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View Poll Results: Is there Islamic Architecture
Yes 137 74.05%
No 36 19.46%
I don't know! 12 6.49%
Voters: 185. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 24th, 2010, 10:05 AM   #141
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stupid thread!
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Old December 24th, 2010, 11:45 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
Islam is the name of a religion and Muslims from Indonesia to Morocco are followers of this religion, after the conquest of Persia, most of Zoroastrian domed fire-temples were converted to mosques and they became the prototype of early Islamic mosques, also Zoroastrian fire-towers which are called Minaret in Arabic, from the root نار (Nar) "fire", were also used as Islamic buildings. You can see Mihrab, the Persian name of Mithraeum, in the mosques too. Other types of mosques, like the ones in Istanbul, were also adopted from the architecture of other peoples, so I believe there is no Islamic architecture, what do you think?

Yes there is such a thing as Islamic architecture, it even bequeaths Christianity those bosomshaped steepletops in the Orthodox brand. Igloo, grass hut, thatch cottage, bling bling concrete box luxury apartments and pyramids, it's all architecture.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 04:25 PM   #143
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I think the main reason that Arabs, Turks and most other Muslims use the term "Islamic Architecture" is that they don't have pre-Islamic architecture, maybe for the same reason that you see most of Persian scientists, such Avicenna, Khayyam, Khwarizmi, Biruni, Razi, ... are also called Muslim scientists, the interesting thing is that some of them, like Khwarizmi, founder of Algebra and Algorithms, were not even Muslim.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 05:00 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
Again dude, you messed up the etymology. Its not Islam-Ab-ad here, its actually Islam-abad.

Abad means dwelling. And its not a persian word.

Dont embarass yourself. Really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
The suffix "-abad" is not Persian? so what is it?!!! You seem to be a great etymologist! What is the meaning of "Shahr-ab"? dominion's water?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran : The Sassanids established an empire roughly within the frontiers achieved by the Achaemenids, referring to it as Erânshahr or Iranshahr, , "Dominion of the Iranians", (i.e. of Iranians), with their capital at Ctesiphon.[64] Unlike the diadochic Seleucids and the succeeding Arsacids, who used a vassalary system, the Sassanids—like the Achaemenids—had a system of governors (MP: shahrab) personally appointed by the Emperor and directed by the central government.
Sorry my bad there. Abad is a Persian word as well which means to inhabit as distinct from aab which means water. Abad is also an Arabic word which means to perpetuate. So Islamabad using either root means the Dwelling abode of Islam or where Islam perpetuates.

As far as the word Shahrab is concerned, check shah-rab, as opposed to Shahr-ab. Makes more sense that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
It just your ignorance of ancient Persian art and architecture, this is a Persian Inscription in Pahlavi script hundreds years before Islam:

Are you claiming now that Persians invented Arabic calligraphy? or that Muslims got the Arabic calligraphy from the Persians?

Please read following references:

Cursive scripts coexisted with Kufic and date back to before Islam, but because in the early stages of their development they lacked discipline and elegance, they were usually used for secular purposes only.

Under the Ummayads and Abbasids, court requirements for correspondence and record keeping resulted in many developments to the cursive scripts, and several styles were devised to fulfill these needs. Abu Ali Muhammad Ibn Muqlah (d. 940), along with his brother, became accomplished calligraphers in Baghdad in an early age. Abu Ali became a Vizir to three Abbasid caliphs, and is credited with developing the first script to obey strict proportional rules. His system utilized the dot as a measuring unit for line proportions, and a circle with a diameter equals to the Alef's height as a measuring unit for letter proportions.
http://www.sakkal.com/ArtArabicCalligraphy.html

In the early stages of calligraphic development, scripts lacked discipline and elegance so they were used for daily administrative purposes only. Writing progressed with both Cursive (circular) and Geometric scripts. A system of letter-pointing had not been developed yet, which resulted in people confusing letters, words and pronunciation, especially with an increasing number of non-Arabs embracing Islam. Reform was required to avoid confusion and a system of Naqt (letter-pointing) and Tashkeel (vowel indication) was developed by Abul Aswad al Du'ali (d.688). Al Khalil ibn Ahmad al Farahidi (d.786) devised a tashkeel system to replace Abu al Aswad's. His system was universally applied since the early eleventh century CE,
http://www.bibalex.org/calligraphyce...r.aspx?page=54


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
I think the main reason that Arabs, Turks and most other Muslims use the term "Islamic Architecture" is that they don't have pre-Islamic architecture, maybe for the same reason that you see most of Persian scientists, such Avicenna, Khayyam, Khwarizmi, Biruni, Razi, ... are also called Muslim scientists, the interesting thing is that some of them, like Khwarizmi, founder of Algebra and Algorithms, were not even Muslim.
Do you know that Persepolis's architecture borrowed heavily from the Egyptians and the greeks? So Persians probably did not have an architecture earlier either! However, I would not say that cause I know better. Just because Saudi doesnt promote KSA's architectural treasures doesnt mean that the people there were cavemen before Islam.

