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View Poll Results: Is there Islamic Architecture
Yes 137 74.05%
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I don't know! 12 6.49%
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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:40 AM   #301
tpe
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LOL !!! bukhara and herat etc were all persian!!! the people were also persian untill central asians kicked them out!!! u must be kidding. wonder why tajiks and afghans still speak dialects of persian??? whatever they built after was off persian influence, not their influence on persia.

Bukhara and Herat are Persianate, not Persian. That part of central Asia was always in the orbit of Persia, but was usually ruled by non-Persian dynasties.

Bukhara and Herat, of course, were already important centers of Persian culture before the coming of Timur.

But with the Timurids, the culture evolved into something much more than Persian, because Timur sought the styles and the very best of everything around the world. Chinese was one example.

And of course, Timur was aiming for the conquest of China before he died.

Again, may I call to your attention that the history of Central Asia is NOT Persian, although Persia played an important part in it (as did China and the northern part of the Subcontinent.)

And BTW, whatever happened to the Turkish homeland? Are the Turks Persian?

Last edited by tpe; December 30th, 2010 at 12:49 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:58 AM   #302
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And since some people here apparently don't give that much credit to the Ilkhanids and the Timurids, let me post a short online reference in its entirity here. Of course, entire books have been written on this subject, and I leave the interested reader to look some of these up.

Personally, I think that it is the most refined period of "Islamic" Art.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ilkh/hd_ilkh.htm


The Mongol invasions of the Islamic world began in 1221 with the conquest of eastern Iran. A more devastating wave of conquest, however, came with Genghis Khan's grandson Hülegü, when Mongol forces subjugated all of Iran and by 1258 had also taken Baghdad, thus bringing to an end the cAbbasid caliphate (750–1258). Establishing rule over most of West Asia, including Iraq, Iran, Khorasan, the Caucasus, and parts of Asia Minor, Hülegü (r. 1256–65) assumed the title of "Il-Khan," meaning lesser Khan, subordinate to the Great Khan ruling in China. This branch of the Mongol dynasty, which became known as the Ilkhanids (1256–1353), centered its power in northwest Iran.

Although Mongol conquests initially brought devastation and affected the balance of artistic production, in a short period of time, the control of most of Asia by the Mongols—the so-called Pax Mongolica—created an environment of tremendous cultural exchange. Following the conversion to Islam of the Il-Khan Ghazan (r. 1295–1304) in 1295 and the establishment of his active cultural policy in support of his new religion, Islamic art flourished once again. East Asian elements absorbed into the existing Perso-Islamic repertoire created a new artistic vocabulary, one that was emulated from Anatolia to India, profoundly affecting artistic production.

During the Ilkhanid period, the decorative arts—textiles, pottery, metalwork, jewelry, and manuscript illumination and illustration—continued along and further developed established lines. The arts of the book, however, including illuminated and illustrated manuscripts of religious and secular texts, became a major focus of artistic production. Baghdad became an important center once again. In illustration, new ideas and motifs were introduced into the repertoire of the Muslim artist, including an altered and more Chinese depiction of pictorial space, as well as motifs such as lotuses and peonies, cloud bands, and dragons and phoenixes. Popular subjects, also sponsored by the court, included well-known stories such as the Shahnama (Book of Kings), the famous Persian epic. Furthermore, the widespread use of paper and textiles also enabled new designs to be readily transferred from one medium to another.

Along with their renown in the arts, the Ilkhanids were also great builders. The lavishly decorated Ilkhanid summer palace at Takht-i Sulayman (ca. 1275), a site with pre-Islamic Iranian resonances, is an important example of secular architecture. The outstanding Tomb of Uljaytu (built 1307–13; r. 1304–16) in Sultaniyya, however, is the architectural masterpiece of the period. Following their conversion to Islam, the Ilkhanids built numerous mosques and Sufi shrines in cities across Iran such as Ardabil, Isfahan, Natanz, Tabriz, Varamin, and Yazd (ca. 1300–1350). After the death of the last Ilkhanid ruler of the united dynasty in 1335, the empire disintegrated and a number of local dynasties came to power in Iraq and Iran, each emulating the style set by the Ilkhanids.


