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View Poll Results: Is there Islamic Architecture
Yes 137 74.05%
No 36 19.46%
I don't know! 12 6.49%
Voters: 185. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 26th, 2010, 10:33 PM   #201
banglong1
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i like..the mosaic pattern is very nice..the detail.and islamic calligraphic..
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Old December 26th, 2010, 11:24 PM   #202
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One theme





Spain

image hosted on flickr


Uzbekistan



India

image hosted on flickr


Egypt

image hosted on flickr


Iran



Lebanon

[IMG]http://i55.************/106km88.jpg[/IMG]

Turkey



Iraq



and so on

Last edited by KWT; December 26th, 2010 at 11:38 PM.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 04:22 PM   #203
swerveut
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Excellent work KWT!

Let me expand with the second element - use of Calligraphy for architectural ornamentation. This is for the ignorants:

India:
image hosted on flickr



Iran:


image hosted on flickr



Central Asia: (Samarkand)
image hosted on flickr




Turkey:





Egypt: (hint - look at the top of minaret first tier)



Please find above photo at URL: http://www.world-spirit-art.com/apps...otoid=11087870



Morocco:





Spain:
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


more later.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 05:21 PM   #204
Cyrus
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KWT, guy4versa4 & banglong1, do you really love the tomb of Firuzan?!! Maye you hate Muslims?! Because a large number of them have asked for destruction of this anti-Islamic building and it will be destroyed soon, would you please help us to stop this destruction? As you read here: http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2007/June2007/28-06.htm Mohammad Salim Al'awa, the Secretary-General of the International Union for Muslim Scholars (IUMS), says "the request for its destruction was delivered to Iran by a group of Arab representatives a few months ago, after the Doha assembly at the beginning of the year. At the assembly a large number of Sunni scholars asked Iran for the total destruction of the tomb".
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Old December 27th, 2010, 05:45 PM   #205
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A Pre-Islamic World Heritage Site in Iran: http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1262





Sorry this church is older than those mosques.

Please stop your Islamic propaganda!
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Old December 27th, 2010, 05:49 PM   #206
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Some people just don't get it. Many chruches have Frescos and Stained glass windows, many churches have steeples or bell towers, most churches have bells, etc, yet these are not indicators of Christian architecture.

And what some here are calling Islamic architecture changes according to period. For example Seljuk architecture and Ottoman architecture are vastly different from one another, yet some would just call them "Islamic" architecture. Maybe using a generic term such as Islamic architecture to generaly define mosques and other muslim religious structures could be acceptable, but that is just to specify function, otherwise "Islamic" is not an architectural style, it is just a functional definition.

Why the need to signify the importance of religion in things like art, architecture, science, etc beats me.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 06:19 PM   #207
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@ Turknology: If you look at the previous posts, you will find that indeed the term Islamic architecture is used pretty loosely as a loose grouping. It is almost always followed by other qualifiers eg. Islamic Ottoman architecture, Islamic Mameluk architecture, Indo-Islamic architecture, Muslim Spanish/Iberian architecture etc. Its not just a functional grouping however because this kind of architecture is also used several times for tombs, palaces etc.

However, the main point is that the grouping exists because there are certain connecting points between all these architectural styles no matter how different they are from each other.

@ Cyrus for post # 204: I too support the fact that the architecture of the building is very good. However I understand why people want it to be demolished and the issue is 100% political and has to do with the fact that the building was made in order to antagonize Shi'as against the Sunnis by the Safavid (?) regime of Iran. It has nothing to do with architecture. A well known proverb in my region says: "A half-doctor can be life-threatening...". I would advise you to pick up a good book on the history of Architecture. I would personally recommend the book by Spiro Kostof. Will help you quite a lot.

Cheers.

Last edited by swerveut; December 27th, 2010 at 06:38 PM.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 06:24 PM   #208
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The link you quote also says:

"The monasteries have survived some 2,000 years of destruction, both of human origin and as a result of natural disasters. They have been rebuilt several times in a spirit in keeping with Armenian cultural traditions. "

Besides, nothing in those pictures makes them seem like they really date from the 6th century. They look entirely rebuilt.