Khwarizmi was not a Muslim? Really? Wikipedia says he WAS (even if he had been a Zoroastrian earlier). He even studied Math in Baghdad!!! the city that was MADE and developed by the Muslims into this mega-center for learning in the ancient world!!

Regarding al-Khwārizmī's religion, Toomer writes:
Another epithet given to him by al-Ṭabarī, "al-Majūsī," would seem to indicate that he was an adherent of the old Zoroastrian religion. This would still have been possible at that time for a man of Iranian origin, but the pious preface to al-Khwārizmī's Algebra shows that he was an orthodox Muslim, so al-Ṭabarī's epithet could mean no more than that his forebears, and perhaps he in his youth, had been Zoroastrians.[1]
In Ibn al-Nadīm's Kitāb al-Fihrist we find a short biography on al-Khwārizmī, together with a list of the books he wrote. Al-Khwārizmī accomplished most of his work in the period between 813 and 833. After the Islamic conquest of Persia, Baghdad became the centre of scientific studies and trade, and many merchants and scientists from as far as China and India traveled to this city, as did Al-Khwārizmī. He worked in Baghdad as a scholar at the House of Wisdom established by Caliph al-Maʾmūn, where he studied the sciences and mathematics, which included the translation of Greek and Sanskrit scientific manuscripts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamma...4%81rizm%C4%AB

Last edited by swerveut; December 24th, 2010 at 05:43 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 05:14 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
It just your ignorance of ancient Persian art and architecture, this is a Persian Inscription in Pahlavi script hundreds years before Islam:

What the hell does that have to do with anything I said. Did you know that we had roofs over our head thousands of years ago? Long before Islam aswell? It seems you have a hard time understanding that architecture is not some static kind of thing, it evolves. Islamic architecture evolved by using and REFINING all sorts of different architecture. Thats how every form of architecture gets its presence by the way. Its this unique combination of styles which makes it "Islamic" - it has more or less nothing to do with the core of the religion itself, but more with cultures which are inspired by the religion.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 05:31 PM   #146
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As for the other scholars....

Al Razi: Why would he consider writing about the Shariah if he wasn't a Muslim?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamma...hical_Approach

Quote:
When contemplating his destiny after death, a benevolent and good man who acts according to the ordinances of the Islamic Shari`ah, has after all nothing to fear because it indicates that he will have comfort and permanent bliss in the Hereafter. The one who doubts the Shari`ah, may contemplate it, and if he diligently does this, he will not deviate from the right path. If he falls short, Allah will excuse him and forgive his sins because it is not demanded of him to do something which he cannot achieve.
Other Al Razi: Oh this one is more clearly defined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fakhr_al-Din_al-Razi

Quote:
Fakhruddin Razi or Imam Razi, was a Persian[2][3] polymath:[4] a Sunni Islamic theologian of the Ash'ari school, Islamic legal scholar of the Shafi'i school, Madrasah professor, and expert in a wide variety of disciplines, including the traditional Islamic fields of Sharia law, Fiqh jurisprudence, Islamic literature, Tafsir exegesis, Kalam theology, Arabic grammar and Muslim history; the Islamic philosophies of ethics and metaphysics; the formal sciences of logic and mathematics; the natural sciences of astronomy, cosmology and physics; Islamic psychology;[5] medicine;[6] and the occult arts of alchemy and astrology.[7]
Al Biruni: Although his early life is very unclear, most people who have researched his life, called him a Muslim (albeit with an uncertain school of thought).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ray...i#cite_note-95

Quote:
^ Bill Scheppler (2005). "Philosophy and Religion". In: Al-Biruni: master astronomer and Muslim scholar of the eleventh century, The Rosen Publishing Group, pp 43-44
Omar Khayyam: Even though he wasn't a very devout person, Wikipedia says this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Kh...ws_on_religion

