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View Poll Results: Is there Islamic Architecture
Yes 137 74.05%
No 36 19.46%
I don't know! 12 6.49%
Voters: 185. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 30th, 2010, 03:48 PM   #321
tpe
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Well, I guess we just differ on a specific POV. On one side, I see your point. But on the other side, I see that all religions and societal systems make requirements that translate distinctly into architecture and art. After all, is not architecture based on function as much as it is based on aesthetics?

The requirements can most certainly be realized in different styles, and in a lot of areas, these requirements of the religion translated into architecture did get realized according to Persian conventions and Persian styles. That is because the cilvilization of Persia was advanced enough at that time to provide models by which the requirements of what was then the new religion were adequately met.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
I have never denied the influences of other cultures on the Persian culture, for example about the Persian miniatures in my previous post, you can read everywhere about the strong influence of Chinese paintings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_miniature

The problem is not about these undeniable influences, we know the most famous architects in the Persian empire were not even Persian, like Cenmar who built the Al-Khornaq Palace of the Arab king Nu'man ibn Imru' al-Qais, which was considered as the most famous and beautiful building in the whole Persian empire.

But Islam is just the name of a religion, not an architectural style, it is meaningless to talk about the influence of Persian architecture on Islam or vise versa.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 04:39 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpe View Post
Well, I guess we just differ on a specific POV. On one side, I see your point. But on the other side, I see that all religions and societal systems make requirements that translate distinctly into architecture and art. After all, is not architecture based on function as much as it is based on aesthetics?

The requirements can most certainly be realized in different styles, and in a lot of areas, these requirements of the religion translated into architecture did get realized according to Persian conventions and Persian styles. That is because the cilvilization of Persia was advanced enough at that time to provide models by which the requirements of what was then the new religion were adequately met.
Ok but these requirements are not translated into architecture by just religion, but also by climate, geography, available building materials, traditional methods of construction and many other things, it is not really possible to ignore all of them and just focus on religion. Relgion just needs some religious buildings, and architecture is not defined by just some religios buildings, you can't build a bridge by religious requirements.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #323
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Ok but these requirements are not translated into architecture by just religion, but also by climate, geography, available building materials, traditional methods of construction and many other things, it is not really possible to ignore all of them and just focus on religion. Relgion just needs some religious buildings, and architecture is not defined by just some religios buildings, you can't build a bridge by religious requirements.

Yes, that is correct. Which is why I have said: not all Persian architecture can be considered "Islamic".

In the popular imagination, people tend to associate an "Islamic" style with elements that are actually Persian. In part, this is understandable, since many structures built for a specific purpose in Islam used the Persian idiom for so long (historically) and so extensively that they tend to be interchanged in the minds of many people. The fact that these elements are now widely used in "Islamic" buildings (e.g., mosques) worldwide should not hide the fact that they are derivations of time-honored Persian forms.

For purposes of convenience, people refer to an "Islamic" style, even though the style might be specifically Persian, Ottoman, Chinese, etc. In some cases, one can argue that the term Islamic" can be used; in other cases, not. But it cannot be denied that many elements of the Persian styles throughout the centuries have been appropriated as "Islamic", rightly or wrongly.

In the same way, the elements and aesthetics of Hellenism were appropriated by the Christian church, so that "nave" and "apse" have mostly taken a religious connotation in everyday life. It is perhaps permissible and not permissible, depending on the level of distinction one wishes to make.

But this is the dilemma of all architecture that evolves for the service of religion -- it cannot be defined too strictly, but nevertheless appropriates elements in secular architecture for its own ends so that in the popular imagination, those element invariably get associated with the religion itself.

Lastly, I recognize that whatever your personal motivations or points of view you have regarding these threads, you do have a level of expertise which must, after all, be recognized, even if one doesn't necessarily agree with you. If a PhD is to mean anything, it is to recognize that the person has invested time and effort in the study of a particular area of expertise.

We cannot always agree -- this is true in all areas of discipline, I guess.

But one should nevertheless recognize that you do have the training to speak out for the cause of Persian culture.

