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Old December 12th, 2010, 04:04 PM   #21
Magnus Brage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eminencia View Post
Mandatory lighting during the daytime causes higher risk of hitting cyclists and bikers. (Many drivers claim not seeing the bike or bicycle on the road) As for bikers there is an easy and effective solution, however it is officialy illegal - using the full beam during the daylight. For cyclists there is no hope, just to take to take higher risk as fact.
Yes, and that's because many countries like Italy and Hungary only require
DRL on rural roads, in the city especially in Italy there are a lot of scooters, bicycles on the city streets and they are less visible if motorists focus on headlights of cars and not on the objects around them.

Also in France less visibility for motorcycles is the main reason for not introducing DRL.

So any austrians out there?: Why did Austria cancel DRL ? I even think I read in another thread that some Balkan country also canceled DRL in some way maybe Slovenia or Croatia ??

Quote:
In Canada DRLs are mandatory on all cars made since 1990. They turn on automatically when the car is started, but not the rear lights. I personally find them very useful most of the time, especially in the winter when contrast is low and, as Chris said, lots of cars here are also in various shades of gray..

So this is a matter of the year model of cars. Do people who drive let's say a '67 Camaro use headlights anyway? or do you see a distinct border between 1990 and 1989 and older cars ?

Any differences between Ontario and Quebec ? I suspect Quebec use DRL more than Ontario. (My experience from watching photos and YT-clips)
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Old December 12th, 2010, 04:06 PM   #22
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So im a strict oponnent of driving with headlights during daytime. Its a simply fooling of people by selling them the feeling of a false safety feeling, i´d even compare this to the smoking bans brought to all of us by mother EU.

IMHO somebody who argues that on a nice and sunny day a car has to turn lights on to be seen better should have his eyes checked by a doctor...

Take a look at Austria where the mandatory use of headlights during daytime has been lifted because there wasn´t any rise of road safety. So did Croatia, but only during summer time.

In Germany you have to turn headlights on if there is a significant reduce of visibility due to rain, snow fog or similar, german courts have defined such a case by a visibility less than 150m, which is absolutely correct. Unfortunately drivers in Germany tend to beleive mother EU, and more and more people are driving with headlights even on good weather conditions, when its completely useless and even develops high risks for motorcycle drivers who have to turn lights on while driving.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 04:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by BND View Post
It's mandatory only outside settlements, so the map is correct about Hungary.

But prohibited in Greece?
Oh, so rural roads are all out of the cities. I didn't understand it the best.

for Greece
for Estonia (or whatever that enclave represents)
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Old December 12th, 2010, 04:31 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Christophorus View Post
Take a look at Austria where the mandatory use of headlights during daytime has been lifted because there wasn´t any rise of road safety. .


Yes, correct. DRL was adopted already 1977 in Sweden and researchers claimed they noticed a distinct difference in road safety in the years after introducing the DRL-law.

BUT, my friends that difference in less accidents after the DRL-introduction had nothing to do with headlights at day-

-the decreasing numbers of accidents depended on rising awareness of traffic safety as increasing use of safetybelts a law which came in 1975 and the modernization of cars which became a lot safer in those years.

The whole DRL-phenomenon reminds me of the HC Andersen fairytale "The Emperor's New Clothes"

If authorities say it's safer with DRL after a while lot's of people tend to believe that without thinking about why.

Let's say soon authorities will only allow yellow cars, because some researcher came to the conclusion that it will save 3 lives a year..or that hazard-lights must blink all the time, maybe a car helmet would save another life.

How much of research do we have to endure before it becomes ridiculos ??

Most people in Sweden believe DRL is safer because they are taught so, but
if it was abolished people would soon be used to see moving objects without lights, they would develop a sense for it which they now lack.

I would not argue about the use of safetybelts, but there is still no proof that headlights at day will increase road safety if weather conditions are good.

Last edited by Magnus Brage; December 12th, 2010 at 04:37 PM.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 04:35 PM   #25
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I admit that during summer when the sun is up the lights are not necessary, but what about a cloudy autumn day? I know that the visibility is good (it's not bad wather, just a usual cloudy day), but the lights make driving more comfortable because you see all the vehicles easier.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 04:54 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fender56 View Post
Do you have a link to more info on this.?
An official press release can be found here: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...ged=0&language
And my first statement wasn't 100% correct. It officially starts on 7 February 2011.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 05:38 PM   #27
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I'm a strong supporter of DRL because of a personal incident. I was 6 or 7, trying to cross the street on a grey day. And there was a grey car with no headlights on, driving way over the speed limit towards me. Being a little kid, I didn't pay enough attention so I stepped on the pavement. It was one of the scariest moments in my life. Luckily nobody was coming in the other direction so the driver managed to steer the car around me. I don't even want to know what would've otherwise happened.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 06:05 PM   #28
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To be honest, I don't care one way or the other. It's not mandatory to use daytime running lights in Canada, but all newer vehicles dating back to the early 90s have headlights (high beam) that come on "At a reduced level of output."
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Old December 12th, 2010, 06:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koloite View Post
An official press release can be found here: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...ged=0&language
And my first statement wasn't 100% correct. It officially starts on 7 February 2011.
Thx

