Sydney.

www.subways.net says that Sydney’s airport line is a metro, but www.urbanrail.net says it is underground suburban train, just like other underground lines in Sydney. www.lrta.org & www.urbanrail.net says the white vehicle is modern tram, but www.subways.net says it is light rail. Also, many people say that white vehicles are metro. I totally get confused.
Which definition is true? Urban rail fans of Sydney please clear this.

My word is white vehicles are tram, & silver vehicles are suburban train. Am I right?

My opinion is –
1) MLR is a modern tram system. Sydney closed its previous tramway during sixties, and later returned in nineties. It is tram because partly it is street running and the rest is on reserved track, even underground. The system is using a former goods rail alignment. Perhaps it is the only underground tram network of Southern Hemisphere. There also many new routes projected and extensions – towards Dulwich hill, Rand wick racecourse, Ashfield and Circular quay.
2) The CITYRAIL is the suburban train service of Sydney, which connects suburbs of Sydney. It has many underground sections in Sydney (the largest underground rail network in Southern Hemisphere), and uses double decker EMU trains. NOTE: - IT IS NOT METRO, BECAUSE IT USES SAME INFRASTRUCTURE & SAME ROLLING STOCK AS IT RUNS ON CURRENT SURFACE LINES.
3) METRO was planned, but as far I know it is now cancelled, due to high cost. No doubt, it is a great matter of sorrow, because if it would build, it would be the first Oceanian metro.
4) There are two types of underground service, one is suburban train & another is tram.

I’ve some questions (arose after viewing some websites). Please answer one by one –
1) Will there be new tram routes to Ash field, Rand wick racecourse and Circular quay?
2) Has the metro project closed permanently?
3) When the construction of MODERN TRAMWAYS started, were the previous tram tracks (closed in sixties) discovered under the road surface in the time of digging?
4) Is there any remaining of previous tram network in Sydney?
5) Why Sydney closed its tram, and why again returned?

At last a latest news -
The new Sydney Metropolitan Transport Plan announced by the New South Wales government at a special cabinet meeting on 21 January scraps the controversial CBD metro in favour of expanded light rail and an Epping to Rouse Hill 23-km heavy rail line.
AUD 500 M is earmarked for expansion of the current light rail line by 10 km including a new 4.1-km link between Hay market and Circular Quay, and 5.6 km on the disused Rozelle rail corridor west from Lily field to Dulwich Hill.
Premier Kristina Keneally said she wanted the light rail work to start immediately, marking the end of decades of argument between the City Council pressing for light rail expansion and the State government opposing it.

Some links, for plenty photos of Sydney tram. Either click or paste to the address bar of your browser.
http://www.sleeper.apana.org.au/rail...ion/08_August/
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Trams in Sydney
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Old January 24th, 2011, 02:14 AM   #107
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subways calls it a commuter underground railroad:
http://www.subways.net/australia/sydney.htm


I would say the tram is more light rail since it has sections that run on it's own segregated right of way, including two underground stations.

Don't get too caught up in the definitions as there are blurs. Look at the underground commuter railways in Melbourne and Liverpool. They are often referred to as metros. The light rails in Birmingham and in Sheffield are also called metros. Also note that Sydney's commuter lines have large underground sections in peripheral areas.

In many cities in Asia, what they call light rail are referred to in the West as elevated metros. Maybe because passengers can see the light because there are no underground sections?

What many people do is look at the station spacing, but I'm sure there are variants there, too. In Sydeny's case, the line(s) would then be considered metro in the central city, where it is underground with stations spaced at "metro-like distances", and commuter rail in the suburbs.

I don't think you're going to find a strict definition. Classification is probably futile. Just enjoy.
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Old January 24th, 2011, 11:29 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashis Mitra View Post
I’ve some questions (arose after viewing some websites). Please answer one by one –
1) Will there be new tram routes to Ash field, Rand wick racecourse and Circular quay?
2) Has the metro project closed permanently?
3) When the construction of MODERN TRAMWAYS started, were the previous tram tracks (closed in sixties) discovered under the road surface in the time of digging?
4) Is there any remaining of previous tram network in Sydney?
5) Why Sydney closed its tram, and why again returned?
1. A tram route to Circular Quay is currently proposed, to be built along with the Barangaroo development.
2. No, the government says that the metro has been deferred until 2020.
3. I don't know the answer, but most of the light rail runs on a disused goods line.
4. There are still a few sections of track visible.
5. Because trams were seen as "old fashioned" and buses were thought to be more efficient at the time of the closure. The current light rail was built to give better access to the Casino and Inner West, which previously only had buses.
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Old January 25th, 2011, 06:24 PM   #109
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PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE OF SYDNEY TRAM