Quote:
Robertson (1914) believes that Khayyám was not devout and had no sympathy for popular religion,[26] but the verse: "Enjoy wine and women and don't be afraid, God has compassion," suggests that he might not have been an atheist.
Also
Quote:
But some specialists, like Seyyed Hossein Nasr who looks at the available philosophical works of Khayyám, maintain that it is really reductive to just look at the poems (which are sometimes doubtful) to establish his personal views about God or religion; in fact, he even wrote a treatise entitled "al-Khutbat al-gharrå˘" (The Splendid Sermon) on the praise of God, where he holds orthodox views, agreeing with Avicenna on Divine Unity.[7] In fact, this treatise is not an exception, and S.H. Nasr gives an example where he identified himself as a Sufi, after criticizing different methods of knowing God, preferring the intuition over the rational
Avicenna: He was not a Muslim? then why did he pray so much??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna#Early_life

Quote:
For the next year and a half, he studied philosophy, in which he encountered greater obstacles. In such moments of baffled inquiry, he would leave his books, perform the requisite ablutions (wudu), then go to the mosque, and continue in prayer (salah) till light broke on his difficulties.
Cheers. I will end my reply to Cyrus with the following quote from the Qur'an:

"The faithful slaves of the Beneficient are they who walk upon the earth modestly, and when the foolish ones address them, answer: Peace." (25:63)

Last edited by swerveut; December 24th, 2010 at 05:39 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 05:45 PM   #147
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Maybe they are Muslim but they are Persian first. Persian history always stolen by non-Persian countries and called "Islamic" .

Persia is strong, proud ancient country. Islam is just religion. Scientist and Mathematician never identify by Religion.

Christian scientist? Ever hear? No. Always German Scientist or Italian Scientist.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 06:02 PM   #148
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Who's denied they were Persian? You guys sound really insecure about Persia.

The world of Islam proudly accepts them as one of their own, however I have as yet heard nobody claim that they were not Persian!

As for these guys, most of them studied in Baghdad and were multi-lingual. It would be up to them to decide which identity they put first themselves - either Islamic or Persian. However I am sure that being as enlightened as they were, they were pretty inclusive in their beleifs rather than being xenophobic like you sound.

No offense to the Iranians here, however the Persians were once a proud part of the mainstream Islamic world and contributed heavily to its scholarship until the Safavids beat and tortured them into converting to Shia Islam and pigeon-holed them into only a singular territory.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 06:12 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
Sorry my bad there. Abad is a Persian word as well which means to inhabit as distinct from aab which means water. Abad is also an Arabic word which means to perpetuate. So Islamabad using either root means the Dwelling abode of Islam or where Islam perpetuates.
It is really fun to search the words in Latin for finding the meaning of them in Arabic or Persian, that is اسلام آباد not اسلامبد, there are different "A" sounds in Persian -abad and Arabic Abad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
As far as the word Shahrab is concerned, check shah-rab, as opposed to Shahr-ab. Makes more sense that way.
No that is Shahr-ab, like Mihr-ab, the Persian suffix -ab means "protector, keeper" and Islamabad can mean "protected by Islam", of course the suffix "-abad" also means "a protected area" or "a town".

Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
Are you claiming now that Persians invented Arabic calligraphy? or that Muslims got the Arabic calligraphy from the Persians?
I meant it doesn't relate to Islam, as you mentioned both Persians and Arabs had the art of calligraphy before Islam, so it can not be considered as an Islamic art.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
Khwarizmi was not a Muslim? Really? Wikipedia says he WAS (even if he had been a Zoroastrian earlier). He even studied Math in Baghdad!!! the city that was MADE and developed by the Muslims into this mega-center for learning in the ancient world!!
I didn't know that the ethnicity or religion of people will be changed, if they study in other cities, anyway you should know that Baghdad, "Gift of God" in Persian, was part of the large capital of Persian empires for one thousand years, you can still see the ruin of the ancient Persian palace in the south of this city.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 06:17 PM   #150
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Old December 24th, 2010, 06:29 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
Do you know that Persepolis's architecture borrowed heavily from the Egyptians and the greeks? So Persians probably did not have an architecture earlier either! However, I would not say that cause I know better. Just because Saudi doesnt promote KSA's architectural treasures doesnt mean that the people there were cavemen before Islam.
Persepolis's architecture is in fact a combination of almost all ancient architectures, the purpose of building this huge architectural complex was to show this diversity, ancient Persian kings proudly believed that that they have gathered the best architects of the world to build Persepolis.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 06:35 PM   #152
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Who's denied they were Persian? You guys sound really insecure about Persia.

The world of Islam proudly accepts them as one of their own, however I have as yet heard nobody claim that they were not Persian!

As for these guys, most of them studied in Baghdad and were multi-lingual. It would be up to them to decide which identity they put first themselves - either Islamic or Persian. However I am sure that being as enlightened as they were, they were pretty inclusive in their beleifs rather than being xenophobic like you sound.

