Klang Valley MRT Line 1 (Sungai Buloh-Kajang Line) | Lenght: 51km | 31 stations |Completion: 2017

[kl 2020 ideas]

Originally Posted by patchay

Last week was my first week working from this area and I can tell you the office crowd having lunch at 1Utama is awesome.

The working population is there to sustain the MRT station. But problem is the offices are mainly towards Sri Pentas TV3 and One World Hotel. Oh btw rows of Mercedes lined up at the Hotel almost every working day, so much so I bumped into Jamaluddin Jarjis our Ambassador to USA.

How lucky of you.

[idiamindada]

Originally Posted by allurban

that must be sarcasm .... right?

I mean, there is a whole laundry list of reasons why the originally proposed location is not the greatest.... not all of them compute, but it's a long list

Cheers, m

too close with Sri Pentas will only cater 1 type of movers. office workers.

too far, the we might lose them.

too close with OU new wing will only cater another type of passengers. shoppers.

emmm….looking forward to see a really creative solution for this.

[allurban]

Originally Posted by idiamindada

too close with Sri Pentas will only cater 1 type of movers. office workers.

too far, the we might lose them.

too close with OU new wing will only cater another type of passengers. shoppers.

emmm….looking forward to see a really creative solution for this.

Proposed location: The current proposed location of the Bandar Utama MRT station is roughly between the LDP highway and the trees on the far right to the east of 1 Utama mall. — Pictures by Choo Choy May



Alternative location: Ample land to the west of 1 Utama mall 1km from the proposed MRT station, where a large car park and a growing bus hub is located.



hmmm...I know trees can grow back fast, but now I'm thinking that it would be sad to have to cut down some of those trees to construct an MRT station - but then, even construction of the guideway means losing some trees.

I guess there is another solution... put it in between, right at the interchange - but then you attract a different type of passenger - ppl who will pay MRT fare so they can to stare at the customers of Celebrity Fitness.

~m!

[allurban]

Originally Posted by patchay

Last week was my first week working from this area and I can tell you the office crowd having lunch at 1Utama is awesome.

The working population is there to sustain the MRT station. But problem is the offices are mainly towards Sri Pentas TV3 and One World Hotel. Oh btw rows of Mercedes lined up at the Hotel almost every working day, so much so I bumped into Jamaluddin Jarjis our Ambassador to USA.

I guess the big question is, how to get the working population to the south side near TV3 to walk up to the north side? Walkway through the mall should not be terrible - many ppl walk similar distances and there will certainly be shops & restaurants ready to catch their attention.

building offices on the north side would also help to make a difference to attract people to move all the way through.

What about shifting the driving range closer to 1Utama, shifting the "The Curve" station a little further to the east, and build a new bus hub at the extreme north end there - then keep the original proposed 1 Utama station location...but please call it Bandar Utama!

Oh, and please build an elevated roundabout interchange over the LDP where it meets Pers. Surian. Elevated roundabout interchanges are fun! And Pers. Surian needs the connection.

Cheers, m

[idiamindada]

if there's going to be a bus hub and the location is already fixed (for the bus hub) then like it or not, MRT station MUST be close to it…..

feeder bus can serve TV3 workers from the MRT station to Sri Pentas.

but i tot there's also going to be The Curve MRT….

emmm….

[TWK90]

Originally Posted by allurban

hmmm...I know trees can grow back fast, but now I'm thinking that it would be sad to have to cut down some of those trees to construct an MRT station - but then, even construction of the guideway means losing some trees.

I guess there is another solution... put it in between, right at the interchange - but then you attract a different type of passenger - ppl who will pay MRT fare so they can to stare at the customers of Celebrity Fitness.

~m!

Trees can be transplanted to other site while construction just as is being done during the construction of Hong Kong high speed rail terminal.

[TWK90]

Originally Posted by allurban

I guess the big question is, how to get the working population to the south side near TV3 to walk up to the north side? Walkway through the mall should not be terrible - many ppl walk similar distances and there will certainly be shops & restaurants ready to catch their attention.

building offices on the north side would also help to make a difference to attract people to move all the way through.