So, if I have been guilty of attacks that were flippant and more personal in nature, then I will ask that you kindly disregard them.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 06:41 PM   #324
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tpe, it sounds good to disuss in a polite manner, but it is always difficult to talk about things which are linked to religions, religionists are not usually tolerant of these subjects, whether they are right or not, so using logic in these discussions can't help those who discuss with them because they don't hear anything against their own beliefs!

It is clear that you are not a religionist person, the fact is that Islamic culture doesn't exist too and that is just the continuation of Arabic culture with some reformations by the Prophet and strong influences from the Persian and Greek cultures, these influences began to appear about one century before Islam, you can find some traces of them in Quran, like the Persian origin word Fardous (Paradise) and the Greek origin word Iblis (Devil), of course through Syriac.

From the sixth century Persians and Byzantines with the help of their Arab vassal states, namely Lakhmids and Ghassanids, began to expand their influences in the Arabian Peninsula, in 540 AD Lakhmids could even conquer a large part of Najd (the central region of the Arabian Peninsula) and in the next years Persian conquered Yemen and in 597 the whole part of southern Arabia became a province of the Sassanid Empire. But in the next century and before Islam, Lakhmids united some Arab tribes and fought against Persians and could defeat them in the battle of Dhi Qar, the situation of Persians in the Arabian Peninsula was changed and finally from the same region the whole Persian empire was conquered.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 08:11 PM   #325
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Pardon? LOL.

You can say parts of western Iran were part of Mesopotamia and not the other way around. Since Mesopotamia predates Iran. Akkadians and Assyrians and so on were Semites - like Arabs and Jews- not Indo-Europeans, like the Iranians.
thats what i mean

and sumerians and elamites were not semites remmeber that they werent aryan though

im not saying persians are the same race as them im saying mesopotamia also included iran

and mesopotamia does not "predate iran" as iran was also part of mesopotamia, infact the worlds first urban centre (town/city) which later encompassed the greater mesopotamian region was chogha mish, 6800 BC
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Old December 30th, 2010, 08:58 PM   #326
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infact the worlds first urban centre (town/city) which later encompassed the greater mesopotamian region was chogha mish, 6800 BC
Hm... challengeable without strong proofs : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlem...illian_culture
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Old December 30th, 2010, 09:11 PM   #327
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Religion is indeed a thorny subject for many people who take things too far and too personally. I personally think that we can discuss the influences that go back and forth between developing religions and the greater art and culture of the people who have these beliefs.

The issue of whether or not there is a distinct religious art and architecture has to be separated from one's personal/religious beliefs and prejudices. But I agree that many people cannot divorce their personal beliefs from a rational and even critical discussion about things surrounding their beliefs.

One wonders how the Persian Empire (its art and culture) would have developed had the conquest not happened. I would think that many things people now think of as "Islamic" would have developed very much along the same lines, expect for certain important exceptions.

I think that Persian art would have continued to develop a figural/sculptural art that would have rivalled anything produced in earlier times, for example.

Whatever may have happened, it is clear that Persian civilization could not have been ignored by the conquerors. Almost every aspect of the early art and architecture is touched by the Persian aesthetic.

I understand that what was done can be viewed as a kind of usurpation of the original Persian patrimony.

But we can look at it in another way: in the end, who really conquered whom?





Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
tpe, it sounds good to disuss in a polite manner, but it is always difficult to talk about things which are linked to religions, religionists are not usually tolerant of these subjects, whether they are right or not, so using logic in these discussions can't help those who discuss with them because they don't hear anything against their own beliefs!

It is clear that you are not a religionist person, the fact is that Islamic culture doesn't exist too and that is just the continuation of Arabic culture with some reformations by the Prophet and strong influences from the Persian and Greek cultures, these influences began to appear about one century before Islam, you can find some traces of them in Quran, like the Persian origin word Fardous (Paradise) and the Greek origin word Iblis (Devil), of course through Syriac.