PAST – Sydney tram started as horse tram, and then steam tram and cable tram. Finally it started as electric tram in 1898. Most of the system was converted by 1910- the privately owned Parramatta to Red bank Wharf (Duck River) steam tram remained until 1943. The tram network in Sydney was once the largest in Australia and the second largest in the Commonwealth (after London) and one of the largest in the world. Sydney system was one of the most extensive public-owned tramway networks in the world. In addition to the main city network, there were a number of isolated lines in more remote suburbs, generally feeding suburban railway stations or Sydney Harbor ferry services, and two private lines operated for many years prior to one being closed and the other taken over by the Government. At the peak of passenger movement in 1944/45, 404.6 million passenger journeys were made, averaging 1.1 million per day. Maximum street mileage occurred in January 1923, with 181 miles (291.3 kilometers) in operation and maximum staff numbers were approximately 8000. Maximum number of passengers’ vehicles in operation on the Sydney Main System reached 1535 in 1935.
For 80 years and more trams carried Sydney people to the races, to the beach, to the zoo, to the Show, the cricket and the football and to work. The trams themselves... were noisy, draughty and cumbrous, neither particularly attractive nor particularly comfortable. Yet they were homely and dependable and, in an age before the streets were being slowly strangled to death by private cars, reasonably punctual.
When the Sydney Harbor Bridge was opened, the North Shore tramlines were brought over the bridge to the city center. However, they terminated in the underground Wynyard railway station, and did not interconnect with the city lines at all.

The Sydney tram system was Australia's largest, at 290 km, in 1933. But because the system consisted of several isolated sections, it was relatively easy to close it down, piece by piece. This process started in 1939 with the Manly system. The last Pitt St. and Castlereigh St. tram ran in 1957 on a Saturday night at 1 am. Within minutes of the tram's run the overhead wires were pulled down, and the next morning (a Sunday) the tracks were paved over, to ensure there would be no return of the trams even if the buses should prove inadequate. This shows pretty clearly that there were forces at work other than just desire for efficiency here.
By 1958 the North Shore system was closed, and in 1961, 100 years after the first tram had run, the last line closed.

In many ways, the Sydney tram system was a victim of its own success. The overcrowded and heaving trams running at a high frequency, in competition with growing private motorcar and bus use, created congestion. Competition from the private car, private bus operators and the perception of traffic congestion led to the gradual closure of lines from the 1940s. Overseas transport experts were called upon to advise the city on its post-war transport issues and recommended closure of the system. Closure was supported by the NRMA, but generally went against public opinion. Nevertheless, closure became Labor government policy and the system was wound down in stages, with withdrawal of the last service, to La Perouse, in 1961.

The replacement buses were loss-making from the start, and within just a few years the City Council was starting to regret the loss of the trams, but it was too late. In 1975, a proposal was floating to re-instate a tram loop from Central Station to Circular Quay along Pitt and Castlereigh Streets. In 1995, this proposal has re-appeared, attached to the Darling Harbor LRV plan.

There were many many routes. It covers service to Chats wood, Victoria Avenue Will by, French Road Willoughby, Lane cove, Broughton Road Artmarton, Gorehil, St. Leods, Northbridge, Suspension bridge, Crow’s Nest, Neutral Bay Jn., Neutral Bay Wharf, Narrabeen, Dee why, Brook vale, Harbord, Manly, The Spit, Bal moral Beach, King Max Street, Spit Jn., Taronga Zoo, Athol wharf, Mosman Wharf, Cremorne Jn., Cremorne Wharf, Ridge Street, Mount Street, Milson’s Point, Watson’s Bay, Vaucluse, Lighthouse, Dover Road, Rosebay, North Bondi, Bondi Beach, Denham Street, Bellevue Hill, Bronte Beach, Clovely, Coo gee Beach, Maroubra Beach, La Perouse, Little bay, Double bay, Grosvernor Street, Bondi Jn., Ocean Street, Stadium, King’s Cross, Sports ground, Cricket ground, Showground, City Road Jn., Railway Square, Clarence Street, Erskine Street, Elizabeth Street, Woolloomooloo, Circular quay, Randwick, Randwick Racecourse, Kensington, Daceyville Jn., Daceyville, West Kensington, Zetland, Rosebery, Alexandria, Erskineville, Cleveland Street, Maroubra Jn., Malabar, Long bay, Matraville, Botany, Ascot, Mort lake, Cabarita, Cabarita Jn., Well bank Street, Bur wood, Enfield, Plymouth Street, Brighton Avenue, Canterbury, Earl wood, Ryde, Gladsville, Drummoyne, Abbotsford, Birch grove, Darling Street Wharf, Five dock, Haberfield, Gladstone Park, Rozelle, Leichhardt, Lilyfield, Annandale, Glebe Point, Pyrmont, Miller’s Point, Fort Macquaire, Ash field, Summer hill, Hurl stone Park, Liechhardt Town hall, Peter sham, Dulwich Hill, City Road Jn., Newtown Bridge, Enmore, Erskineville, Under cliff, Marrickville, Cook’s River & Tempe. Just imagine how gigantic the network was, and served almost all places in Dublin, as far as Mort Lake, Canterbury, North Bondi, La Perouse & Narrabeen.!!!

