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View Poll Results: Is there Islamic Architecture
Yes 137 74.05%
No 36 19.46%
I don't know! 12 6.49%
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Old December 29th, 2010, 10:10 PM   #281
Adrian12345Lugo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpe View Post
Edit: my initial posting here was a bit harsh, and so I edited it to make the tone less confrontational. I sometimes get a bit too impatient here...

-----------------

Edited post:

They are not a continuation of Roman Architecture.

First, don't forget the almost 1000 years separating late antiquity and the reinterpretation of the classical idiom.

Second, there ARE major differences between the classical schools of the different nations.

Third, several styles co-existed in all these countries with classicism, and all of these styles (classicism included) showed major variations within themselves.

There is a difference between the classicism of Palladio with that of Alberti, for example.

The same with Palladio and Robert Adam, as is with Robert Adam and Inigo Jones.
How can you say they are not the continuation (atleast in Style)? there is a reason its called rebirth(Renaissance)picking up were they(Romans) left off, as best as they could.

And as you can see, there were already many variations with in Roman Architecture.

Anyway i believe the correct term or terms are NeoClassical Baroque Etc.


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Originally Posted by tpe View Post
And BTW, I can see at least 5 Vitruvian rules that the building from Mexico violates.

So does it make it "Mexican Architecture"?
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Old December 29th, 2010, 10:13 PM   #282
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I talked about "Generalization" and "Islamic Terorism" was just an example, anyway I think architecture and terrorism can be linked to each other too, If you link the architecture of some people in a village in Indonesia in the south east Asia with the architecture of some other people in Senegal in the west of Africa just because both of them are Muslims!!!
I am sorry, but this post in particular will not be honored by a rational response.

Anathema sit!
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Old December 29th, 2010, 10:24 PM   #283
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A "continuation" cannot imply 1000 years when the architecture was forgotten, as in the case of Europe after the collapse of the Roman Empire in late Antiquity.

There is a good reason why the 14th and 15th centuries in Europe was termed a "REBIRTH" instead of a continuation. But by that time, the building tradition of the Romans was dead and forgotten for a thousand years, and many things had to be "re-learned".

But as in every case, when an architecture is re-imagined or re-invented, it did not stay true to the original in many many ways. This is natural, as the architecture must suit the climate, the social and religious background of the new age, as well as the level of science and engineering. And above all, the aesthetics have changed in Europe after a lapse of a millennium.

For example, Baroque architecture uses the classical orders and the classical forms, but they use it and overlay it with so much ornamentation and movement that is totally absent from the architecture of classical and late antiquity. "Baroque" is RIGHTFULLY considered another architectural style, and it is obviously NOT the architecture of Ancient Rome.

As for the Mexican building, it was done in the French Beaux Arts style popular during the time in so many countries, especially in Latin America. The style is FRENCH BEAUX ARTS.

Now, for your quiz: do you think that the ancient Romans would make such a roof in any of their buildings? Why or why not?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian12345Lugo View Post
How can you say they are not the continuation (atleast in Style)? there is a reason its called rebirth(Renaissance)picking up were they(Romans) left off, as best as they could.

And as you can see, there were already many variations with in Roman Architecture.

Anyway i believe the correct term or terms are NeoClassical Baroque Etc.





So does it make it "Mexican Architecture"?
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Old December 29th, 2010, 10:27 PM   #284
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Yes, because europeans did give a name to their evolutions (like catalan modernism for gaudi works in Barcelona), and not simply put into "christian architecture".
What does giving names to alterations have to do with what im trying to say?


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Originally Posted by Mekky II View Post
Mayan revival architecture does have roman/greek in it ? =>

I dont even think it has Mayan elements in it other than those crobel vaults, which isnt a style more of a method of construction.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by tpe View Post
I am sorry, but this post in particular will not be honored by a rational response.

Anathema sit!
After reading you previous posts, I really don't expect any rational response from you!

You yourself know that you are generalizing a concept, like talking about "Women Architecture", "Old people Architecture", "Worker Architecture" because there are some special buildings for these people, you can't understand that not only mosques, but all hospitals, universities, markets and etc have some similar elements and it is the reason that they have the same name.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 10:44 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
After reading you previous posts, I really don't expect any rational response from you!