From the sixth century Persians and Byzantines with the help of their Arab vassal states, namely Lakhmids and Ghassanids, began to expand their influences in the Arabian Peninsula, in 540 AD Lakhmids could even conquer a large part of Najd (the central region of the Arabian Peninsula) and in the next years Persian conquered Yemen and in 597 the whole part of southern Arabia became a province of the Sassanid Empire. But in the next century and before Islam, Lakhmids united some Arab tribes and fought against Persians and could defeat them in the battle of Dhi Qar, the situation of Persians in the Arabian Peninsula was changed and finally from the same region the whole Persian empire was conquered.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 10:13 PM   #328
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Hm... challengeable without strong proofs : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlem...illian_culture
its all good, i mean there are various cities all emerging at the same time but whatever lol
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Old December 30th, 2010, 10:47 PM   #329
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It is good to look at some early mosques (not converted buildings), the oldest preserved mosque in the world is Fahraj Mosque near the city of Yazd in Iran, this mosque was built by Saeed ibn Uthman (son of the third caliph Uthman ibn Affan) during the reign of Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Caliph of the Umayyad Dynasty, about the year of 667 AD.

Archaeologists say that the original mosque had no minaret and the single minaret of this mosque was added in the next centuries, anyway it is one of the earliest minarets too.

This is a plan of the mosque:











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Old December 31st, 2010, 12:55 AM   #330
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If that could help : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest...rld_population

Sassanid Empire represented 37% of world population and Umayyad Caliphate 29% which included former sassanid lands. Don't need to be a mathematician to understand that in early time of islam, most of inhabitants of islamic world were iranians. It seems pretty natural so that the majority population imposed its "modified" architecture, and other things, like someone said in a previous page, persia was the main fuel of islamic golden age.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 02:38 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Mekky II View Post
If that could help : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest...rld_population

Sassanid Empire represented 37% of world population and Umayyad Caliphate 29% which included former sassanid lands. Don't need to be a mathematician to understand that in early time of islam, most of inhabitants of islamic world were iranians. It seems pretty natural so that the majority population imposed its "modified" architecture, and other things, like someone said in a previous page, persia was the main fuel of islamic golden age.
very well said and proved
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Old December 31st, 2010, 09:43 AM   #332
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The results of the poll is interesting, it seems most of those who have vote YES are from Arabic countries and except a few of them, they have posted nothing in this thread, I think they read the topic and immediately voted YES!
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Old December 31st, 2010, 09:56 PM   #333
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There's an older mosque in Kerala (India), dating from 629 AD, buit by the local king with local architecture who converted to Islam by contact with Arab traders (as opposed to foreign conquest). Unfortunately it has been recently modified into a more supposedly 'Islamic' style.

An old picture of it:



Model:

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/azimras...n/3954456574/#



Unfortunately, it supposedly didn't look "Islamic enough" so it was mostly torn down and rebuilt like this:

image hosted on flickr


Read about it here:
http://tourism.webindia123.com/touri...ub_cat=Mosques

Just goes to show that the heavily Persianized architecture that we usually associate with Islamic buildings wasn't always the case. Not in the earliest periods, at least.
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 11:39 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by end2012 View Post
This is false argument. Religion is not suitable for mankind firstly, so Islam superstition not better than Zoroastrian superstition or Christianity superstition or Buddhism supertition.

Islam very aggressive. Try to make everybody Muslim forcefully.
Shows your anti-religious agenda here.
Not to go into a religious argument, however if Islam really was that bad, no matter how many people had been trying to kill people converting out of it (which isn't the case really except for certain places), there would have been mass conversions out of Islam. However, most atheists/agnisticts come from other religious streams rather than Islam. May point to the fact that there is probably something there.


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Originally Posted by Mekky II View Post
The culture of Persia is as close to Saudi Arabia as USA is close of China.
But then, they are both Muslim arn't they?