Source: The Art of the Ilkhanid Period (1256–1353) | Thematic Essay | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
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Old December 30th, 2010, 01:20 AM   #303
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Old December 30th, 2010, 01:32 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by tpe View Post
Again, may I call to your attention that the history of Central Asia is NOT Persian, although Persia played an important part in it (as did China and the northern part of the Subcontinent.)

And BTW, whatever happened to the Turkish homeland? Are the Turks Persian?
I can not pass on this one. Central Asia is the homeland of modern iranians. Turkic homeland is in Altaï further north. When iranian tribes (scythians) met turkic ones, it seems there was a merge happening, turks became aware of new war technics and customs. Turks were initially a subgroup of Xiongnu, they returned again their leader and followed iranian tribes toward europe and middle-east. The history of both iranians and turks is now so intermingled that it's very hard to separate them, only on language difference it is possible. Before european colonialism, a united turko-persian world existed for more that a millenium. Both Turkey and Iran actually try to recreate this space : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...n_Organization

Last edited by Mekky II; December 30th, 2010 at 01:39 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 02:09 AM   #305
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It is your problem if you cannot accept the influence of Pax Mongolica not just in Islamic and Central Asian culture, but also on Chinese and European culture.

Like you, I do not condone the bloody beginnings of the Mongol Dynasties.

But one has to accept that by their very conquest of almost ALL of Eurasia, it opened up cross-fertilization of cultures from every part of their Empires: Chinese, Central Asian, Persian, Russian, Turkish, Western European.

To deny it would be delusional.

Even the Chinese, who have probably the most reason to hate the Mongol Dynasty, accepted early on that they did indeed contribute to Chinese culture, even as they assimilated in many ways.

The culture of Central Asia has always been influenced by Persia. But it was the Mongol incursion that opened it up to a broad swath of influences that had never been seen before: Chinese, Far Eastern. and West Eurasian are such examples.

In any case, I was not the one who wrote the above article. Nor did I write the hundreds of books and thousands of papers that pretty much echo what was said by me here and by the above-quoted article.

Accepting the Mongolian role is in no way a lowering of Persian and Islamic civilization. As is commonly the case, conquest of a more advanced civilization by a lesser advanced one leads to cross-fertilization and innovation. It is testament to the more advanced civilization (be it Persia or India or China) that it not only assimilated the conquerors, but also flowered culturally in reaction to the incursions and created something new.



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Originally Posted by Kuwaiti View Post
Sorry but I just cant take this crap much longer.

Tpe is obviously misinformed.

1. Most of Islamic architecture is influenced by the Persian culture and civilization. I'm not Iranian but I speak from a non-biased point of view. Persia is where most scientists, poets and innovators came from during the Islamic Golden age, which lasted for 500 years. We're talking about the likes of Ibn Sina, Ibn Nafis, famous poets, scientists, physicians, artists, etc.

2. Persian art is seen in most holy Islamic shrines throughout Iraq, Iran, Central Asia and Turkey. Even the Ottoman architecture blended mostly a composition of Persian art with a little bit of Byzantine art.

3. Minor contributions to Islamic architecture came from Turkic dynasties that emulated Persians in the first place, as they were essentially 'Persianized'. The only non-Persian Islamic contributions to architecture were seen from the Moors of North Africa and a little bit of traditional Arabian art across the desert plains of the Arabian Peninsula, stretching its outer limits to Damascus, the very most!

But if you want to know the hub of Islamic architecture and culture, it was Merv, Bukhara and Samarkand. Those cities belonged to the Islamic Golden age. They were Persian. Even if some few rulers from time to time were of Turkic origin, it doesn't change the fact most of the people identified themselves as Persians and they were an extension of a Persian Empire known as the Khawarezmid Dynasty.