Around the city it is still possible to see buildings associated with the system such as -
• On Glebe Point Road a small section of the original tram tacks were uncovered during road works in late 2009. The City of Sydney has left these exposed to serve as a historical reminder.
• A section of uncovered tramway track is on O'Dea Avenue in Zetland. A single track is visible through the concrete road surface for a few hundred meters. Occasionally other buried sections of track are exposed when road works are carried out. For example, at the intersection of Victoria Avenue and Pens Hurst Street, Chats wood, extensive tram tracks are visible whenever road resurfacing is carried out.
• There is a small section of tram track going in both directions on Lower Fort Street Road in Millers Point.
• There is a small fragment of tram track exposed in the Moore Park grounds near the Sydney Cricket Ground.
• There is a small fragment of tram track exposed on Old South Head Road, Watson’s Bay at the top of Heart Break Hill.
• Several ornate tram shelters still stand, such as at the corner of Park and Elizabeth Streets, City.
• At North Bondi and Bronte, bus shelters are built into small cuttings that were previously tram stops.
• Ornamental rosettes located where overhead wiring span wires were attached can be seen on many older buildings and rock faces - there are seven on a rock wall near the Sydney Opera House at the site of Fort Macquarie Depot.
• Many street corners where trams turned were 'cut-back' to allow space for trams to turn, and subsequently many buildings on such corners still have rounded fronts.
• The abnormally wide median strip in Anzac Parade south of Kingsford once accommodated tram lines.
• When walking up the steps to The Gap at Watson’s Bay, there is flat ground in between two sets of steps. This continues for a fair way in both directions, and is the old tram right of way.
• The Ultimo Tram Sheds are now preserved by the Powerhouse Museum.
• Tunnel Portals to Wynyard from the Sydney Harbour Bridge still exist and can be seen from the pedestrian walkway.
• Former location of Wynyard tram platforms is now part of the Wynyard Lane Car Park at the station.
• The Sydney government bus network generally reflects the area and routes covered by the tram network. Many suburbs with "Junction" in their name reflect their tramway heritage, such as Bondi Junction, Rand wick Junction, and Maroubra Junction.
• The leftmost southbound traffic lanes on the Sydney Harbour Bridge were originally constructed to carry trams, and are still separated from and clearly distinguishable from the other six road lanes.
• Wynyard Railway Station platforms are still numbered from 3 to 6. Platforms 1 and 2 were tram platforms and the railway platforms were never renumbered when the tram platforms were removed.
• Shoot through like a Bondi tram is a phrase still used in Sydney, meaning to depart in haste.
• The tram museum is in the suburb of Loftus, in Sydney's south.

PRESENT – After long 36 years, tram returned in Sydney, this time as a modern, high speed system. It is the first such system in the decades since the closure of the last of the Sydney tramways. This new network is almost 7 Km as for December 2010. The system has 7 trams.

There is only 1 route. It covers service from Central Station and Lily field. It is clear that this network is even not measurable in the term of density like the previous network.

FUTURE –

There are many extensions planned.

Route 1 will be extended to Dulwich Hill (construction started).
Route 2 will go to Circular Quay.
Route 3 will go to Rand wick Racecourse.
Route 4 will go to Ashfield.

A route along George St and a loop along Pitt and Castlereagh Streets have been put forward as options.

In August 2006, the State Opposition leader, Peter Debnam, promised to build the CBD route and even the possibility of a more expansive network to suburbs such as Bondi, Mascot, Maroubra, Parramatta, and Bur wood if they won the New South Wales State election in March 2007. This did not eventuate as the Morris Iemma government was returned for another term.

In 2009, the Mayor of Rand wick Crnotley-Smith advocated the extension of the Sydney Tram to incorporate the Anzac Parade corridor.

I’m proposing to start a heritage tram service on Sydney; using pre sixties tram type, which once run in Sydney. That tram used trolley pole. Current overhead wire system will allow trolley pole. It will be ideal on Sundays and national holidays, especially attractive for tourists. Such trams are preserved in some museums in Australia.
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Old January 26th, 2011, 03:09 PM   #110
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Good summary Ashis Mitra but you should give your source. Maybe this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Trams

A couple of points. Trams did not cause congestion, motor cars did. Trams actually improved their running times over the years but the strength of the political lobby against them was overwhelming.