You yourself know that you are generalizing a concept, like talking about "Women Architecture", "Old people Architecture", "Worker Architecture" because there are some special buildings for these people, you can't understand that not only mosques, but all hospitals, universities, markets and etc have some similar elements and it is the reason that they have the same name.
Please read all my previous posts and citations from the vast literature on Sacred Architecture.

Many of the books I have cited are widely available, and their authors are renowned authorities in their respective fields.

They will provide you with ample opportunities to educate yourself about architecture. You have a lot to learn, to be sure.

Good luck!
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Old December 29th, 2010, 10:45 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
Sorry to remind you this but:
  • The Mesopotamians were using bricks for architecture long before Sassanids.
  • The arch form can be heavily found in Babylon, other fertile crescent cities before Persia.
  • Where did Sassanids use the hypostyle hall for their architecture?
  • Where did the Sassanids group a hypostyle hall with a courtyard for example?
  • What about the Nabatean tradition and hundereds of roman architectural forms in the Middle East and North Africa? (It was an integral portion of the Roman Empire before Islam)
  • What about the architecture of ancient Egypt and of the Egyptian Christians?

If you are ignoring these like most Iranians seem to be doing on this thread, I would be inclined to think that you are all being delusional.

In fact the architecture of the first mosque in Islam (after Medina) - the mosque of Damascus - borrowed heavily from the Roman tradition. Same goes for the Dome of the Rock. Many of the early mosques (eg. Ibn Tulun) even recycled the columns existing in Roman architectural sites.

In short, to believe that most Muslim architecture is Sassanid influence is just delusional thinking and extreme ignorance.

ur the ignorant one , Mesopotamia also was part of Iran (the actual land between the rivers is all in modern day Iraq but the extended lands heavily incorporated the persian plateau especially in khuzestan)

so claiming something is Mesopotamian not from Iran is stupid as before the Aryans migrated to iran the ppl living in iran were mesopotamians that stretched across the fertile crescent to southern iran

secondly, the plans of the mosques and courtyards, massive domes etc are all part of the Persian architectural system, ever heard of the eyvan?? these are heavily persian influenced. sassanids also used domes and arches, ever seen taqe kasra (ctisphone)? or have u seen the old sassanid castles?? im assuming not. islamic architecture , at least in most of the islamic world, are based on sassanid and byzantine architecture.

im not saying we made islamic architecture. listen to what i say before saying all this info which im not opposing in the first place. egypt has influenced as well, im not saying they didnt, i just didnt mention them

you making up bs in my word is extreme ignorance, buddy
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Old December 29th, 2010, 10:46 PM   #288
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Islamic culture contains many cultures. As has been said many many times on this thread, not all Persian culture is Islamic, and not all Islamic Culture is Persian. Similarly, not all Buddhist culture is Chinese, and not all Chinese culture is Buddhist. Not all Byzantine culture is Christian, and not all Christian culture is Byzantine.

Is this very difficult to understand?
Well, maybe it's time to put a little order because architecture, religion, philosophy, culture... we will not remake OIC !

Give some pleasure to Cyrus : most of what we call "islamic architecture" is persian derived : Mughal, Timurid, Mamluk, Ottoman etc... with strong previous architecture details. Turkic peoples like arabs were nomads, not builders. I well maintain that was two sides sprawling their own technics however, Persia and Iberia. Cairo seems the epicentre choosen between Bagdad and Cordoba.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 10:57 PM   #289
Adrian12345Lugo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpe View Post
A "continuation" cannot imply 1000 years when the architecture was forgotten, as in the case of Europe after the collapse of the Roman Empire in late Antiquity.

There is a good reason why the 14th and 15th centuries in Europe was termed a "REBIRTH" instead of a continuation. But by that time, the building tradition of the Romans was dead and forgotten for a thousand years, and many things had to be "re-learned".

But as in every case, when an architecture is re-imagined or re-invented, it did not stay true to the original in many many ways. This is natural, as the architecture must suit the climate, the social and religious background of the new age, as well as the level of science and engineering. And above all, the aesthetics have changed in Europe after a lapse of a millennium.