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Originally Posted by SoroushPersepolisi View Post
ur the ignorant one , Mesopotamia also was part of Iran (the actual land between the rivers is all in modern day Iraq but the extended lands heavily incorporated the persian plateau especially in khuzestan)

so claiming something is Mesopotamian not from Iran is stupid as before the Aryans migrated to iran the ppl living in iran were mesopotamians that stretched across the fertile crescent to southern iran

secondly, the plans of the mosques and courtyards, massive domes etc are all part of the Persian architectural system, ever heard of the eyvan?? these are heavily persian influenced. sassanids also used domes and arches, ever seen taqe kasra (ctisphone)? or have u seen the old sassanid castles?? im assuming not. islamic architecture , at least in most of the islamic world, are based on sassanid and byzantine architecture.

im not saying we made islamic architecture. listen to what i say before saying all this info which im not opposing in the first place. egypt has influenced as well, im not saying they didnt, i just didnt mention them

you making up bs in my word is extreme ignorance, buddy

Me? Ignorant?

- Mesopotamia: Had a civilization building arches, big gates (ishtar), ziggurats, blue tilework etc. long before persians, and as has been pointed out before, were semites.
- Domes, courtyards, arches --- comeon! you can't seriously claim them as persian inventions. They were also heavily used by the Romans who colonized most of the current Muslim world today.
- Iwans are an only heavily Persian tradition, however is only used in greater Iran. You dont find many early day Iwans in lets say egypt, tunisia or morocco. Nor in the heart of the arabian peninsula. If you had read my posts earlier, you would have seen that I already had credited the Persians with the Iwan. So congratulations again.
- Neither by connection, is the majority or some of the most brilliant pieces of early Islamic architecture Persian. eg.







You just cannot deny the roman influence here. As in countless other sites scattered across the levant, western Middle East and North Africa.

Ibn Tulun:

Wikipedia quote: "Arcades cover the four sides of the courtyard. These arcades are supported by piers instead of columns, which is unusual for its time. One explanation for this is that the Christian architect of this mosque wanted to avoid having columns taken as spolia from churches in Cairo."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Ibn_Tulun



The mosque itself looks heavily influenced by mesopotamian architecture (think Babylon, not the Sassanids).



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Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
There are three groups who write these books, the first groups are some Muslims who have almost no recorded pre-Islamic history, they adopted the architectural styles of other peoples and named it "Islamic Architecture", the second groups are some ultra-religionists who see everything islamic, they believe non-Islamic thing doesn't exist and the third group are some westerners who even don't know the differences between Persians and Arabs, it would be easier for them to call all of them as Muslims!

Those are broad generalizations there. You seem to be doing the same things you are accusing the others of doing.




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Originally Posted by Kuwaiti View Post
Sorry but I just cant take this crap much longer.

Tpe is obviously misinformed.
...
2. Persian art is seen in most holy Islamic shrines throughout Iraq, Iran, Central Asia and Turkey. Even the Ottoman architecture blended mostly a composition of Persian art with a little bit of Byzantine art.

3. Minor contributions to Islamic architecture came from Turkic dynasties that emulated Persians in the first place, as they were essentially 'Persianized'. The only non-Persian Islamic contributions to architecture were seen from the Moors of North Africa and a little bit of traditional Arabian art across the desert plains of the Arabian Peninsula, stretching its outer limits to Damascus, the very most!
...
....

Fact of the matter is, I as a Muslim feel greatly insulted when someone like Tpe tries to imply that our religion's architecture was also developed or spread expansively by a bunch of war-mongering Mongolian generals who slaughtered millions upon millions of Iranian-speaking peoples across Central Asia, thus causing the biggest and most notable demographic change in the history of our planet, which makes what the Whites did to Native Americans look like a joke. A huge genocide that almost completely eradicated all traces of Indo-European languages from Central Asia, replacing it with tribal Altaic languages that didn't even exist before the 12th century (Kazakh language case in point).

...
...

So please save us that pathetic attempt to degrade actual Islamic contributions and credit them instead to someone like Timur or Hulegu, the Mongol version of Adolf Hitler.
Tpe seems well-read on architecture! as opposed to some other forumers here with a nationalistic agenda.

