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Old December 24th, 2015, 02:15 PM   #521
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Quote:
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People are everywhere!!!
No, they are ghosts, you must be mistaken
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Old December 26th, 2015, 05:00 PM   #522
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Old December 27th, 2015, 04:02 AM   #523
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Old December 27th, 2015, 07:04 PM   #524
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Any photos of the other CBD across the river?
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Old December 27th, 2015, 08:34 PM   #525
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Any photos of the other CBD across the river?
You mean Xiangluowan? There's a thread for it, here.
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Old January 7th, 2016, 03:31 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Which other countries besides China, USSR (and other former Communist countries) and Singapore have undergone mass planned urbanization?
I'm not aware of any. Perhaps Sweden to some extent? A few separate examples in UK (Milton Keynes)?
Maybe South Korea?
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Old January 7th, 2016, 05:06 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Which other countries besides China, USSR (and other former Communist countries) and Singapore have undergone mass planned urbanization?
I'm not aware of any. Perhaps Sweden to some extent? A few separate examples in UK (Milton Keynes)?
Well, Brazil with Brasilia was THE example for a planned city. UAE and Saudi Arabia also have a few of those mass planned cities. They don't have the size of Chinese cities just cause they don't have the population.

And if you go back in time, Washinton DC was probably the first modern example of such planned development. (if you don't count the square grid city/fortress that China builds since the bronze age)
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Old January 7th, 2016, 12:31 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by luhai View Post
Well, Brazil with Brasilia was THE example for a planned city. UAE and Saudi Arabia also have a few of those mass planned cities. They don't have the size of Chinese cities just cause they don't have the population.

And if you go back in time, Washinton DC was probably the first modern example of such planned development. (if you don't count the square grid city/fortress that China builds since the bronze age)
Was not the entire city, but Paris also had a massive planned area... a vast area around Champs-Élysées razed down old narrow streets and slum-like houses to build large boulevards and big buildings in the 19 century. (Haussmann's Plans d'urbanisme du Second Empire)



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Old January 7th, 2016, 04:39 PM   #529
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Hello Guys,

This article is for your cognizance about the chinese Ghost Citys. It can be a candle in your discussion.

https://mises.org/library/reality-be...m-bust-economy
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www.misesde.org and www.mises.com
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Old January 7th, 2016, 06:11 PM   #530
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Please don't post this propaganda.
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Old January 7th, 2016, 08:25 PM   #531
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oh god... some people believe such articles in China? It's worse than I thought hahaha
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Old January 7th, 2016, 11:10 PM   #532
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Hey im new here sorry for what might be a silly question but why are the streets deserted?
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Old January 8th, 2016, 01:19 AM   #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by storms991 View Post
Please don't post this propaganda.
Propaganda ? You're confused about just who's churning out the propaganda.

Some high-demand areas of China will never seem to have enough space for either offices or residents. In other areas, the demand is there but the people simply can't afford what's being offered.

That second case is exactly what's going on in China. Most of China makes the equivalent of between $100-$300 a month. Fortunately, so long as they don't move to the cities then their needs are met. Once they move to the cities, it depends entirely on which city they go to and what their future prospects are.

So, if some country bumpkin moves to Shanghai, the odds that he or she will be able to buy their own home within their lifetime is pretty low. Actually, that's just a fact of life in China. Most people simply can't afford to buy a new home because salaries are Chinese while prices are European. If they save enough money and combine resources with their spouses and the bank will give them a loan then they can make the purchase. That's why most of the time the parents will basically buy the new home for the newlyweds. The job of the newlyweds is to save up to buy a home for their kid(s) over the course of the next two or three decades.

But China isn't a supply/demand economy when it comes to housing. It's a command economy and the government sets the pace and the price. That's why there are ghost cities that will probably never be fully populated. By the time there are enough people willing and able to purchase those properties, said properties will have been worn down so as to make their value far less than what they're selling for. Why buy there when you can get something newer and better ? In any case, this model is exactly why China is one of the most over-valued markets in the world. Some places can't meet demand while others are sorely overbuilt. The Chinese government isn't concerned with housing nearly so much as it's concerned with propping up apparent GDP and the illusion of economic growth. The government doesn't care that nobody can afford to buy these places or that the prices are too high. What it cares about is being able to say "Invest in China. It's a guaranteed return because just look at how much construction we have going on !"

