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Old June 10th, 2005, 07:26 PM   #221
Steely Dan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumie
a school for many reasons needs its own presence.
why?
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Old June 10th, 2005, 07:40 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumie
This alteration stinks to high heaven, placing future developer promises in jeopardy. As a teacher of some 44 years, a school for many reasons needs its own presence. If the mayor had reneged on this school plan, the Chicago press would be spluttering their customary righteous indignation, it's what sells their third rate product.
I guess I would agree that a school at the base of a large residential tower may not be the greatest idea. There is plenty of room behind The Shorham to place a school. The idea is to get it out of the park.
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Old June 10th, 2005, 07:48 PM   #223
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I thought having it in the park was a fantastic idea. Imagine how overjoyed some stay-at-home parents would be at the thought of looking out their window and being able to watch their children throughout the school day!

Now, whether or not you want Mrs. Jones running downstairs every time Bobby throws sand in Johnny's face is a completely different story. But, I think it would be a great selling point nonetheless.
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Old June 10th, 2005, 10:11 PM   #224
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there so close to the park that im shure theyll be frequenting the park often enough
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Old June 10th, 2005, 10:45 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_diamond
I thought having it in the park was a fantastic idea. Imagine how overjoyed some stay-at-home parents would be at the thought of looking out their window and being able to watch their children throughout the school day!

Now, whether or not you want Mrs. Jones running downstairs every time Bobby throws sand in Johnny's face is a completely different story. But, I think it would be a great selling point nonetheless.
People don't live that way in the city. We take our dogs out for a walk. We don't open the door and say go pee dog. We also take the kids out to play. Again...we don't open up the back door and say go play kids. Just a different lifestyle in the denser areas than out in suburbia or spread out Chicago neighborhoods.
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Old June 11th, 2005, 12:39 AM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptent
why?
School, Home, Church, Synagogue, etc. all "places" so much unto themselves as to resist blending. When a child leaves home each day to go to "school" it is a special and distinct destination. For the child it is the first break from home, the first rite of passage, as it were. A "place" where friendships will be formed beyond the family or the kid next door. There is the special relationship that develops with the "teacher," the next deeply involved adult in the child's life after the parents. Navigating the "space" between school and home is its own adventure. Once inside the school, a sequence of physical "spaces" and "places" will become the settings for life-forming physical, emotional, and pedagogical experiences. Note I'm speaking only about the sense of a school's "presence" as the theatre for education, and leaving to the side the myriad of educational issues to be impacted by its loss. I don't think going downstairs really cuts it. Now, it might be possible to replicate all this psychologically, socially, and educationally in an apartment building, but I'm very skeptical.

P.S. As for the develper reneging on his promise, it has always been the way of the powerful to get where they want to get to by riding on the backs of school children. Since I've lived in this state they passed a state sales tax, state income tax, and lottery all on the promise of solving once and for all the school funding problems. In the end, all those funds were diverted to the more highly placed interests, the big donors who influence elections. Just to cover myself, I'm concluding with the rant emoticon.

Last edited by Frumie; June 11th, 2005 at 03:15 AM.
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Old June 11th, 2005, 07:36 AM   #227
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^Interesting.

I would have to agree. Just as most people wouldn't think of placing a house of worship in the base of a building, I also think a school shouldn't be.

A school is like a community center, it is a valuable and important place, and it represents learning, rite of passage, and the future. It should be given the dignity of having its own building. Just my opinion, though...
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Old June 11th, 2005, 09:27 AM   #228
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^ i think that having a grammar school as part of a mixed use building would be pretty cool. i don't buy this "stand alone" theory. i just don't.

and thank god that the school has been taken out of the park. there lots of room for it elsewhere within LSE.
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Old June 11th, 2005, 03:19 PM   #229
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interesting conversation on the school. what do you folks think the market place will be like? On the new map, it appears bigger than I thought it was going to be. Do you see this as a general downtown attraction or one that is mainly going to cater to the LSE community. I would think the former; the high end stores geared to the prices of LSE condos and town houses will be an attraction for others. I would imagine that you'd have some sort of competiton for Fox & Obel, even though they'd be less than a mile apart.
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Old June 11th, 2005, 05:59 PM   #230
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Quote:
People don't live that way in the city. We take our dogs out for a walk. We don't open the door and say go pee dog. We also take the kids out to play. Again...we don't open up the back door and say go play kids. Just a different lifestyle in the denser areas than out in suburbia or spread out Chicago neighborhoods.
I would love to believe that. And it's true, REAL city people don't live that way; but the metranite transplants who are trying to make a go of it in the City because it's the hip thing to do this week are certainly capable of bringing their "let the dog out, wave to the kids while they get on the bus" mentality with them. While I have the utmost respect for people who don't buy into the whole "you must live in suburbia if you have kids" theory, I still feel like Lakeshore East is a pretty suburban development - Chicago's very own gated community. These people are hardly jumping in with both feet and I certainly don't expect them to think and act like TRUE city-folk.
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Old June 11th, 2005, 08:25 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_diamond
I would love to believe that. And it's true, REAL city people don't live that way; but the metranite transplants who are trying to make a go of it in the City because it's the hip thing to do this week are certainly capable of bringing their "let the dog out, wave to the kids while they get on the bus" mentality with them. While I have the utmost respect for people who don't buy into the whole "you must live in suburbia if you have kids" theory, I still feel like Lakeshore East is a pretty suburban development - Chicago's very own gated community. These people are hardly jumping in with both feet and I certainly don't expect them to think and act like TRUE city-folk.
But you seem to have the misperception that having kids, walking around the park with them, and not being hip is somehow suburban. That is a misnomer, if you ask me. Urban has only recently represented "hipness" and "diversity" because in the past 50 years, "unhip white families" have fled the city for boonie-land suburbia. "hipness" doesn't define urban. Actually, attracting family-minded people of good income and providing a school for their kids' education is very good for the city--it needs more of this.