2. Seriously? little bit of byzantine forms? I am sure the Turkish forumers would disagree.

3. How about the whole roman / assyrian / babylonian contributions you are forgetting?


Its okay that you feel insulted by the fact that the Mongols are being credited for something Islamic when they were responsible for so much destruction. Evem though they were'nt really part of the golden age, there is a large amount of post-mongolian architecture as well. The fact of the matter is that they had a large contribution to make to Islamic culture as well after they themselves converted to Islam. Doesnt the blue tilework remind you of blue sino/mongolian pottery? dont you make any stylistic connection with the intertwining floral patterns with sino/mongolian designs? It is hard to ignore. Most of central asia / iran's beautiful colorful architecture is post-mongol, not pre-mongol and therefore, indicates a different direction architecture took afterwards.

The Soltanieh dome which the Persians claim as a revolutionizing concept was built by a converted mongolian and the stylism and decoration inside heavily looks inspired by sino-mongolian designs.

This debate seems to have taken a turn for Persian vs. non Persian architecture.

However, as far as Islamic architecture is concerned, it can be Persian or Byzantine. As I have said many times before, only thing that warrants a certain styles inclusion in the Islamic group is because it follows a philosophy molded by any of the Islamic rules - patterns as opposed to pictures, gardens of heaven, towers to call people to prayer, hypostyle or valuted halls to accomodate rows of worshippers, symmetry depicting the unity of god, etc. etc. And again, the grouping just signifies this specific form of influence which can also be found in some (not all) secular buildings of the area as well (eg. Humayun's mausoleum, taj mahal, soltaniyeh, etc.).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
But Islam is just the name of a religion, not an architectural style, it is meaningless to talk about the influence of Persian architecture on Islam or vise versa.
Come again? Really?

I think its hard to ignore the influence of Persian architecture on Islam (you are contradicting your self here), and also it is hard to ignore the influence of the philosophy of Islam on the architecture of Persia.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post

...the fact is that Islamic culture doesn't exist too and that is just the continuation of Arabic culture with some reformations by the Prophet and strong influences from the Persian and Greek cultures, these influences began to appear about one century before Islam, you can find some traces of them in Quran, like the Persian origin word Fardous (Paradise) and the Greek origin word Iblis (Devil), of course through Syriac.
May I remind you that the reformations by the prophet were MAJOR lifestyle reformations that had an indelible impact on culture. No longer were the arabs dressing the same as before, eating or drinking same as before, talking or conducting same as before, or living their lives same as before. But obviously, an areas culture doesnt die out because of religion, but you cannot deny the intense modification of this culture because of the philosophy of religion, and especially of Islam since it has a broader philosophy than religions such as christianity. Similarly, you cannot deny the modification of existing regional architecure by Islam.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekky II View Post
If that could help : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest...rld_population

Sassanid Empire represented 37% of world population and Umayyad Caliphate 29% which included former sassanid lands. Don't need to be a mathematician to understand that in early time of islam, most of inhabitants of islamic world were iranians. It seems pretty natural so that the majority population imposed its "modified" architecture, and other things, like someone said in a previous page, persia was the main fuel of islamic golden age.
Finally we are talking sense here. Please keep in mind the word Modified you used here. Defnitely regional architecture, but modified by Islamic philosophy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
The results of the poll is interesting, it seems most of those who have vote YES are from Arabic countries and except a few of them, they have posted nothing in this thread, I think they read the topic and immediately voted YES!
Again another broad generalization to serve your Persian vs. Arab agenda.

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Old January 3rd, 2011, 12:11 PM   #335
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Shows your anti-religious agenda here.
Not to go into a religious argument, however if Islam really was that bad, no matter how many people had been trying to kill people converting out of it (which isn't the case really except for certain places), there would have been mass conversions out of Islam. However, most atheists/agnisticts come from other religious streams rather than Islam. May point to the fact that there is probably something there.
People will believe anything if they are indoctrinated properly. If it is indeed the case that very few muslims become atheists/agnostics openly, it's because they are indoctrinated much more effectively, not to mention social and family pressures. Nothing to do with some inherent awesomeness of Islam.

