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Old January 3rd, 2014, 04:51 PM   #481
saiho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Monorails have subway capacity........... The Sao Paulo Monorail is being built to an astounding 49,000 pphpd.
You always quote that capacity. That number assumes they run at 75 sec intervals. Which is achievable on paper but generally used in extreme cases. Chances are Sao Paulo will just run trains at every 1.5 -2 mins and be done with it, getting a capacity of 30,000-40,000 pphpd. That's not astounding at all considering now monorails are not off the shelf tech so they carry a premium in price/performance. A typical use case is a 6 car A size train running at every 2 min. That comfortably reaches 55,800 pphpd. The extreme case is an 8 car type A setup at running every 90 sec. That pushes things to 99,200 pphpd almost double monorail capacity. Will China ever reach that capacity? Maybe, but I would not be going around quoting that number.

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it has nothing to do with the technology and everything to do with the size of the station platforms.
Also saying monorails are constrained by platform sizing is a very simplistic view of capacity.

I can mirror your argument by saying bombardier ART running at 9 car long trains every 90 secs. This allows me to get insane 1337 hax0roz capacity. No system does that. Why? A subway gets the job done cheaper and better.
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Old January 3rd, 2014, 07:36 PM   #482
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How do subway and monorail compare regarding max speed and acceleration? 86 km is massive so these things really matter.
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Old January 3rd, 2014, 09:27 PM   #483
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How do subway and monorail compare regarding max speed and acceleration? 86 km is massive so these things really matter.
Urban Monorails go up to 80km/h, select Chinese subway train models go up to 120km/h.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 12:50 AM   #484
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The monorail train length and operational frequency can be adjusted to provide the desired system capacity. The operational speed of the monorail is comparable to the operational speed of most subway and metro lines between stations in densely developed areas. For lines with long stretches between stations, faster trains might be desired, but most areas with such lines are less densly developed, so an at-grade conventional rail line would probably be selected anyway.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 01:10 AM   #485
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This discussion has ventured off on tangents regarding the relative performance of the Bombardier's automated ART trains and the Bombardier monorail trains for Sao Paulo. Bombardier is now marketing both systems under the name Innovia. The following schematics provide some information on the two systems. I regret I don't have any similarly detailed schematics for the Hitachi-designed monorail trains used in Chongqing.



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Old January 4th, 2014, 01:41 AM   #486
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This discussion has ventured off on tangents regarding the relative performance of the Bombardier's automated ART trains and the Bombardier monorail trains for Sao Paulo.
No my point is any technology can have longer vehicles and closer headway to reach a desired capacity. You will reach a point where adding more cars and frequency to increase capacity of a specific technology doesn't make sense. At that point the solution is to use another, more applicable, technology.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 03:10 AM   #487
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I have no doubt that the transit planners in Chongqing (and Sao Paulo) looked at all the numbers and decided that monorail was the most applicable and cost-effective technology for the lines for which monorail was chosen.

The usual gripe with monorail is that the technology is proprietary. Each manufacturer builds vehicles that require a unique set of clearances and a unique guideway beam configuration. The speed and capacity of monorail are generally not major issues.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 04:54 AM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
I have no doubt that the transit planners in Chongqing (and Sao Paulo) looked at all the numbers and decided that monorail was the most applicable and cost-effective technology for the lines for which monorail was chosen.

