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View Poll Results: Is there Islamic Architecture
Yes 137 74.05%
No 36 19.46%
I don't know! 12 6.49%
Voters: 185. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 26th, 2010, 12:13 AM   #181
Adrian12345Lugo
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Is Persian Architectue 100% original?
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Old December 26th, 2010, 02:02 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
By the way, wasn't this church made by the Safavids who wanted to encourage a minority (Armenian christians?) to move into Esfahan?

And Safavids were the masters of Iranian Islamic architecture. They just regurgitated the same architecture for the church and made some icons / pictures in it so it looks more like a church.

Totally unconvinced. This church is merely following norms established through Islamization of Iranian architecture so that it can fit into the cultural mileu. Not the other way around. Sorry.

By the way why not post pics of Chehel Sotoon (or was it some other palace?) that also shows whole scenes of Safavid court life? That also has pictures of people.

I think you are really confused. Persian architecture got heavily islamized since more than 90% of the Persians converted to Islam. You can notice that Islamization by looking at the florid and repetitive geometric designs. However the same / similar architecture is used for a variety of purposes - be it secular in palaces where more pictures are allowed, or in mosques where it is strictly religious. However, the influence of Islam is indelible.

What do you mean Persian architecture got heavily Islamized? Persian architecture from the Islamic times are a continuation of pre-Islamic Persian architecture. How could Persian architecture have been Islamized when the people who brought Islam to Iran didn't even have their own architecture, etc? It was more the other way round, that because of the Arab invasion of Iran, it meant that the 'Islamic architecture' was heavily influenced by Persian designs, and that is well known that the Arabs borrowed many aspects of the Sassanid Persian culture, not just their architecture, but also their style of administration, traditions and lifestyles. Iran was the more advanced culture at the time Islam was spreading everywhere, so it is only natural that Iran would have been the most culturally influential.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 06:48 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Turknology View Post
Just because a certain form of architecture exists in a country that happens to be populated by Muslims, why suddenly do some people want to call it Islamic architecture.

There is Byzantine architecture (which is the basis of design for most major Ottoman mosques), Gothic architecture, Baroque Architecture, classical/neo-classical, etc, etc Architecture in Europe and many churches built in one style or the other but no one lumps them all together and calls them Christian architecture.

So why the need to say Islamic architecture instead of Persian, Seljuck, Ottoman, Mamluk, etc?

The Ortaköy Mosque built in the neo-baroque style:



so just because this is a mosque can it no longer be classified as neo-baroque but must be classified as "Islamic architecture"?

So, no, there is no such thing as Islamic architecture.
Who said that?

The term "Islamic Architecture" is generally used in architectural history as a loose umbrella term, incorporating the styles you mentioned.

Anyway, I don't think nomenclature is Cyrus's concern at all. He has other all too familiar concerns that he wants to b*tch about.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 06:58 AM   #184
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Some things get named and that name sticks, justifiably or not. That's just the nature of the game.

When the Arabs built and designed the buildings of Norman Sicily or the Mudejar buildings in Christian Spain, nobody called it Arab or Islamic architecture, and nobody is saying that they should.

And for those of you saying that Arabs didn't have an architecture before Islam....GO READ A BOOK ALREADY!
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Old December 26th, 2010, 09:45 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koobideh View Post
What do you mean Persian architecture got heavily Islamized? Persian architecture from the Islamic times are a continuation of pre-Islamic Persian architecture. How could Persian architecture have been Islamized when the people who brought Islam to Iran didn't even have their own architecture, etc? It was more the other way round, that because of the Arab invasion of Iran, it meant that the 'Islamic architecture' was heavily influenced by Persian designs, and that is well known that the Arabs borrowed many aspects of the Sassanid Persian culture, not just their architecture, but also their style of administration, traditions and lifestyles. Iran was the more advanced culture at the time Islam was spreading everywhere, so it is only natural that Iran would have been the most culturally influential.
Post # 95 gives some elements that show an influence of Islam on architecture. Islam was the main philosophy which led to the perpetuation and promotion of these elements (as opposed to any other ones) and resulted in their development reaching a zenith. I am sure Iranian architecture post-Islam was created by Iranians themselves and not Arabs. So why this issue with Arabs having or not having an architecture earlier? (even though there were quite a lot of building traditions in existence on the Arabian peninsula before) However, whatever the Iranians created post Islam was heavily influenced by Islamic philosophy. So for example, whereas Pasargad's gardens had been wiped off the planet a LONG time ago, the Islamic form of the garden, the Chahar Bagh was developed and revived - drawing heavily from the imagery of four streams of paradise.