For example, Baroque architecture uses the classical orders and the classical forms, but they use it and overlay it with so much ornamentation and movement that is totally absent from the architecture of classical and late antiquity. "Baroque" is RIGHTFULLY considered another architectural style, and it is obviously NOT the architecture of Ancient Rome.

As for the Mexican building, it was done in the French Beaux Arts style popular during the time in so many countries, especially in Latin America. The style is FRENCH BEAUX ARTS.

Now, for your quiz: do you think that the ancient Romans would make such a roof in any of their buildings? Why or why not?
I dont know why you are so defensive with what im saying


like you said nothing stays the same, these alterations would have took place even if rome lived on.


you dont have to look hard to see the "Roman" in this building
The roman Elements are what give this building an Identity. its face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_Architecture

how is this not the continuation of roman Architecture?
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Old December 29th, 2010, 10:58 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Mekky II View Post
Well, maybe it's time to put a little order because architecture, religion, philosophy, culture... we will not remake OIC !

Give some pleasure to Cyrus : most of what we call "islamic architecture" is persian derived : Mughal, Timurid, Mamluk, Ottoman etc... with strong previous architecture details. Turkic peoples like arabs were nomads, not builders. I well maintain that was two sides sprawling their own technics however, Persia and Iberia. Cairo seems the epicentre choosen between Bagdad and Cordoba.
Hah! Nobody is denying the wealth and influence of Persian architecture in Islam. But as I said, not all Islamic architecture is Persian.

Incidentally, it was give and take as far as Persia and its neighbors were concererned. For example, Timurid architecture and the architecture of the Ilkhanids was heavily influenced by Persia, but it was also heavily influenced by Chinese art. In the period of decadence following the death of Timur and Ulugh Beg, Timurid art flourished and the influence went the other way: the finest products of Persian art at the time were heavily influenced by the art of Bukhara, Herat, and Samarkand. And this is not just true in art and architecture, but also in poetry and literature.

Influence is a two-way street, you know!
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Old December 29th, 2010, 11:05 PM   #291
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Defensive?

I have answered your questions as patiently and as thoroughly as I can. The aim is to try to make you see things less simplistically.

For example, the picture you show below CANNOT be mistaken for a Late Antique or Classical Roman building.

The side volutes are a giveaway. Such volutes never existed in Classical Roman and Greek architecture.

This type of facade is well-documented. The first church to show this type of facade is either Maderno's Santa Susanna, or the great church of the Gesu, which is the principal church of the Jesuits in Rome. That would put the style no earlier than the 16th century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian12345Lugo View Post
I dont know why you are so defensive with what im saying

like you said nothing stays the same, these alterations would have took place even if rome lived on.


you dont have to look hard to see the "Roman" in this building
The roman Elements are what give this building an Identity. its face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_Architecture

how is this not the continuation of roman Architecture?

Last edited by tpe; December 29th, 2010 at 11:11 PM.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 11:07 PM   #292
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Maderno's Santa Susanna:



The Gesu:

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Old December 29th, 2010, 11:49 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by tpe View Post
Please read all my previous posts and citations from the vast literature on Sacred Architecture.

Many of the books I have cited are widely available, and their authors are renowned authorities in their respective fields.

They will provide you with ample opportunities to educate yourself about architecture. You have a lot to learn, to be sure.

Good luck!
There are three groups who write these books, the first groups are some Muslims who have almost no recorded pre-Islamic history, they adopted the architectural styles of other peoples and named it "Islamic Architecture", the second groups are some ultra-religionists who see everything islamic, they believe non-Islamic thing doesn't exist and the third group are some westerners who even don't know the differences between Persians and Arabs, it would be easier for them to call all of them as Muslims!
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Old December 29th, 2010, 11:56 PM   #294
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There are three groups who write these books, the first groups are some Muslims who have almost no recorded pre-Islamic history, they adopted the architectural styles of other peoples and named it "Islamic Architecture", the second groups are some ultra-religionists who see everything islamic, they believe non-Islamic thing doesn't exist and the third group are some westerners who even don't know the differences between Persians and Arabs, it would be easier for them to call all of them as Muslims!