What about shifting the driving range closer to 1Utama, shifting the "The Curve" station a little further to the east, and build a new bus hub at the extreme north end there - then keep the original proposed 1 Utama station location...but please call it Bandar Utama!

Oh, and please build an elevated roundabout interchange over the LDP where it meets Pers. Surian. Elevated roundabout interchanges are fun! And Pers. Surian needs the connection.

Cheers, m

I don't think the distance from the MRT station, if it is on the existing open-air car park lot to offices would be a deterrent, because during lunch time, many office workers are having lunch in new wing apart from old wing, that means, in this case, it should not be a problem.

Locating the station closer to the existing bus hub is crucial.

[patchay]

I spoken to a dude working on dat Mid Valley Expo that day.

He said "Oh wah need to acquire land, so MRT at Central Park is not possible."

However, we read in the newspaper that SHC is ready to negotiate with the Govt for their land. So I think the only problem is "price for the land" and each others ultimate interest. Good thing about integration there. Well I see the workers need to walk equally as long fom station to Surian Tower and from station to One World Hotel.

One question issit hard to build a station where the line seems curving/turning from Persiaran Surian into LDP?

If that's the case, they told me a station at Uptown is impossible due to narrow space for the elevated tracks to curve in front of Tropicana City.

[Simonous]

Should We Ask Singapore to Help Us Construct the MRT Line?

When the MRT proposal was first released, I am in general supportive of the deal. The idea of having a MRT line is great. Plus, I have done some calculation, the project cost seems to be in line with the cost of constructing the MRT in other countries. The initial estimate by MMC-Gamuda, although slightly more expensive, it is still within the ball park range. Then, today, newspaper said that the line would cost much more, almost 50% more. Now, our MRT line is not slightly more expensive, it is very very expensive. I am talking about the cost of Sg.Buloh-Kajang line, as the details of other line have not been released yet, so it would be quite stupid and silly to estimate the cost as we do not know how much of the rest of the line would be underground, like our friends in CIMB just did.


First, let's look at what CIMB said about the proposal since they are the only documents that I have on hand that talk about the Pasarana's MRT briefing in details.



As mentioned in the CIMB report, the cost of the line has gone up by nearly RM6b or 50% more than the initial estimates. The analyst explain the price hike as caused by inflation. Very clever. In less than 2 years, price increase by 50% or an inflation rate of around 25% ( arithmetic average). If the cost of construction materials really increase at 25% per annum, a lot of our property and construction players would be in a loss-making position. Property prices, across the country (not in selected spot), would have gone up by 50%. Did we see that type of increase? I don't think so. Assuming the analyst is correct, at a 25% per annum inflation rate going forward, the final cost of the MRT project would be staggering. 25% per annum inflation basically means that the cost will double in slightly less than 3 years. Our MRT is a ten year project, so, within the time frame of the project, the cost will be more than 8x the original estimate or around RM290b. He is not surprised, I wonder what will make him surprised. Plus, the engineers and QS in MMC-Gamuda are very smart people too, they make projections without considering inflation. Or did these people purposely understate the price to get buy in from government, then only tell the government that the actual cost of the line? If that is the case, it makes our government looks quite stupid.


I am comparing our cost with the recent MRT line with that of the recently completed circle line in Singapore. I am not comparing with China because it would make the Singapore line looks expensive and our Klang Valley MRT ridiculously expensive. Let's just says that China are constructing their MRT lines at a tiny fraction of the cost of our Klang Valley MRT. Perhaps I should, since we are paying our Bangladeshi workers similar wages as the Chinese paid their construction workers. But, China is having at least 15 subway lines being built simultaneously, so, they probably would have some economies of scale there.