So if you want propaganda you're not going to the source.

Yujiapu will eventually fill but the error in this case was that far too much was built far too soon. Tianjin is a major Chinese office market but there's far more supply than demand warrants. Until recently this wasn't really the case and again, eventually it will all fill. The question is how long it will take for it to all fill. That will probably take decades.
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Old January 8th, 2016, 04:02 AM   #534
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Not only in China does exist a central-banking Fiat-Money-System but the whole World has this FALSE Economic System (build on Keynesianism-Ideology) which produce economic crises. Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich August von Hayek, Murray Newton Rothbard and other Philosopher of the "Austrian School of Economics" has declared, that an socialism Money System doesn´t work as well as other socialism Systems doesn´t works. If you have a corporatism system with a little bit Entrepreneurship on the one hand and on the other hand government interventions, this system will not work !!!! NEVER; NEVER ! And if you have a socialism central-banking system, it will be even worse.

Think about the US real state crisis. The same problem. central-banking socialism system has set the debt to stimulate and then, the bubble bursed.

The World should learn what is real economy. Real economy doesn´t work without individual freedom. individual freedom ist the groundwork of individual happiness and prosperity. The west tells the people, that the west is free. No, it is not. This is Ideology. The individual freedom in the west is getting lose because of the lose of the individual freedom and because of the false economic system. And the rest of the world is also not free. This is the cause of the world problems. We should listen what Ludwig von Mises has sayed to us. We should listen and learn what he has sayed why socialism never works. we should open our eyes to see, that our world doesn´t works. I mean, he was the greatest philosopher of the last century.

If we want that we don´t have economic crises, we must change the system into a system with absolutely free markets, without government interventions and listen what the philosopher of the "Austrian School of Economics" sayd how economy really works without crises. a free capitalism knows no crises. it is every time the unfree capitalism which produced the economic crises. the unfree parts are the problems, not the free parts.
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The cause of the economic crisis is the policy of cheap money. Artificially low interest rates mean a culture of debt and inflation. This follow economic collapse. The profiteers of such a system speak a you that the causes are different. But that is not correct. Ludwig von Mises understood our monetary system. But the mainstream suppressed his findings.

www.misesde.org and www.mises.com

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Old January 8th, 2016, 04:32 AM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
Propaganda ? You're confused about just who's churning out the propaganda.

Some high-demand areas of China will never seem to have enough space for either offices or residents. In other areas, the demand is there but the people simply can't afford what's being offered.

That second case is exactly what's going on in China. Most of China makes the equivalent of between $100-$300 a month. Fortunately, so long as they don't move to the cities then their needs are met. Once they move to the cities, it depends entirely on which city they go to and what their future prospects are.

So, if some country bumpkin moves to Shanghai, the odds that he or she will be able to buy their own home within their lifetime is pretty low. Actually, that's just a fact of life in China. Most people simply can't afford to buy a new home because salaries are Chinese while prices are European. If they save enough money and combine resources with their spouses and the bank will give them a loan then they can make the purchase. That's why most of the time the parents will basically buy the new home for the newlyweds. The job of the newlyweds is to save up to buy a home for their kid(s) over the course of the next two or three decades.

But China isn't a supply/demand economy when it comes to housing. It's a command economy and the government sets the pace and the price. That's why there are ghost cities that will probably never be fully populated. By the time there are enough people willing and able to purchase those properties, said properties will have been worn down so as to make their value far less than what they're selling for. Why buy there when you can get something newer and better ? In any case, this model is exactly why China is one of the most over-valued markets in the world. Some places can't meet demand while others are sorely overbuilt. The Chinese government isn't concerned with housing nearly so much as it's concerned with propping up apparent GDP and the illusion of economic growth. The government doesn't care that nobody can afford to buy these places or that the prices are too high. What it cares about is being able to say "Invest in China. It's a guaranteed return because just look at how much construction we have going on !"