Fact of the matter is, I as a Muslim feel greatly insulted when someone like Tpe tries to imply that our religion's architecture was also developed or spread expansively by a bunch of war-mongering Mongolian generals who slaughtered millions upon millions of Iranian-speaking peoples across Central Asia, thus causing the biggest and most notable demographic change in the history of our planet, which makes what the Whites did to Native Americans look like a joke. A huge genocide that almost completely eradicated all traces of Indo-European languages from Central Asia, replacing it with tribal Altaic languages that didn't even exist before the 12th century (Kazakh language case in point).

Not to mention the fact Merv, Samarkand and Bukhara were all destroyed by the Mongols. Oh yeah sure, they were the pioneers of revolutionizing Islamic architecture. Sure, and I suppose Santa Claus caused the Winter delays across European airports this past week.

So please save us that pathetic attempt to degrade actual Islamic contributions and credit them instead to someone like Timur or Hulegu, the Mongol version of Adolf Hitler.

Last edited by tpe; December 30th, 2010 at 02:19 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 02:44 AM   #306
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Old December 30th, 2010, 03:34 AM   #307
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The Bubonic plague traveled through the trade routes of the Silk Road, which is older than Pax Mongolica.

Yes, the cities of Central Asia were centers of Islamic culture long before Timur and even the Mongol Dynasties. But we can't deny the fact that these cities flourished like never before during the reign of Timur and his successors. And why not? Were not all the artisans from the conquered lands assembled to make them the most beautiful cities on earth?

History is a funny thing. Had the Nazis won the war, I wonder what we would be saying now?

And it's not like the Nazis came from a barabaric nation. They came from a Germany that certainly had its share of high culture, especially in the 19th century. This proves that cruelty and barbarism can come from even the most civilized societies.

We cringe at Mongol cruelty because of the scale of the slaughter. But every nation in their time had moments of barbarity.

Did not the Parthian and Sassanian kings flay the defeated rulers alive and stuff the skin with straw to be used as footstools?

The same can be said of the Romans. You will not question that these kingdoms were very civilized.

As for the Mongol contribution, I will repeat this more than 3 times: I did not write the article, and I am not alone in saying that the Mongol incursion into Central Asia caused cross-fertilization. You can deny this all you want, but you will be laughed at in all artistic and academic circles. The burden lies on you to prove your point, as what I say here IS the accepted point of view.

You certainly can have your own personal opinion on the matter, but do not pretend for one instant that what I say is not accepted throughout the whole world community of art and history.



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Originally Posted by Kuwaiti View Post
Tpe: Nobody denies that Pax-Mongolica opened routes. It also opened Europe to the bubonic plague and the first signs of biological warfare.

But it doesn't change the fact Bukhara, Samarkand and Merv came first, Timur and Genghis Khan's Hitler-like sons came later.

I suppose Pax-Nazi Germany also catalyzed the world into advancing itself quickly in terms of technology. But I doubt anyone will proudly say that, of course not. Western historians will never say that because it affected their own blood-kin, whereas Genghis Khan - though a ruthless killer - didn't really touch the Western Europeans.

Nobody cares about the silk road where a "naked woman can travel from one end to another without harm". Fact of the matter is, you're not 'disproving' the claim made earlier that Persian architecture has the greatest effect on Islamic culture and architecture.

Here in this topic you are simply trying to enforce your Orientalism belief that the East had a great role in improving Islamic architecture. No, it didn't.

The Mongols didn't open up anything. Read this again 3 times.

The people who spread Persian culture and Islamic architecture were 3 peoples:

1. Arabs. After they conquered Persia during the initial days of the Islamic Caliphate, Persian culture was spread as west as Spain. And thus became the official symbol of Islamic culture.

2. Persians. They themselves spread their culture deep into Central Asia, in the cities that the Mongols ended up shattering.

3. Turks. The Seljuk Turks helped spread Islamic-Persian architecture in Anadolu/Anatolia and Babur the Turkic warrior of Afghanistan helped spread Persian culture into India.

Where were the Mongols in all of this? Passive. Passive creditableness is what it is. The Mongols didn't care about spreading it, it spread by itself. If they had cared, they wouldn't have gone around persecuting Iranians, Turks and Arab Muslims during their waves of invasions.