Also, please quote the exact name of the building whose pictures you have quoted. The site you give is far too general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
A Pre-Islamic World Heritage Site in Iran: http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1262





Sorry this church is older than those mosques.

Please stop your Islamic propaganda!

Last edited by swerveut; December 27th, 2010 at 06:33 PM.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 07:23 PM   #209
Jünyus Brütüs
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Can someone clarify if the following architecture styles are Islamic or not? Since they both built by Islamic empire.










Or is this muslim village built in ıslamic style?



The answer is obvious actually. There is no Islamic architecture as well as there is no Christian or Jewish architecture.

The truth is; most common architecture styles are the ones that born in Europe. That's because expansionism of European Empires, all those architecture styles influenced the today's world. And all those European architecture styles borrowed somethings from neighbouring regions too.

Middle Eastern architecture can be called Islamic that is because the Arabic and Persian style buildings widely accepted in Islamic nations through ages. But that does not mean the architecture itself is Islamic neither Neo-Baroque is Christian nor Neo-Classic is infidel.

It's the silliest thing that naming architecture styles after religions.
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Last edited by Jünyus Brütüs; December 27th, 2010 at 07:29 PM.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 08:06 PM   #210
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Frankly, I am getting a bit tired of all these ill-informed and erroneous arguments.

1. Please read carefully the previous posts so as not to waste people's time.

2. I attach a reasonably accessible bibliography for the well-informed non-professional. Please educate yourselves on the VAST literature of Sacred (i.e., Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, etc.) architecture and the reasons on what distinguishes Religious Architecture from other (e.g., regional, stylistic) forms. Let's call this an IDIOT'S GUIDE TO THE STUDY OF RELIGIOUS ARCHITECTURE FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

(BTW - there is nothing more exasperating than an ill-educated and ill-informed poster dabbling on architecture...)

- Early Christian and Byzantine Architecture (The Yale University Press Pelican History of Art)



- Islamic Art and Architecture (The Yale University Press Pelican History of Art)



- Creswell, K. A. C. A Short Account of Early Muslim Architecture. Rev. and suppl. by James W. Allen. Aldershot, 1989.



- Vernoit, Stephen. Occidentalism: Islamic Art in the 19th Century. New York, 1997. (The Nasser D. Khalili Collection of Islamic Art, 23.)




- Ali, Wijdan. Modern Islamic Art: Development and Continuity. Gainesville, 1997



- The Hermeneutics of Sacred Architecture: Experience, Interpretation, Comparison, Volume 2: Hermeneutical Calisthenics: A Morphology of Ritual-Architectural Priorities (v. 2)



- M. Anesaki, Buddhist Art in Its Relation to Buddhist Ideals





Quote:
Originally Posted by Jünyus Brütüs View Post

...

The answer is obvious actually. There is no Islamic architecture as well as there is no Christian or Jewish architecture.

The truth is; most common architecture styles are the ones that born in Europe. That's because expansionism of European Empires, all those architecture styles influenced the today's world. And all those European architecture styles borrowed somethings from neighbouring regions too.

Middle Eastern architecture can be called Islamic that is because the Arabic and Persian style buildings widely accepted in Islamic nations through ages. But that does not mean the architecture itself is Islamic neither Neo-Baroque is Christian nor Neo-Classic is infidel.

It's the silliest thing that naming architecture styles after religions.

Last edited by tpe; December 27th, 2010 at 08:11 PM.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 08:42 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
KWT, guy4versa4 & banglong1, do you really love the tomb of Firuzan?!! Maye you hate Muslims?! Because a large number of them have asked for destruction of this anti-Islamic building and it will be destroyed soon, would you please help us to stop this destruction? As you read here: http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2007/June2007/28-06.htm Mohammad Salim Al'awa, the Secretary-General of the International Union for Muslim Scholars (IUMS), says "the request for its destruction was delivered to Iran by a group of Arab representatives a few months ago, after the Doha assembly at the beginning of the year. At the assembly a large number of Sunni scholars asked Iran for the total destruction of the tomb".
I would love to help. But, Cyrus, those people don't hate the architecture of the tomb, they have a problem with the person buried in it. The issue here is not aesthetics but religious differences and extremism. I'm not a religious person so these things don't matter to me personally.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 08:51 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turknology View Post
Some people just don't get it. Many chruches have Frescos and Stained glass windows, many churches have steeples or bell towers, most churches have bells, etc, yet these are not indicators of Christian architecture.