So if you want propaganda you're not going to the source.

Yujiapu will eventually fill but the error in this case was that far too much was built far too soon. Tianjin is a major Chinese office market but there's far more supply than demand warrants. Until recently this wasn't really the case and again, eventually it will all fill. The question is how long it will take for it to all fill. That will probably take decades.


....All I have to say
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Old January 8th, 2016, 04:57 AM   #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legomaniac View Post


....All I have to say
Why ? Because I'm right ? Do YOU know what's going on in China ? Please, enlighten us if you think you have more knowledge and understanding. I don't think you do. The Chinese government suspended trading on the Chinese stock market after just a few minutes. You don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to how much the CCP manipulates the Chinese economy, do you ? I'm living in China and have for the past 6 years. I see first hand what you deny exists.

Last edited by Spocket; January 8th, 2016 at 08:03 AM.
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Old January 8th, 2016, 08:59 AM   #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legomaniac View Post


....All I have to say
And that's the line you picked up for


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
Propaganda ? You're confused about just who's churning out the propaganda.

Some high-demand areas of China will never seem to have enough space for either offices or residents. In other areas, the demand is there but the people simply can't afford what's being offered.

That second case is exactly what's going on in China. Most of China makes the equivalent of between $100-$300 a month. Fortunately, so long as they don't move to the cities then their needs are met. Once they move to the cities, it depends entirely on which city they go to and what their future prospects are.

So, if some country bumpkin moves to Shanghai, the odds that he or she will be able to buy their own home within their lifetime is pretty low. Actually, that's just a fact of life in China. Most people simply can't afford to buy a new home because salaries are Chinese while prices are European. If they save enough money and combine resources with their spouses and the bank will give them a loan then they can make the purchase. That's why most of the time the parents will basically buy the new home for the newlyweds. The job of the newlyweds is to save up to buy a home for their kid(s) over the course of the next two or three decades.

But China isn't a supply/demand economy when it comes to housing. It's a command economy and the government sets the pace and the price. That's why there are ghost cities that will probably never be fully populated. By the time there are enough people willing and able to purchase those properties, said properties will have been worn down so as to make their value far less than what they're selling for. Why buy there when you can get something newer and better ? In any case, this model is exactly why China is one of the most over-valued markets in the world. Some places can't meet demand while others are sorely overbuilt. The Chinese government isn't concerned with housing nearly so much as it's concerned with propping up apparent GDP and the illusion of economic growth. The government doesn't care that nobody can afford to buy these places or that the prices are too high. What it cares about is being able to say "Invest in China. It's a guaranteed return because just look at how much construction we have going on !"

So if you want propaganda you're not going to the source.

Yujiapu will eventually fill but the error in this case was that far too much was built far too soon. Tianjin is a major Chinese office market but there's far more supply than demand warrants. Until recently this wasn't really the case and again, eventually it will all fill. The question is how long it will take for it to all fill. That will probably take decades.

Now that's !!! I wish he government can sets the pace and the price for housing.

Quote:
In April, China's government made several moves to restrict housing-market speculation.

On Monday, China's housing ministry reaffirmed those moves, which included requiring higher down payments and mortgage rates for many home buyers, limiting purchases by nonresidents and accelerating construction of affordable housing. The ministry denied rumors that these measures might be canceled and said the policies are still being strictly implemented.
That was 2010

Quote:
The Chinese government is deliberately bringing down real estate prices to improve the affordability of housing and prevent the housing bubble from becoming worse. Premier Wen Jiabao said Sunday that the government had no intention of changing course.

“We would like to stress that there is no possibility of loosening the real estate policies — our target is to let the property price fall to a reasonable level,” he said.

The government has pushed up interest rates and set limits on bank lending, deliberately engineering a credit crunch with the goal of slowing inflation as well as making it harder for speculators to borrow money. The government has also limited the number of mortgages for each individual borrower, raised the down payments for mortgages to as much as 40 percent to protect the banking system from losses and begun experimenting with the introduction of real estate taxes in cities like Chongqing.
And 2011...