And the main trend this thread is taking that only Persian architecture was the original one in the world, it was not. Ctesiphon's architecture and the Sassanid's themselves borrowed heavily from main Middle Eastern architectural themes of Mesopotamia. Only the Iwan can be attributed to them as a distinct form. The iconic architecture of the Soltaniyeh was in fact comissioned by a Turkic / Mongolian person, and Safavids themselves were Turkic. Conclusion again - no architecture developed in isolation. Only the main streams of its influence can be used to categorize it properly.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 12:01 PM   #186
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And Christian philosophy also influenced architecture (for example domes representing heaven etc) but there is no term called Christian architecture.

I am aware that some want to just debase Islamic civilisations, yet that doesn't mean that everything related to an islamically influenced civilisation most have the adjective "Islamic" attached to it.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 01:11 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
Post # 95 gives some elements that show an influence of Islam on architecture. Islam was the main philosophy which led to the perpetuation and promotion of these elements (as opposed to any other ones) and resulted in their development reaching a zenith. I am sure Iranian architecture post-Islam was created by Iranians themselves and not Arabs. So why this issue with Arabs having or not having an architecture earlier? (even though there were quite a lot of building traditions in existence on the Arabian peninsula before) However, whatever the Iranians created post Islam was heavily influenced by Islamic philosophy. So for example, whereas Pasargad's gardens had been wiped off the planet a LONG time ago, the Islamic form of the garden, the Chahar Bagh was developed and revived - drawing heavily from the imagery of four streams of paradise.

And the main trend this thread is taking that only Persian architecture was the original one in the world, it was not. Ctesiphon's architecture and the Sassanid's themselves borrowed heavily from main Middle Eastern architectural themes of Mesopotamia. Only the Iwan can be attributed to them as a distinct form. The iconic architecture of the Soltaniyeh was in fact comissioned by a Turkic / Mongolian person, and Safavids themselves were Turkic. Conclusion again - no architecture developed in isolation. Only the main streams of its influence can be used to categorize it properly.
I guess this can't be repeated enough, huh?

Last edited by KWT; December 26th, 2010 at 01:21 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 01:21 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turknology View Post
And Christian philosophy also influenced architecture (for example domes representing heaven etc) but there is no term called Christian architecture.

I am aware that some want to just debase Islamic civilisations, yet that doesn't mean that everything related to an islamically influenced civilisation most have the adjective "Islamic" attached to it.
Fine, so what do you suggest as an alternative term? Because there is a link of architectural and decorative themes that connects buildings from central Asia to southern Europe (which only exist because of the rise of the original Islamic Caliphates), and to break that link and say there is no common thread, that these styles are coincidental and completely unrelated is truly unjust in my opinion.

Last edited by KWT; December 26th, 2010 at 01:30 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 01:25 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
Its because Constantinople was CONQUERED by the Muslims. Just like the Grand mosque of Cordoba is now a cathedral! The sooner you accept this, the better it will be for your xenophobia and insecurity.

By the way, more great Islamic Moorish architecture:





Cyrus, please reply. Also, when you say "when you remove your ugly minarets", who are you referring to specifically?! LOL
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Old December 26th, 2010, 05:12 PM   #190
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As you read about Cathedral–Mosque of Córdoba: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedr...f_C%C3%B3rdoba It was:

1. Pagan Temple
2. Visigothic Christian church
3. Moorish Mosque
4. Roman Catholic church

Anyway you certainly know about the Moorish history.

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Old December 26th, 2010, 05:46 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian12345Lugo View Post
Is Persian Architectue 100% original?
Persian architecture has a long history, no one can deny the influences of other architectural styles, especially ancient Elamite, Assyrian, Urartian, ... on it, this architecture was developed through its long history, some things were invented and many other things were adopted from others, this is a long process, not a one time event like the appearance of Islam.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 07:07 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
As you read about Cathedral–Mosque of Córdoba: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedr...f_C%C3%B3rdoba It was:

1. Pagan Temple
2. Visigothic Christian church
3. Moorish Mosque
4. Roman Catholic church

Anyway you certainly know about the Moorish history.

First of all, this is a quote from your own link: "the Umayyad Moors at first converted the building into a mosque, and then built a new mosque on the site."

Second of all, are you seriously insinuating, by posting that map, that Moorish architecture was actually "invented" by Persians?!?!
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Old December 26th, 2010, 07:07 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Turknology View Post
And Christian philosophy also influenced architecture (for example domes representing heaven etc) but there is no term called Christian architecture.
Even though the dome may appear very prominently in post-renaissance and eastern christian architecture, it had already been used profusely by Romans, zoroastrians (in their fire temples - ahem, ahem), muslims (mosques all the way from ibn tulun to central asian ones), and maybe other traditions as well. And it can be seen in several different non-connected architectural streams at the same period of time in history - for example, the Soltaniyeh dome dates from early 1300's whereas the Florence cathedral's dome started in 1419. Therefore, it would be totally wrong to attribute it to a specific tradition.