In any case, this is about architecture, not religion. I tend to sympathize with the sentiments of Cyrus/end2012 if not their conclusions. There is too much emphasis on strengthening the perceived link between Islamic beliefs and so-called Islamic architecture, as if the architecture was spawned from the religion itself. Nothing of the sort of course. Muslim architects simply modified and developed styles available at the time, just like they do today.

Infact, as that mosque from Kerala shows, some of the earliest Islamic buildings had very little in common stylistically with what is generally perceived as "Islamic" today. Where does that leave us?

Cheraman Mosque, Kerala, India: http://www.cheramanmosque.com/
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 03:01 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Marathaman View Post
There's an older mosque in Kerala (India), dating from 629 AD
That date cannot be correct, because in 629 AD, Medina (Saudi Arabia) was the only city in the world with a mosque. But I agree, it's a pity that particular mosque in Kerala got remodeled.

With respect to the original question, I do think there is such a thing as Islamic architecture, though how one defines it is a matter of opinion. One could restrict it religeous buildings alone, or include secular ones. Some might exclude works of non-Muslim architects in Muslim countries, or works of Muslim architects in non-Muslim countries...whereas others would include such buildings in their conception of Islamic architecture. There's no right or wrong as far as such definitions go. I lean towards a more liberal and inclusive definition. I see books on Islamic architecture in the west...and they tend to stop in the 1600s. Such a cut-off, IMO, paints a very incomplete picture.

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Old January 3rd, 2011, 03:13 PM   #337
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^That is what all the books say. The date is 629AD according to all sources.


http://books.google.com/books?id=Ovx...mosque&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=ta6...mosque&f=false


Local traditions have it that Cheraman Juma Masjid in Kerala was established in the year 629CE. An inscription in Arabi-Malayalam language on the gate of the masjid gives the date as 5 Hijri. This makes Cheraman Juma Masjid in Kodungallur in the Thrissur district of Kerala, the first mosque of India and one of the oldest in the whole world.

Legend has it that the king of Kodungallur, Cheraman Perumal accepted Islam and traveled to Madina to meet the Prophet Mohammad (salallahu alaihi wasallam). He died on his way back and is now buried in Salalah, Oman. Before dying, he instructed his travel companions to spread the message of Islam in his homeland.


http://www.twocircles.net/2010jan03/...jid_india.html
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 03:19 PM   #338
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I think the term 'Islamic Architecture' is very Euro-centric. It lumps in the architecture of all the vast Islamic world into one broad categorization, when in fact the regions have different architectural styles. This is why I voted No.
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 03:32 PM   #339
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There's an older mosque in Kerala (India), dating from 629 AD, buit by the local king with local architecture who converted to Islam by contact with Arab traders (as opposed to foreign conquest). Unfortunately it has been recently modified into a more supposedly 'Islamic' style.
There are several other converted buildings, some of them were built hundreds years before Islam, it seems Fahraj Mosque is the only known oldest mosque in the world which was originally built by Muslims and never reconstructed.
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Old January 4th, 2011, 03:35 AM   #340
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Shows your anti-religious agenda here.
Not to go into a religious argument, however if Islam really was that bad, no matter how many people had been trying to kill people converting out of it (which isn't the case really except for certain places), there would have been mass conversions out of Islam. However, most atheists/agnisticts come from other religious streams rather than Islam. May point to the fact that there is probably something there.




But then, they are both Muslim arn't they?




Me? Ignorant?

- Mesopotamia: Had a civilization building arches, big gates (ishtar), ziggurats, blue tilework etc. long before persians, and as has been pointed out before, were semites.
- Domes, courtyards, arches --- comeon! you can't seriously claim them as persian inventions. They were also heavily used by the Romans who colonized most of the current Muslim world today.
- Iwans are an only heavily Persian tradition, however is only used in greater Iran. You dont find many early day Iwans in lets say egypt, tunisia or morocco. Nor in the heart of the arabian peninsula. If you had read my posts earlier, you would have seen that I already had credited the Persians with the Iwan. So congratulations again.
- Neither by connection, is the majority or some of the most brilliant pieces of early Islamic architecture Persian. eg.







You just cannot deny the roman influence here. As in countless other sites scattered across the levant, western Middle East and North Africa.