Last edited by tpe; December 30th, 2010 at 04:55 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 04:26 AM   #308
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since in islam we cannot put animals and human images, so muslims take inspirations from nature including stars and the moon.

for examples, petronas twin towers floorplan, the tiles inside mosques....the pinnacle of minarets...

the shape of stars are improvised according to taste and creativity.....and again abide to the philosophy of islam.....for example the stars used are normally 8 pointed but others can be used as well......however the usage of 6 pointed star is very rare since it is related to the jews. if there are any, it would have been adorned with other geometrical patterns ..... and the crucifix form is not used because it is related to christians..... muslims are not allowed to have symbols of other religious.

since the heavy usage of repetitive geometry only occurs during the islamic golden age because of the understanding and the study of geometry during that era. but then again, the shape can also be the resemblance of flower petals and evolved into something even more complex as far as the imagination goes.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 04:35 AM   #309
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tpe : i think you can stop the argument with central asia, you don't have a single chance : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo
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Old December 30th, 2010, 04:47 AM   #310
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tpe : i think you can stop the argument with central asia, you don't have a single chance : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo
Mekky: permit me to say that I think you have VERY strange theories.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 05:35 AM   #311
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Again, may I call to your attention that the history of Central Asia is NOT Persian, although Persia played an important part in it (as did China and the northern part of the Subcontinent.)
Yes, not Persian, but Iranian.

Indo-Europeans
Indo-Iranians
Iranians
Northeastern
(Central and Inner Asia and Eastern Europe in the Ancient age):
- Avestan
- Kwarazmians
- Bactrian
- Sogdian
- Scythian
- Sarmatian

Northwestern:
- Parthian
- Median

- Kurdish
- Balochi
- etc.
Southwestern:
- Persian
- Tat
- Luri
Southeastern:
- Saka
- Pamiri
- Pashto

So Central Asia spoke an Iranian language through Millennia. The Turkishs arrived in the Middle Ages only and they got into majority after the genocide of the Mongolians. Celteminarian and possible Uralian (Botai culture) folks lived here in the Stone Age before the Iranians. The most important part of the Central Asian history, the Ancient and the Middle age is a Iranian history.

Last edited by blogen_; December 30th, 2010 at 05:43 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 05:52 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Kuwaiti View Post
2. Persians. They themselves spread their culture deep into Central Asia, in the cities that the Mongols ended up shattering.
Not true. The Central-Asian Iranian culture was a local achievement. This is the motherland of the Avesta. The Persians and the Medians shaped an other Iranian culture in the Southwest.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 06:08 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpe View Post
Bukhara and Herat are Persianate, not Persian. That part of central Asia was always in the orbit of Persia, but was usually ruled by non-Persian dynasties.

Bukhara and Herat, of course, were already important centers of Persian culture before the coming of Timur.

But with the Timurids, the culture evolved into something much more than Persian, because Timur sought the styles and the very best of everything around the world. Chinese was one example.

And of course, Timur was aiming for the conquest of China before he died.

Again, may I call to your attention that the history of Central Asia is NOT Persian, although Persia played an important part in it (as did China and the northern part of the Subcontinent.)

And BTW, whatever happened to the Turkish homeland? Are the Turks Persian?
you are right but before the turkic tribes came they were persian, then they became dominated by turks and eventually less dominant (racially). turks arent persian no, but we have both influenced each other. but the Bukhara and samarkand u are talkin bout is before the turkic invasions. avicenna, biruni, molana, ........ are all persians from that region, they are persian ethnically, as they existed prior to turkic invasion. alot of the mosques on uzbekistan and tajikistan are from the persian times.

after that though the turks made a whole new culture, mixing persian and eastern(mostly central asian-chinese) elements etc

the mughol attack of persia is one of our darkest periods as they mercilessly slaughtered citizens and burned villages and cities, therefor, at such time, i dun think the central asians were creating architectural types of their own, or were they?
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Old December 30th, 2010, 06:10 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Kuwaiti View Post
Well said.
Turco-Persian Culture in Central Asia since the days of the Scythians and Gokturks and until present-day. That is the blend that was perfected and made more beautiful with the advent of Islamic culture to act as cement between both barriers.