I do not know or claim to care about any racial, ethnic, national, or social agenda you have regarding this discussion.

What is obvious is that you do not have a decent knowledge of architecture. I don't give a fart about any other tangential distinctions you want to draw into this argument. The fact that you have a poor knowledge of art and architecture suffices for me to dismiss you outright.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:03 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by tpe View Post
Defensive?

I have answered your questions as patiently and as thoroughly as I can. The aim is to try to make you see things less simplistically.

For example, the picture you show below CANNOT be mistaken for a Late Antique or Classical Roman building.

The side volutes are a giveaway. Such volutes never existed in Classical Roman and Greek architecture.

This type of facade is well-documented. The first church to show this type of facade is either Maderno's Santa Susanna, or the great church of the Gesu, which is the principal church of the Jesuits in Rome. That would put the style no earlier than the 16th century.
I am not sayin it is! im saying it is the upgraded version of the architecture that rome left behind. like comparing the Pantheon to the Parthenon

Either way im sure those Alterations or ones similar to it would have occurred with or with out the collapse of rome.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:04 AM   #296
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Well, I might have been a bit harsh in my last post to Cyrus.

After all, this turned out to be an interesting thread, with many sidereal discussions on architecture.

At least I should give Cyrus credit for posing the question.

In the end, it doesn't matter that much whether we agree totally or not. The discussions are more important.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:08 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Adrian12345Lugo View Post
I am not sayin it is! im saying it is the upgraded version of the architecture that rome left behind. like comparing the Pantheon to the Parthenon

Either way im sure those Alterations or ones similar to it would have occurred with or with out the collapse of rome.

The Parthenon and the Pantheon have very little structural similarities -- well, at least, they have more differences than similarities.

One is obviously Peraclean Greek, and the other is Imperial Rome. Both are VERY different from each other.

As for the side volutes, not in the thousand years of Roman history (and another thousand of Byzantine) did side volutes ever show up. What makes you think that it would eventually?

The fact is: it didn't.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:21 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by tpe View Post
I do not know or claim to care about any racial, ethnic, national, or social agenda you have regarding this discussion.

What is obvious is that you do not have a decent knowledge of architecture. I don't give a fart about any other tangential distinctions you want to draw into this argument. The fact that you have a poor knowledge of art and architecture suffices for me to dismiss you outright.
You are a loser, it is clear that you are the one who knows nothing about art and architecture.

For example this is the interior of a Persian mosque:



What do you know about:

Rasmi Bandi:



Kase Kari:



Gereh Kari:



Kashi Kari:



Barjasteh Kari:



Sang Kari:



Shishe Kari:



and several other Persian arts?
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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:35 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by tpe View Post
Hah! Nobody is denying the wealth and influence of Persian architecture in Islam. But as I said, not all Islamic architecture is Persian.

Incidentally, it was give and take as far as Persia and its neighbors were concererned. For example, Timurid architecture and the architecture of the Ilkhanids was heavily influenced by Persia, but it was also heavily influenced by Chinese art. In the period of decadence following the death of Timur and Ulugh Beg, Timurid art flourished and the influence went the other way: the finest products of Persian art at the time were heavily influenced by the art of Bukhara, Herat, and Samarkand. And this is not just true in art and architecture, but also in poetry and literature.

Influence is a two-way street, you know!


LOL !!! bukhara and herat etc were all persian!!! the people were also persian untill central asians kicked them out!!! u must be kidding. wonder why tajiks and afghans still speak dialects of persian??? whatever they built after was off persian influence, not their influence on persia.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:35 AM   #300
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Since when was posting pretty pictures proof of knowledge in architecture?

I can train a monkey to do this. And not a very smart monkey at that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
You are a loser, it is clear that you are the one who knows nothing about art and architecture.

For example this is the interior of a Persian mosque:



What do you know about:

Rasmi Bandi:



Kase Kari:



Gereh Kari:



Kashi Kari:



Barjasteh Kari:



Sang Kari:



Shishe Kari:



and several other Persian arts?
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