Quote:
A spokesperson for the Ministry of Housing and Urban-Rural Development denied recent reports in domestic media claiming the government was planning to loosen real estate policy, emphasizing that policies targeting real estate speculation and price inflation would remain in place.

A spokesman for the Ministry told China Daily that they will require relevant city governments to “rigorously implement cooling policies to contain speculative and investment purchases.”
And 2012

Quote:
Late on Friday, China’s State Council had announced a new set of policies designed to cool down the housing market.

Economic data released in the last few days has called into question the strength of China’s recovery. It may be that Beijing is so confident in the health of the economy that it can afford to squeeze the real estate sector harder. Or it may be that the government is so concerned about the social implications of a resurgent property market and the effect that real estate may have on the effort to rebalance the economy toward consumption from investment, that it is willing to take that risk.
And 2013



And yet real estate investment and housing prices just goes up and up. Because interest rate is low, and it's it hell a lot easier to put up 20 apartment buildings than open up a R&D center (which is what the government want) or fund new startup companies (which is what the government really really want).
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Old January 8th, 2016, 09:01 AM   #538
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Spocket you're talking complete piffle here mate.
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Old January 8th, 2016, 02:57 PM   #539
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And neither of you actually are bothering to figure out what your links even say right there. It's RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. YOU linked to it and yet somehow missed the pertinent information.

Who do you think it is that's spurring this speculation ? Think it's some mega-corporation that both builds and purchases the properties ? No, it's the consumer. Those laws aren't meant for the builders or the corporations, those laws are meant for YOU.

YOU can no longer buy 20 apartments. YOU can no longer get an easy loan. YOU can no longer sit on your property for decades.

Know why none of it matters ? Because the people who are buying these properties don't need loans from banks. They have enough relatives to get around the occupancy laws.

And what role does the government play in the pricing ? Well, d'uh. The Chinese government owns every square inch of land in China whether you've paid for it or not. So every year Chinese housing planners set targets for development and the orders go out. I don't mean after a market analysis, I mean the federal government in Beijing looks at how many units were bought last year and decides how much land can be freed up for redevelopment this year. Developers don't get paid based on unit sales, they get paid up front to develop the land. That's it. They can't be paid based on unit sales because the Chinese government owns it all and hasn't relinquished the title. Beijing doesn't set out to put a price tag on every apartment in China. It simply makes it so that it decides what can and can't be built. Do you not see how that is manipulation of pricing ? How is it that there can be several tens of millions of empty apartments in China but prices keep rising ? Think that that's some sort of natural reflection of fundamental laws of supply and demand ? Well, to spell it out : Too many apartments and the only body capable of doing something about this sits in Beijing. But prices keep rising. Do the math.

As for affordable housing : What's that supposed to be ? Is that housing that's subsidized by the government ? Because as near as I can tell what it really means is that after you bulldoze a village and redevelop it, you offer units in the new buildings at a discount to the people whose homes you just razed. Of course, it doesn't matter that none of them can afford to pay the difference anyway. They had homes. Now they don't...unless they have a few hundred thousand RMB stashed away in some pillowcase somewhere. So what else can they do but find some other dilapidated district to live in ? They certainly can't afford a home in the new buildings because the government gave them 100K RMB but the average price for the new units is 600K RMB. So unless Beijing is planning to simply give them a new unit in exchange for what they had, those people are stuck finding some new hovel in the ground.

Why do I even have to explain this to you genii ? You should know it all already, after all. Beijing puts a band-aid on a lost limb, it doesn't work, and you both insist that I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about.
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Old January 8th, 2016, 05:47 PM   #540
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How is it that there can be several tens of millions of empty apartments in China but prices keep rising ? T
I was under the impression these empty apartments were built in places no one wanted to live. I can't imagine any empty apartments on that scale in any of the main cities. They'd be snapped up pretty quickly.

Prices are rising, but in the main cities due to pretty obvious reasons. The prices of empty apartments themselves wouldn't be rising.

If anyone actually wants to see how much housing costs in China, visit lianjia.com. Shanghai apartments are ridiculously expensive. Everywhere else actually looks quite affordable.
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