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Old December 12th, 2010, 06:59 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus Brage View Post
.
I would not argue about the use of safetybelts, but there is still no proof that headlights at day will increase road safety if weather conditions are good.
Hmm, who decides when the weather is good or not? Driver, of course. So, for that reason when the weather breaks(in some countries several times a day) some use headlights, some don't. Obviously making some cars less visible than the others.

Some time ago I was checking how many cars on a British motorway use lights during heavy rainfalls. Experiment had been taken just ten-fifteen minutes after sunny part of the day. I counted more than 1000 cars. Every 2 of 10 passed with no lights at all, some had fog-lights together with headlights, some just fog-lights+parking lamps, some only parking lamps. Only 6 of 10 cars had properly switched on headlights. It was a drivers' decision. Not effective indeed and very different for certain groups of drivers. Is such a use of lights safe? Guess what was happening after raining?

So, in my opinion there are 2 ways to solve the lighting problem, one better and more reasonable-lights on 24 hrs, the other-forbidding use of lights during day at all(obviously not possible)

Quote:
but there is still no proof that(..)
I know grey day, but still day. Could it be a proof:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
I'm a strong supporter of DRL because of a personal incident. I was 6 or 7, trying to cross the street on a grey day. And there was a grey car with no headlights on, driving way over the speed limit towards me. Being a little kid, I didn't pay enough attention so I stepped on the pavement. It was one of the scariest moments in my life. Luckily nobody was coming in the other direction so the driver managed to steer the car around me. I don't even want to know what would've otherwise happened.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 12:02 AM   #31
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It probably also depends on the climate. In Canada we often experience low contrast weather conditions, both in the summer and in the winter. I know for a fact that it is much easier to see cars (especially white and gray cars) with DRLs, at least from personal experience.

One thing is important though - there is a different between countries where turning headlights on during the day is mandatory/recommended, and countries where specialized DRLs are used, which are not as bright as regular headlights. I could see how turning on headlights at all times can cause glare, which is why I only turn my headlights on manually when weather conditions are bad (e.g. heavy rain, fog, etc.). The DRLs with which all modern cars in Canada have to be equipped are not as bright (though, they are brighter than the ones in Scandinavia, and there was some debate about that a long time ago). Those LED ones are probably even better, but they aren't yet very common here. As Fargo Wolf said, they mostly utilize the high beams at a reduced intensity.

When I visited New York recently, I found visibility to be worse at times because of the lack of DRLs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus Brage View Post
So this is a matter of the year model of cars. Do people who drive let's say a '67 Camaro use headlights anyway? or do you see a distinct border between 1990 and 1989 and older cars ?

Any differences between Ontario and Quebec ? I suspect Quebec use DRL more than Ontario. (My experience from watching photos and YT-clips)
To be honest, I don't know, but my guess is that people with those cars do not manually turn the headlights on. However, there are very few cars on our roads (at least in the Toronto area) that were made before 1990, so in general it is quite safe to say that virtually all cars you see on our roads have DRLs.

I also have no clue about Quebec, but the law applies to Canada as a whole, so unless there are many more cars there that were made before 1990, I'd say it's about the same as in Ontario.

Another thing worth mentioning is that any car imported from the US into Canada, by law, has to have DRLs installed if they aren't already installed, before the car can be registered. More and more cars in the US also come with DRLs (partially because it saves the manufacturers money by not forcing them to have separate US and Canadian versions of cars), but unlike in Canada they are not mandatory there.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 04:02 AM   #32
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If someone can't see something the size of a bloody car or truck in the middle of the day, then they are any one of:

1. blind
2. Dead
3. Shouldn't be driving
4. A complete retard




These ever-increasing protectionist laws are getting more and more stupid by the day. And I thought we had ridiculous laws here in Australia
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Old December 13th, 2010, 01:20 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear Winter View Post
If someone can't see something the size of a bloody car or truck in the middle of the day, then they are any one of:

1. blind
2. Dead
3. Shouldn't be driving
4. A complete retard




These ever-increasing protectionist laws are getting more and more stupid by the day. And I thought we had ridiculous laws here in Australia
Which one would you see earlier - a car with or without lights?
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Old December 13th, 2010, 01:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear Winter View Post
If someone can't see something the size of a bloody car or truck in the middle of the day, then they are any one of:

1. blind
2. Dead
3. Shouldn't be driving
4. A complete retard
Yep, and I don't want such a person to crash into me, hence lights on.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 01:41 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus Brage View Post

In Italy where it's compulsory on rural road, still use is definately not 100% as in Sweden. Italians tend to disobey trafficrules.
I beg to differ. If there is a traffic rule widely accepted in Italy, it's the one about headlights. It's definitely uncommon to spot a car with lights off, even in towns where it's not compulsory.
(And please, stop with these stupid stereotypes).

I am a fan of always-on-headlights, and now that I'm living in Germany the fact that they're more rarely used than in Italy bothers me. I don't know the rules here, but I'd say almost 70% of cars use them, while in Italy it's more like 95%.

EDIT: But I agree with you about the new LED headlights, they're way better in power efficiency and they're easier to spot.

Last edited by g.spinoza; December 13th, 2010 at 02:16 PM.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 02:15 PM   #36
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this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard!!!!
lights should be mandatory at all times!

i can't even count the *******s driving around in their gray/white cars in the grayest weather, snow, rain etc. (that's like half the year)

camouflage is not for the roads!!!!

jeeez...
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Old December 13th, 2010, 03:46 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear Winter View Post
If someone can't see something the size of a bloody car or truck in the middle of the day, then they are any one of:

1. blind
2. Dead
3. Shouldn't be driving
4. A complete retard




These ever-increasing protectionist laws are getting more and more stupid by the day. And I thought we had ridiculous laws here in Australia
You are my friend.

Exactly what I'm thinking, ok a motorbike without lights could be difficult to discover even in the day, but the shear size of a car makes it impossible to ignore.

What about scooters, mopeds and motorbikes? Is there a country where you don't need headlights in the day riding a motorbike?

Btw in Australia it's compulsary to wear helmet for bicyclists, in Sweden it's only law for children under the age of 15.

Also, here you can legally drive while talking in a cellphone

Very strange that there is still some freedom in the Nanny-state of Sweden.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 05:03 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Vimes View Post
Which one would you see earlier - a car with or without lights?

Anyone with half decent eyesight can see a car in broad daylight from several hundred metres away..... more than enough time to react to a potential accident. Anyone who can't recognise a car from 200 metres is a braindead vegetable and most likely a decaying zombie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yep, and I don't want such a person to crash into me, hence lights on.
This whole thing is a silly argument, back before our nanny states started running our lives, people survived driving much crappier cars, with much crappier roads, and heaven forbid, without big brother telling them to drive with lights on in bright sunshine and lived!!!!!

Luckily in Australia, this is not law yet, but going by the track record of our socialist nanny-state government, I wouldn't at al lbe surprised to see it. Infact there has already been mention of this in the newspapers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus Brage View Post
You are my friend.

Exactly what I'm thinking, ok a motorbike without lights could be difficult to discover even in the day, but the shear size of a car makes it impossible to ignore.

What about scooters, mopeds and motorbikes? Is there a country where you don't need headlights in the day riding a motorbike?

Btw in Australia it's compulsary to wear helmet for bicyclists, in Sweden it's only law for children under the age of 15.

Also, here you can legally drive while talking in a cellphone

Very strange that there is still some freedom in the Nanny-state of Sweden.
thankyou! In regards to motorbikes, I think the headlights automatically turn on whenever the engine is running.

Last edited by Nuclear Winter; December 13th, 2010 at 05:10 PM.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 05:04 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Nuclear Winter View Post
Anyone with half decent eyesight can see a car in broad daylight from several hundred metres away..... more than enough time to react to a potential accident.
This is simply not true... otherwise there would not be any accidents.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
This is simply not true... otherwise there would not be any accidents.
We're talking about normal, sober motorists, not drunken, speeding, drugged up idiots.

It is true, a human has good enough eyesight to identify a vehicle, what it's doing, which direction it's travelling and gauge its tragectory etc and react accordingly within a safe timeframe. Most accidents areeither caused by the driver himself losing control of the vehicle for whatever reason, drunk/speeding/drugged idiots, an obstacle on the road or malfunction of the vehicle, not because someone drove head-on into someone else because they couldn't see him in the middle of a bright sunny day.
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