Gothic verticality, even though directly inspired from religion, was not adopted uniformly across most christian lands (unlike Islamic architectural themes)... so again you cannot call it christian architecture. Maybe calling it western christian architecture however, would not be in error. Likewise, multiple domes were used only significantly in the architecture of the eastern christian tradition - more specifically associated with the Byzantine empire. It doesnt have thematic elements that apply more or less uniformly to all christian lands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
As you read about Cathedral–Mosque of Córdoba: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedr...f_C%C3%B3rdoba It was:

1. Pagan Temple
2. Visigothic Christian church
3. Moorish Mosque
4. Roman Catholic church
Wikipedia also says:
"The site was primarily a pagan temple, then a Visigothic Christian church, before the Umayyad Moors at first converted the building into a mosque, and then built a new mosque on the site."

meaning - all torn down and built afresh. If it still had the earlier christian church layout, it would have probably looked like a latin cross. However its layout is that of a hypostyle hall with an adjoining courtyard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
Anyway you certainly know about the Moorish history.

If you read the wikipedia entry on this empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rustamid ), sounds like these Rustamids were Muslim... also seems like only the ruling family was Persian (not a diaspora colony).

By the way, you are starting to sound delusional now. Better go take some pills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
Persian architecture has a long history, no one can deny the influences of other architectural styles, especially ancient Elamite, Assyrian, Urartian, ... on it, this architecture was developed through its long history, some things were invented and many other things were adopted from others, this is a long process, not a one time event like the appearance of Islam.
So basically according to you, Islam appeared one fine day, the next fine day all the glorious buildings you find in Islamic empires were constructed, then then the next day... poof! it was gone. Sounds like it made a pretty remarkable achivement in that short a time period! You are welcome to believe that if you want because the achievements of the earlier Islamic empires were really quite remarkable.

Oh and we totally didnt adopt anything from others!! All of it was 100% Islamic development! (maybe reverse psychology will help now).

Last edited by swerveut; December 26th, 2010 at 07:43 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 07:46 PM   #194
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As a neutral observer, I went through the whole thread.
I had no clear answer to that question before.

Is there something like islamic architecture?

My personal judgement now: No, there is no such thing as Islamic architecture. I say this because those who have spoken against this statement here have the better arguments!


I understand that this is a sensitive and emotional matter, but those against have had the lower hand in this thread and had to endure a lot of very low insults, and that only because they are lower in number. Thats just unfortunate.


Thanks to Cyrus, Turknology, end2012 etc. Dont think that your efforts have gone unnoticed. Keep it up!
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Old December 26th, 2010, 08:22 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by guy4versa4 View Post
u need to admit the existed islamic architecture..if tajmahal is moghul,samarra mosque tower is persian..what type of architecture is this>
http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/x...eafd7116_b.jpg
http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/x...-Residence.jpg
http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/x...ouse_tower.jpg
Post-modern Arabic architecture (doesn't matter where they're located)
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Old December 26th, 2010, 08:29 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Koobideh View Post
What is wrong with the Safavids or Shia Islam? The Safavids were an advanced society.
Please see what I meant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid...nism_to_Shiism
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Old December 26th, 2010, 08:37 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maniei View Post
As a neutral observer, I went through the whole thread.
I had no clear answer to that question before.

Is there something like islamic architecture?

My personal judgement now: No, there is no such thing as Islamic architecture. I say this because those who have spoken against this statement here have the better arguments!


I understand that this is a sensitive and emotional matter, but those against have had the lower hand in this thread and had to endure a lot of very low insults, and that only because they are lower in number. Thats just unfortunate.


Thanks to Cyrus, Turknology, end2012 etc. Dont think that your efforts have gone unnoticed. Keep it up!
You are warmly welcome!
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Old December 26th, 2010, 09:13 PM   #198
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Sometimes Muslims hate their own architecture, like this one:



That is the tomb of a Persian soldier who killed Umar, the second Caliph.


Hagia Sophia (You can see the names of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, and Umar)
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Old December 26th, 2010, 10:29 PM   #199
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I don't get it. Who hates the architecture of that tomb?
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Old December 26th, 2010, 10:32 PM   #200
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i love it...i think the only person hates that architecture is the person who made this tread
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