===

Tpe: Nobody denies that Pax-Mongolica opened routes. It also opened Europe to the bubonic plague and the first signs of biological warfare.

But it doesn't change the fact Bukhara, Samarkand and Merv came first, Timur and Genghis Khan's Hitler-like sons came later.

I suppose Pax-Nazi Germany also catalyzed the world into advancing itself quickly in terms of technology. But I doubt anyone will proudly say that, of course not. Western historians will never say that because it affected their own blood-kin, whereas Genghis Khan - though a ruthless killer - didn't really touch the Western Europeans.

Nobody cares about the silk road where a "naked woman can travel from one end to another without harm". Fact of the matter is, you're not 'disproving' the claim made earlier that Persian architecture has the greatest effect on Islamic culture and architecture.

Here in this topic you are simply trying to enforce your Orientalism belief that the East had a great role in improving Islamic architecture. No, it didn't.

The Mongols didn't open up anything. Read this again 3 times.

The people who spread Persian culture and Islamic architecture were 3 peoples:

1. Arabs. After they conquered Persia during the initial days of the Islamic Caliphate, Persian culture was spread as west as Spain. And thus became the official symbol of Islamic culture.

2. Persians. They themselves spread their culture deep into Central Asia, in the cities that the Mongols ended up shattering.

3. Turks. The Seljuk Turks helped spread Islamic-Persian architecture in Anadolu/Anatolia and Babur the Turkic warrior of Afghanistan helped spread Persian culture into India.

Where were the Mongols in all of this? Passive. Passive creditableness is what it is. The Mongols didn't care about spreading it, it spread by itself. If they had cared, they wouldn't have gone around persecuting Iranians, Turks and Arab Muslims during their waves of invasions.
well said mashallah
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Old December 30th, 2010, 06:14 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Kuwaiti View Post
Sorry but I just cant take this crap much longer.

Tpe is obviously misinformed.

1. Most of Islamic architecture is influenced by the Persian culture and civilization. I'm not Iranian but I speak from a non-biased point of view. Persia is where most scientists, poets and innovators came from during the Islamic Golden age, which lasted for 500 years. We're talking about the likes of Ibn Sina, Ibn Nafis, famous poets, scientists, physicians, artists, etc.

2. Persian art is seen in most holy Islamic shrines throughout Iraq, Iran, Central Asia and Turkey. Even the Ottoman architecture blended mostly a composition of Persian art with a little bit of Byzantine art.

3. Minor contributions to Islamic architecture came from Turkic dynasties that emulated Persians in the first place, as they were essentially 'Persianized'. The only non-Persian Islamic contributions to architecture were seen from the Moors of North Africa and a little bit of traditional Arabian art across the desert plains of the Arabian Peninsula, stretching its outer limits to Damascus, the very most!

But if you want to know the hub of Islamic architecture and culture, it was Merv, Bukhara and Samarkand. Those cities belonged to the Islamic Golden age. They were Persian. Even if some few rulers from time to time were of Turkic origin, it doesn't change the fact most of the people identified themselves as Persians and they were an extension of a Persian Empire known as the Khawarezmid Dynasty.

Fact of the matter is, I as a Muslim feel greatly insulted when someone like Tpe tries to imply that our religion's architecture was also developed or spread expansively by a bunch of war-mongering Mongolian generals who slaughtered millions upon millions of Iranian-speaking peoples across Central Asia, thus causing the biggest and most notable demographic change in the history of our planet, which makes what the Whites did to Native Americans look like a joke. A huge genocide that almost completely eradicated all traces of Indo-European languages from Central Asia, replacing it with tribal Altaic languages that didn't even exist before the 12th century (Kazakh language case in point).

Not to mention the fact Merv, Samarkand and Bukhara were all destroyed by the Mongols. Oh yeah sure, they were the pioneers of revolutionizing Islamic architecture. Sure, and I suppose Santa Claus caused the Winter delays across European airports this past week.