And this whole "gated community" business is overrated. Gated communities used to mean that a community had a huge fence around it, and only cars with ID cards could get in. Now it seems like you guys want to label everything as somewhat exclusive and rich as a "gated community". LSE will likely have a well-off population, but cities have had exclusive hoods like that since the beginning of time.

LSE is suburban? Please! Numerous highrises, walkability, townhomes, a park, large stores and shops, a school, a community center, office space, likely bus service, etc etc all in just 60 or so acres? Give me a break, my friend....
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Old June 12th, 2005, 12:23 AM   #232
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LSE still bares similarity to any suburban subdivision for one reason, it's not natural. Urban to me at least, means something organic, something created by many people, and infinite interactions and relationships, and not just one developer and his master planner. LSE is not authentic the same way other neighborhoods are, and there is nothing we can really do about that because it isn't in the interest of the consumer or the seller. When we say LSE is suburban, i think I and many others mean it in that sense.
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Old June 12th, 2005, 06:25 AM   #233
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Agreed ThirdCoast. I never meant to say that LSE was suburban because it wasn't dense or because there was nothing to do - I think we all know that simply isn't true. It is suburban, however, in its appeal. The aim of having the school in the middle of the park was simply to draw "family types" back to the City, or to keep them from fleeing in the first place. Until it becomes commonplace, however, for people to remain in the City when the baby-machine starts running, I will always say that family-oriented development is, in some sense, a slice of suburbia. You can't tell me that you view LSE as an integrated part of the whole of downtown - if you really believe that, then I strongly suggest you pay closer attention to it on your next visit. It is VERY isolated and very "gated" - even if only psychologically.
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Old June 12th, 2005, 09:21 AM   #234
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"Until it becomes commonplace, however, for people to remain in the City when the baby-machine starts running, I will always say that family-oriented development is, in some sense, a slice of suburbia."

What? That's insane. A city needs families and children and all that in order to be a truly complete place to live. As a young person, I wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood that was entirely young people. They're not nearly as cool or interesting as they think they are.

The "gated community" argument has slightly more merit, I think, but in another sense a lot of Chicago communities are pretty self-enclosed, and I think it'll probably be only a matter of time before outsiders start to go to LSE for retail and entertainment needs, making it more integrated with the city.
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Old June 12th, 2005, 05:02 PM   #235
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you guys have me in tears. doesn't anyone want to discuss the marketplace (or am I the only one guilty of crass commericalism)????????

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Old June 12th, 2005, 06:15 PM   #236
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I'd love to discuss the marketplace, but, I have to win this argument first

I never said that the city didn't need families and children... I'm not sure how you even arrived at that conclusion from what I wrote. What I would like, is for people to be willing to raise their children in the City as it is - without the need for gimmicks (i.e. a school in right in front of the condo). Of course, that's not the City's fault, but, rather the mentality of people. The way to fix it, however, is not by catering to what these people want, but by showing them that raising kids in a traditional (not guarded) urban environment is the best thing you could ever do for them. I just don't want to see the children of LSE stuck in their neighborhood like it was Joliet - they should be allowed to be out and about and going to a school that's not right across the street.
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Old June 12th, 2005, 08:23 PM   #237
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ok, geoff, but i'm holding you to your commitment!
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Old June 13th, 2005, 12:15 AM   #238
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rofl
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Old June 13th, 2005, 01:18 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_diamond
I'd love to discuss the marketplace, but, I have to win this argument first

I never said that the city didn't need families and children... I'm not sure how you even arrived at that conclusion from what I wrote. What I would like, is for people to be willing to raise their children in the City as it is - without the need for gimmicks (i.e. a school in right in front of the condo). Of course, that's not the City's fault, but, rather the mentality of people. The way to fix it, however, is not by catering to what these people want, but by showing them that raising kids in a traditional (not guarded) urban environment is the best thing you could ever do for them. I just don't want to see the children of LSE stuck in their neighborhood like it was Joliet - they should be allowed to be out and about and going to a school that's not right across the street.

Isn't it just a grade school up to 5th grade? C'mon man, its not a big deal that 5-11 year olds will have a school in their neighborhood, when they go on to middle and highschool they'll have plenty of freedom.
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Old June 13th, 2005, 06:54 AM   #240
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A school in the neighborhood is one thing; hell, all of Chicago's public schools are set in neighborhoods. A school that is placed smack in the middle of a park so parents can keep an eye out is a whole different ball game. I know I have the unpopular opinion on this one, it just rubs me the wrong way for some reason.
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