The usual gripe with monorail is that the technology is proprietary. Each manufacturer builds vehicles that require a unique set of clearances and a unique guideway beam configuration. The speed and capacity of monorail are generally not major issues.
Like I said river lines like 2 and 3 are fine for monorails but if I had to pick monorail or Type A subway train I'd go with the latter.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 11:58 AM   #489
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How do subway and monorail compare regarding max speed and acceleration? 86 km is massive so these things really matter.
Metro Line 6 has a planned distance of 86kms? Is that the distance from one side of the city to the other? Or simply the distance from the city center to an outlying area? Exactly how far are the outlying areas from the CBD?
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Old January 4th, 2014, 04:17 PM   #490
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Quote:
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Like I said river lines like 2 and 3 are fine for monorails but if I had to pick monorail or Type A subway train I'd go with the latter.
If I had to choose between a monorail with a view of the city and a subway train with a view of a hole, I'd choose the monorail.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 05:59 PM   #491
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Quote:
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If I had to choose between a monorail with a view of the city and a subway train with a view of a hole, I'd choose the monorail.
If I had to choose whether I would prefer to live looking out over a monorail (with people looking into my house all day), or have a subway running beneath the street, I'd choose the subway.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 09:15 PM   #492
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Metro Line 6 has a planned distance of 86kms? Is that the distance from one side of the city to the other? Or simply the distance from the city center to an outlying area? Exactly how far are the outlying areas from the CBD?
Ya its a cross city line, from one side of Chongqing to the other but it has 2 branches so its not as long as it sounds.

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If I had to choose between a monorail with a view of the city and a subway train with a view of a hole, I'd choose the monorail.
If I had a higher order transit line to plan, I would pick the the technology that fits the topography, usage and capacity of the area into context.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 10:43 PM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Ya its a cross city line, from one side of Chongqing to the other but it has 2 branches so its not as long as it sounds.
Line 6 will run from Chayuan to Beibei, with a branch from Lijia to Shaheba and an extension from Chayuan to Yinhu, totalling 86 km and 53 stops, two of them named 曹家湾 Caojiawan! But wait until Guangzhou line 14 is completed at its full extent, it will stretch for 92 km! And luckily they split the Knowledge City branch away. And at one point, Shanghai line 11 was planned to be over 120 km long!
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Old January 5th, 2014, 12:09 AM   #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
If I had to choose whether I would prefer to live looking out over a monorail (with people looking into my house all day), or have a subway running beneath the street, I'd choose the subway.
Elevated transit lines in general are not suitable for everywhere. You wouldn't run one through an historic district, such as exists in the middle of many European cities.
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Old January 5th, 2014, 05:31 PM   #495
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Why not? Look at Paris metro line 6.
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Old January 6th, 2014, 02:09 AM   #496
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Yeah, Paris Line 6 goes up the middle of a wide boulevard. Thanks to the width of the boulevard, it doesn't overwhelm the old buildings on either side.



Loss of privacy due to transit passengers looking into apartment windows is an issue, but the reality is that apartment residents on opposite sides of the street already have a view into each other's windows.
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Old January 6th, 2014, 07:36 AM   #497
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Chongqing metro 2014 openings

4 sections will open in 2014.
  • Line 1 extension, 1.9km, 1 station
  • Line 2 extension, 12km, 4 stations
  • Line 6 phase I Wulidian-Shangxinjie, 4.7km, 4 stations
  • Line 6 phase II Shangxinjie-Chayuan, 12km, 7 stations

by 重庆轨道交通
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Old January 9th, 2014, 12:19 AM   #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
Yeah, Paris Line 6 goes up the middle of a wide boulevard. Thanks to the width of the boulevard, it doesn't overwhelm the old buildings on either side.



Loss of privacy due to transit passengers looking into apartment windows is an issue, but the reality is that apartment residents on opposite sides of the street already have a view into each other's windows.
I think this is a non-issue. Get some transparent curtain if the metro bothers your privacy. I would be more concerned about the noise. But here again, I don't think metro is a big issue here, rather the big boulevard below and its car traffic. This can be a real problem.

In Vienna you have the U6 along the Westgürtel also elevated. And here the whole road went into brutal urban decline in the 20th century because of the traffic noise. It is still in the process of recovering from that.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 01:49 AM   #499
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I remember discussing Bangkok's Skytrain with a friend who lived there. He said his relatives liked having the rail viaduct over the street because they preferred to drive in the shade.

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Old January 9th, 2014, 07:20 AM   #500
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I remember discussing Bangkok's Skytrain with a friend who lived there. He said his relatives liked having the rail viaduct over the street because they preferred to drive in the shade.

I read online that the proposed Phrase 2 of the Skytrain has been cancelled, there is nothing on this forum so can you confirm the status of Phrase 2 one way or the other?
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