So please save us that pathetic attempt to degrade actual Islamic contributions and credit them instead to someone like Timur or Hulegu, the Mongol version of Adolf Hitler.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 07:53 AM   #316
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ur the ignorant one , Mesopotamia also was part of Iran (the actual land between the rivers is all in modern day Iraq but the extended lands heavily incorporated the persian plateau especially in khuzestan)

so claiming something is Mesopotamian not from Iran is stupid as before the Aryans migrated to iran the ppl living in iran were mesopotamians that stretched across the fertile crescent to southern iran

secondly, the plans of the mosques and courtyards, massive domes etc are all part of the Persian architectural system, ever heard of the eyvan?? these are heavily persian influenced. sassanids also used domes and arches, ever seen taqe kasra (ctisphone)? or have u seen the old sassanid castles?? im assuming not. islamic architecture , at least in most of the islamic world, are based on sassanid and byzantine architecture.

im not saying we made islamic architecture. listen to what i say before saying all this info which im not opposing in the first place. egypt has influenced as well, im not saying they didnt, i just didnt mention them

you making up bs in my word is extreme ignorance, buddy

Pardon? LOL.

You can say parts of western Iran were part of Mesopotamia and not the other way around. Since Mesopotamia predates Iran. Akkadians and Assyrians and so on were Semites - like Arabs and Jews- not Indo-Europeans, like the Iranians.

Last edited by KWT; December 30th, 2010 at 11:08 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 09:04 AM   #317
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Since when was posting pretty pictures proof of knowledge in architecture?

I can train a monkey to do this. And not a very smart monkey at that!
I don't claim to be expert in architecture but I have a PhD in Iranian culture and history and have read some books about the architecture, what about you? I think monkeys don't need any training to post like you!
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Old December 30th, 2010, 10:47 AM   #318
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The origin of Persian culture should be traced somewhere in the Eastern Europe, alongside the Germanic culture, where our great red-haired hero Rostam the Saksi (Germanic Hildebrand) fights against his unrecognized son Sohrab (Germanic Hadubrand) and another great hero the invulnerable Esfandyar (Germanic Siegfried) kills the famous dragon and baths in its blood.





Happy the pagan festival of Yulda! You call it Christmas but we Persians celebrated it as the greated Persian festival some days ago with the name of Yalda, the same Festival that Estonians call it "Yulud", the Germanic pagan festival of Yuletide. Whether you call us Muslim or Christian, we Persians and Germanic people are still Goda (Khoda) worshipper!
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Old December 30th, 2010, 01:57 PM   #319
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I don't claim to be expert in architecture but I have a PhD in Iranian culture and history and have read some books about the architecture, what about you? I think monkeys don't need any training to post like you!

Why only one? I have two.

But it really doesn't matter, does it?

To be proud of Persian culture is justified. But I ask you to extend your world view and see that all things don't necessarily fall into the Persian POV, especially in Islam, which encompasses many and equally great cultures, albeit said that Persian culture greatly influenced Islam in many many aspects.

Last edited by tpe; December 30th, 2010 at 02:03 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 02:53 PM   #320
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Why only one? I have two.

But it really doesn't matter, does it?

To be proud of Persian culture is justified. But I ask you to extend your world view and see that all things don't necessarily fall into the Persian POV, especially in Islam, which encompasses many and equally great cultures, albeit said that Persian culture greatly influenced Islam in many many aspects.
I have never denied the influences of other cultures on the Persian culture, for example about the Persian miniatures in my previous post, you can read everywhere about the strong influence of Chinese paintings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_miniature

The problem is not about these undeniable influences, we know the most famous architects in the Persian empire were not even Persian, like Cenmar who built the Al-Khornaq Palace of the Arab king Nu'man ibn Imru' al-Qais, which was considered as the most famous and beautiful building in the whole Persian empire.

But Islam is just the name of a religion, not an architectural style, it is meaningless to talk about the influence of Persian architecture on Islam or vise versa.
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