And what some here are calling Islamic architecture changes according to period. For example Seljuk architecture and Ottoman architecture are vastly different from one another, yet some would just call them "Islamic" architecture. Maybe using a generic term such as Islamic architecture to generaly define mosques and other muslim religious structures could be acceptable, but that is just to specify function, otherwise "Islamic" is not an architectural style, it is just a functional definition.

Why the need to signify the importance of religion in things like art, architecture, science, etc beats me.
I've said this before countless times, I understand that the word Islamic architecture is problematic for many reasons, but i still think that all of these styles have commonalities that are undeniable and some sort of loose umbrella term is necessary for reference and historical documentation.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 09:00 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
@ Turknology: If you look at the previous posts, you will find that indeed the term Islamic architecture is used pretty loosely as a loose grouping. It is almost always followed by other qualifiers eg. Islamic Ottoman architecture, Islamic Mameluk architecture, Indo-Islamic architecture, Muslim Spanish/Iberian architecture etc. Its not just a functional grouping however because this kind of architecture is also used several times for tombs, palaces etc.

However, the main point is that the grouping exists because there are certain connecting points between all these architectural styles no matter how different they are from each other.
Yet if not functional what else? Here the functional emphasis being on usage for religious related purposes.

The problem here is that architecture is not a direct by-product of religion that it should be classified as a part of that religion, as a term like Islamic architecture implies, unless used to imply its function.

Even using it in a functional sense presents various problems.

For example, the blue mosque is built in the Byzantine style, so it should be seen as neo-Byzantine (or neo-Byzantine Ottoman at most) due to being influenced by Byzantine architecture. Just like neoclassical architecture being influenced by classical architecture and thus being named neoclassical, despite not being built by for example the Romans.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 09:05 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWT View Post
I've said this before countless times, I understand that the word Islamic architecture is problematic for many reasons, but i still think that all of these styles have commonalities that are undeniable and some sort of loose umbrella term is necessary for reference and historical documentation.
Yes, but that umbrella can become problematic as it tends to group architectural styles that are in essence common to each other as completely different styles. that's why for example I gave the example of a neo-Baroque mosque in my initial post. Is it neo Baroque, or is it Islamic. IMHO it should be classified as Neo Baroque.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 09:06 PM   #215
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@tpe
Could you please inform me about what is written in the book: Islamic art and architecture 650-1250?

Is that includes the answers of following questions?

1. Which architecture styles were born between those dates?
2. How the religion did influence domestic architecture?
3. Which parts of Quran did effect the styles of ordinary buildings?(I'm simply not talking about temples!)
4. What has been changed in Middle and Near East after Islam widely accepted?( by architectural perspective)
5. How does the Islamic influence effect today's buildings? If we accept the so-called "Islamic style" was born with Islam so all the pre-Islamic style architecture just disappeared?
6. Did people suddenly discover a new trend of architecture or was it just upgraded/blended version of the local styles?

Also the cover of the book highlights some questions in my mind such as;

Is a regional/local art(mostly ancient) must include some verses from Quran to be called as Islamic art or simply same patterns can be called Islamic if it's not include any Quranic verses?

I also want to learn detailed info(more or less same questions) about the book that analyze Early Christian and Byzantine architecture.

Thanks.


All I say is it's stupid to name architecture or art after a religion(with the exception of religious art such as "Islamic caligraphy" or religious buildings like mosques or churches - which is arguable aso.)
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Old December 27th, 2010, 09:09 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
The link you quote also says:

"The monasteries have survived some 2,000 years of destruction, both of human origin and as a result of natural disasters. They have been rebuilt several times in a spirit in keeping with Armenian cultural traditions. "

Besides, nothing in those pictures makes them seem like they really date from the 6th century. They look entirely rebuilt.