No offense to the Iranians here, however the Persians were once a proud part of the mainstream Islamic world and contributed heavily to its scholarship until the Safavids beat and tortured them into converting to Shia Islam and pigeon-holed them into only a singular territory.
There is no "world of Islam". Islam religious superstition. Scientist work to rid world of superstition. Totally opposite.

Galileo not called "Christian scientist".
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Old December 24th, 2010, 06:35 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
It is really fun to search the words in Latin for finding the meaning of them in Arabic or Persian, that is اسلام آباد not اسلامبد, there are different "A" sounds in Persian -abad and Arabic Abad.

No that is Shahr-ab, like Mihr-ab, the Persian suffix -ab means "protector, keeper" and Islamabad can mean "protected by Islam", of course the suffix "-abad" also means "a protected area" or "a town".
Please define also the meaning of the suffix -ad following the -ab if you say they are separate -ab-ad's as opposed to -abad in arabic or Persian. Maybe you may claim next that even Islamabad was a Persian city earlier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
I meant it doesn't relate to Islam, as you mentioned both Persians and Arabs had the art of calligraphy before Islam, so it can not be considered as an Islamic art.
But then... only the Muslims used it extensively to decorate our buildings!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
I didn't know that the ethnicity or religion of people will be changed, if they study in other cities, anyway you should know that Baghdad, "Gift of God" in Persian, was part of the large capital of Persian empires for one thousand years, you can still see the ruin of the ancient Persian palace in the south of this city.
Please see post# 148.

Also, there may have been a city there probably earlier, however Muslim civilization made Baghdad the city of learning.

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There is no "world of Islam". Islam religious superstition. Scientist work to rid world of superstition. Totally opposite.

Galileo not called "Christian scientist".
Only to you my dear.

It is a well known fact that in the early days of conquest, Muslims used to divide the world into two realms: Dar-al-Harb and the Dar-al-Islam meaning the Land of combat/conquest and the Land of Islam respectively. World of Islam is a popular phrase used my Muslims up to this day referring to the collective Muslim community.

By the way, Galileo is a bad example. I havent heard of any medieval european scientist that was not ostracized by his community. Quite unlike in Islamic lands (or if you prefer, lands where Islam prevailed).

Last edited by swerveut; December 24th, 2010 at 06:42 PM. Reason: added second quote
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Old December 24th, 2010, 06:53 PM   #154
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Because Galileo challenge Christian superstition. If scientist challenge Islam superstition, then they also ostracize.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 07:24 PM   #155
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Pour moi, il y a une architecture islamique dans la mesure où il y a des invariants que l'on retrouve dans beaucoup d'édifices religieux islamiques. Par exemple la forme des fenêtres ou bien les arcs qui lient deux colonnes. Ou bien encore l'organisation des mosquées. En revanche je ne crois pas que l'on puisse parler d'un mouvement architectural islamique, cela n'a pas beaucoup de sens.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 07:29 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveut View Post
Who's denied they were Persian? You guys sound really insecure about Persia.

The world of Islam proudly accepts them as one of their own, however I have as yet heard nobody claim that they were not Persian!

As for these guys, most of them studied in Baghdad and were multi-lingual. It would be up to them to decide which identity they put first themselves - either Islamic or Persian. However I am sure that being as enlightened as they were, they were pretty inclusive in their beleifs rather than being xenophobic like you sound.

No offense to the Iranians here, however the Persians were once a proud part of the mainstream Islamic world and contributed heavily to its scholarship until the Safavids beat and tortured them into converting to Shia Islam and pigeon-holed them into only a singular territory.
What is wrong with the Safavids or Shia Islam? The Safavids were an advanced society.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 08:14 PM   #157
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This discussion is useless, the problem is much more than the architecture, our languages are Islamic, sciences are Islamic, all things in this world are Islamic, non-Islamic things are in the the Land of combat, Muslims should fight and kill to make them Islamic too, because there shouldn't be any non-Islamic thing in this world!
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Old December 24th, 2010, 08:26 PM   #158
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Dont know if you knew this, but when empires (even European ones) were expanding in the old days, it was through conquest / combat.




Really. Discussion with you is useless.

Lets appreciate some good Islamic architecture:



image hosted on flickr





Oh, and just for fun, I present to you, the UNISLAMIC Taj Mahal:
still indo-persian architecture

Last edited by swerveut; December 24th, 2010 at 09:26 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 10:00 PM   #159
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We will appreciate if you also remove your ugly minarets from Hagia Sophia and other pre-Islamic buildings to see the real beauty of these architectural treasures.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 10:08 PM   #160
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u need to admit the existed islamic architecture..if tajmahal is moghul,samarra mosque tower is persian..what type of architecture is this>
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