And the new line you can hardly describe as high speed! It is very slow for some unknown reason. But one day maybe we'll get a proper tram system back to Sydney's streets.
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Old January 29th, 2011, 12:31 AM   #111
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FOOLISH TRANSPORT AUTHORITY OF SYDNEY

Yes tramfan, I always support tram. But someone thinks negative.

Sydney’s great tram network was closed in 1961 for some blunt reasons –

1) The overcrowded and heaving trams running at a high frequency, in competition with growing private motor car and bus use, created congestion.
Buses are still present in Sydney, even much more than before. Aren’t they competing with tram now? If now tram can attract more people than bus, I think if Sydney Transport Authority should be patient, trams would sure survived, even defeat bus. It says that trams were overcrowded, it means were very popular among the citizens, and also ran on high frequency, means a reliable service. Actually they started following other cities for withdrawing tram during sixties.

2) Competition from the private car, private bus operators and the perception of traffic congestion led to the gradual closure of lines from the 1940s.
Despite the competition with automobile, they were very popular among citizens due to high frequency. Almost half part of the former network was on reserved track, which ensures no clash with cars & buses. At least they can maintain those routes, if the question of congestion arrives. Actually they were lobbying the automobile industry, and the industry started marketing automobiles, like many cities around the world.

3) Closure was supported by the NRMA, but generally went against public opinion.
It is very natural that ordinary people can’t be against with tram. Tram is pollution free, gentle and a status symbol of a civilized city. Even I live in Kolkata. India is poorer than Australia, but my city has still a good tram network. When Sydney closed their tram in 1961, Kolkata’s tram was its top state, both with income & service.

When Melbourne can maintain its full network during sixties and even increasing it still now (it is the largest tram network outside Europe), what was the problem in Sydney? Sydney at least can maintain some long routes like Adelaide.

Sydney’s previous tram survived from 1898 to 1961 and closed for those fake reasons. Tram reopened in 1997. So are we sure that around 2060, Sydney will not again close its tram fore some updated closure reasons?
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Old February 3rd, 2011, 10:50 PM   #112
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COMBINATION OF OLD & NEW SYSTEM

I’m suggesting, like Ashfield, new tramway should also run upto Mort lake, Canterbury, North Bondi, La Perouse & Narrabeen.


Central Station terminus was also a very important terminus of old tram network. Trams then also climbed up the colonnade, but just on opposite direction. Lily field terminus was also used by former tram network.


There is a proposal to run tram again on George Street.


There is a proposal to run tram again to Rand wick Racecourse (route 3). Look the tram terminus was much like rail station layout with overbridge, platform etc!!


There is a proposal to run tram again to Circular Quay (route 2). It was the largest tram terminus of the former network. Just look how many trams are serving from the terminus!!


An R class tram is climbing like a cable tram on Bal main.


The road under the tram bridge was previously served by tram.


Sydney Opera House is situated on the place of this former beautiful Fort Macquarie depot.

Last edited by Ashis Mitra; March 2nd, 2011 at 11:40 PM.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 12:46 PM   #113
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Sydney was once the largest tram networkj in south hemisphere.

Last edited by Ashis Mitra; March 5th, 2011 at 12:40 AM.
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Old February 13th, 2011, 02:51 PM   #114
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There is really bad news that Sydney metro has cancelled. Many sid it would be unprofitable. But I doubt on it. A driverless metro was a very good choice for Sydney.

There are some maps

CBD & West Metro (cancelled?)


NW metro (cancelled?)


I heard that Anzac line has not cancelled. Is it true? Please write details here.

At last I want both tram & metro in Sydney.
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Old February 13th, 2011, 10:54 PM   #115
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This news is about one year old!

It will happen some time in the future perhaps but in a different way.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 10:16 PM   #116
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i like trains!!
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Old February 15th, 2011, 08:15 AM   #117
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The Metro should have gone ahead. Sydney is the 3rd largest city in the developed world not to have one, behind Dallas and Houston.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 12:29 AM   #118
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Quote:
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The Metro should have gone ahead. Sydney is the 3rd largest city in the developed world not to have one, behind Dallas and Houston.
It has to be planned right first before you put it in.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 07:11 PM   #119
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It has to be planned right first before you put it in.

They could build all three of the above cancelled/on-hold lines (NW, Anzac line, west metro) and it still won't be enough to fill the gaping holes in the Sydney rail network
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Old February 16th, 2011, 09:34 PM   #120
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I am very much gladful to see such valuable pictures of trains and bridges of sydney with some extremely old pictures during the times of 50s and 60s and the gradual evolution of sydney rail network. I am looking forward for some more pictures in the future.
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