Also, please quote the exact name of the building whose pictures you have quoted. The site you give is far too general.
And even if there is historical precedent to muqarnas (which there isn't since the example Cyrus posted was rebuilt contemporaneaously with "Islamic" buildings), it should NOT be an issue because, for the millionth time, architectural styles have precedents, EVERYWHERE, art and architecture doesn't exist in vacuums....countinuations and reactions...
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Old December 27th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #217
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I believe the problem is not that people should use the term "Islamic Architecture" or not, there is "Computer Architecture", why not "Islamic Architecture" or "Satanic Architecture" or anything else, but the problem is to call the architecture of a people as Islamic, the same people who can build churches, temples, and several other non-Islamic buildings in their architectural style, the same people who can be followers of other religions and build the same houses, bridges, ..., why should we distinguish people by their beliefs?!

This is the city of Yazd:



Of course the majority in this city are Muslims but as you probably know Yazd has the largest Zoroastrian population in Iran, there are also a large number of Jews, Moshe Katsav, the former president of Israel, was born in this city, you can certainly find the followers of some other religions in this city, but the architecture is the same, what is the reason? People should change their architecture when they change their religion?!
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Last edited by Cyrus; December 27th, 2010 at 09:49 PM.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 09:43 PM   #218
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There isn't any Islamic architecture just as there isn't an Iranian architecture or British architecture. You can identify some patterns in many Islamic structures, but it doesn't mean that they all belong to a single kind of architecture, just as you can find many patterns in most of the churches in the world and yet, you can't say there is something called "Christian architecture".
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Old December 27th, 2010, 09:59 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turknology View Post
Yes, but that umbrella can become problematic as it tends to group architectural styles that are in essence common to each other as completely different styles. that's why for example I gave the example of a neo-Baroque mosque in my initial post. Is it neo Baroque, or is it Islamic. IMHO it should be classified as Neo Baroque.
That mosque was built in the 19th century, no? I think there was a general disconnect from the past that happened all over the world in the 19th century, mainly due to the industrial revolution, when buildings were constructed with "modern" techniques and clad in historicist, referencial facades because the aesthetic language of modernism hasn't been invented yet. And there was the fashion of the "exotic", "Moorish" Synagogues in Central Europe, Haussman facades in Southeast Asia, Baroque mosques in the Ottoman Empire, "Gothic" skyscrapers in New York, etc. I think that mosque should be relegated to the modern age, and in my opinion, the rules change when it comes to post-industrial revolution architecture. Like, for example, when people here post pictures of these Malaysian mosques built in 1998 or whatever, they are irrelevent since they are just hodge podge post-modernist follies.

If you are writing a book about world architecture, how would you sequence these styles? Seljuk/Armenian? Ummayad/"Byzanto-Sassanian"? Something like that? I just...I don't know...I don't think that makes sense. Anyway I think most of these styles are continuations of the architectural themes of the original Caliphates (Rashidun, Abbasid, Umayyad, Fatimid...) mixed in with contextual references.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 10:13 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWT View Post
If you are writing a book about world architecture, how would you sequence these styles? Seljuk/Armenian? Ummayad/"Byzanto-Sassanian"? Something like that? I just...I don't know...I don't think that makes sense. Anyway I think most of these styles are continuations of the architectural themes of the original Caliphates (Rashidun, Abbasid, Umayyad, Fatimid...) mixed in with contextual references.
I would go to the origins of the design, put an adjective "neo" (if it is an updated version) in front of it and maybe a second adjective like Umayyad.

Now here is another thing (I didn't want to get into theology but I am trying to prove a point here ). Anything that is not part of the Quran or Sunnah is classified as Biddah according to Islam, thus classified as anti-Islamic, thus Islamic architecture is an oxymoron as structures like domes and minarets are classified as biddah and thus anti-Islamic.

A mosque based on Islamic design would be a flat roofed square building with no minarets, domes, decorations, etc. All other styles would be anti-Islamic architecture

Q.E.D.



PS: thus why the blue mosque for example would be neo-Byzantine, or neo-Byzantine Ottoman (if you want to narrow it down), just as the 19th century one would be neo-Baroque (or neo baroque Ottoman if you want to narrow it down)
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Last edited by Turknology; December 27th, 2010 at 10:19 PM.
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