Ibn Tulun:

Wikipedia quote: "Arcades cover the four sides of the courtyard. These arcades are supported by piers instead of columns, which is unusual for its time. One explanation for this is that the Christian architect of this mosque wanted to avoid having columns taken as spolia from churches in Cairo."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Ibn_Tulun



The mosque itself looks heavily influenced by mesopotamian architecture (think Babylon, not the Sassanids).






Those are broad generalizations there. You seem to be doing the same things you are accusing the others of doing.






Tpe seems well-read on architecture! as opposed to some other forumers here with a nationalistic agenda.

2. Seriously? little bit of byzantine forms? I am sure the Turkish forumers would disagree.

3. How about the whole roman / assyrian / babylonian contributions you are forgetting?


Its okay that you feel insulted by the fact that the Mongols are being credited for something Islamic when they were responsible for so much destruction. Evem though they were'nt really part of the golden age, there is a large amount of post-mongolian architecture as well. The fact of the matter is that they had a large contribution to make to Islamic culture as well after they themselves converted to Islam. Doesnt the blue tilework remind you of blue sino/mongolian pottery? dont you make any stylistic connection with the intertwining floral patterns with sino/mongolian designs? It is hard to ignore. Most of central asia / iran's beautiful colorful architecture is post-mongol, not pre-mongol and therefore, indicates a different direction architecture took afterwards.

The Soltanieh dome which the Persians claim as a revolutionizing concept was built by a converted mongolian and the stylism and decoration inside heavily looks inspired by sino-mongolian designs.

This debate seems to have taken a turn for Persian vs. non Persian architecture.

However, as far as Islamic architecture is concerned, it can be Persian or Byzantine. As I have said many times before, only thing that warrants a certain styles inclusion in the Islamic group is because it follows a philosophy molded by any of the Islamic rules - patterns as opposed to pictures, gardens of heaven, towers to call people to prayer, hypostyle or valuted halls to accomodate rows of worshippers, symmetry depicting the unity of god, etc. etc. And again, the grouping just signifies this specific form of influence which can also be found in some (not all) secular buildings of the area as well (eg. Humayun's mausoleum, taj mahal, soltaniyeh, etc.).




Come again? Really?

I think its hard to ignore the influence of Persian architecture on Islam (you are contradicting your self here), and also it is hard to ignore the influence of the philosophy of Islam on the architecture of Persia.






May I remind you that the reformations by the prophet were MAJOR lifestyle reformations that had an indelible impact on culture. No longer were the arabs dressing the same as before, eating or drinking same as before, talking or conducting same as before, or living their lives same as before. But obviously, an areas culture doesnt die out because of religion, but you cannot deny the intense modification of this culture because of the philosophy of religion, and especially of Islam since it has a broader philosophy than religions such as christianity. Similarly, you cannot deny the modification of existing regional architecure by Islam.




Finally we are talking sense here. Please keep in mind the word Modified you used here. Defnitely regional architecture, but modified by Islamic philosophy.




Again another broad generalization to serve your Persian vs. Arab agenda.
LOL omg how many times do i say this, i never said they were persian invensions, i said iran was also a part of mesopotamia !!!!!!!!!! man read what im saying

ziggurats?? lol there are ziggurats in iran aswell. the modern dome indeed is persian though, persians were the first to learn to place a dome on a square base aswell. and its not "iwan" its Eyvan. and many of the mesopotamian elements were further developed and mastered by persians and later even romans, so much that it became a separate element of their own thought

and also, u mentioned islamic philosophy influencing persian architecture??? LOL persian philosophy is arguiably what even caused islamic philosophy to exist. man u need to do some reading

science and technology of the "islamic golden age" is mostly of iran, as prophet muhammad said "If learning and Knowledge were suspended in the highest parts of heaven, the Persians would attain it" - Muhammad (pbuh)

the rise of islamic culture can be due to the work of persians

i mean i might sound a little too "persian this persian that" but trust me, this is the way it was. watch some neutral documentaries, books

im not questioning ur knowledge im just asking to persue it more
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