Singapore completed their circle line last year at a cost of SGD10b. It is 35.7km fully underground line. According to Prasarana CEO, an underground portion cost 5-10x more than the elevated portion of the line. So, I will take 5x as benchmark, that is, I make the Singapore line looks more expensive although the estimates coming out indicate that the underground portion is 10x more expensive. Who is doing the underground portion? Haha..you know what I am thinking right. So, at SGD10b for 35.7km, we will get a cost of RM669m/km for underground and RM133m/km for the elevated section. So, the Sg.Buloh to Kajang line cost RM11b if we use Singapore circle line cost as benchmark. It seems that kiasuland can build their MRT almost 40% cheaper than boleh land even though their engineers and their Bangladeshi workers are paid at least twice as much as Malaysia paid our engineers and Bangladeshi workers.


A little bit background on the Circle Line, the SGD 10b construction includes cost overuns. The intial cost is just SGD6.7b. This is uncharacteristic of a Singapore public project as they normally complete their project below the initial estimate and yet, our Klang Valley MRT line costs 60% more on per-km basis. I wonder whether our Malaysian geography is so different than Singapore that it cost 60% more. In addition, the Circle line construction faces quite a lot of problems. It was constructed at the same time as the two Integrated Resorts. At that time, Singapore faces a shortage of constructions workers, so construction cost skyrocketed. Furthermore, at that time, Singapore faces a shortage of sands as they manage to piss off a few of their neighbors including Malaysia. So, no one are selling sands to them. Even Genting Singapore construction is delayed even though they sign an exclusive agreement with the Singapore arm of YTL Cement to ensure fixed supply. LVS do not have this sort of agreement and causes them to open much later than Genting Singapore. The shortage of sands is so acute that most Singapore property built on that period uses glass to replace wall to cut cost. A construction project in my university was delayed to ease the demand for construction workers and sands. The circle line also faces problem in the form of part of the section of the tunnel collapsed, causing delays and re-alignment midway through the project. With all these problems happening during the time of the project, their final cost is still 60% cheaper than our MRT cost at planning stage. I wonder how come our MRT line is so expensive? Should we just tell the people that construct the Singapore MRT to help us construct our MRT then? I think their MRT is built by some Japanese firm, so, there are no question of political feasibility. The old man like to look east, so, he won't make noise.


The complains about the line recently is mostly about the placement of the stations. But, the press painted them as these people do not want the MRT line at all. They make it a rich versus poor thing. We are already being segregated based on race and religion, now they want to separate us based on wealth. Banyak pandai punya media. These people are basically complaining about the placement of the stations, the implementation of the project. They do not say that they want to cancel the project. In fact, some of the station placement is so poor that it is laughable. Based on their maps, one station in the so-called "poor" part painted by the media is actually place after a toll and it is a park and ride facilities. So, if I am a resident of nearby Taman, I want to take MRT to work, I need to pay toll to access the station. Unless they want to buy up the entire residential estate that is situated behind the station, I do not think the residents in that area can access the station without paying toll. A few hundreds meters down the line, there is a decent patch of land that avoid the toll. Very clever indeed.


They said that the tunneling works would be based on open tender basis. But, the devil is in the details, it may be that the details will favour a MMC-Gamuda bid. By the way, since when does a company that have only dug two tunnels in their entire life can be considered an experienced player? Hmm, you mean those Chinese firms that have 60 TBMs working on a single subway line should be considered grand master? Do we want a grand master to build our underground portion or you want an experienced player with 2 tunnels under their belt? Would it be better for our companies to learn from these grand master and hold minority stake in the project. Next time, with these knowledge, they can go to India or Africa and win tunneling project.


So macam mana?


Extracted from : http://goodstockbadstock.blogspot.co....html#comments

Which i found it quite true!!

[tomkat]

[QUOTE=Simonous;74216620]Do we want a grand master to build our underground portion or you want an experienced player with 2 tunnels under their belt? Would it be better for our companies to learn from these grand master and hold minority stake in the project. Next time, with these knowledge, they can go to India or Africa and win tunneling project.


Extracted from : http://goodstockbadstock.blogspot.co....html#comments

QUOTE]

How can they win tunneling project overseas when people are skeptical about their performance in home ground?

[mrtfreak]

I think the poster is a bit off on some information... The S$10b is for the main Singapore Circle Line which is 33km with 29 stations. A branch extension is being built which I don't think is included in the S$10b price tag. Secondly, the line is still not completed yet. We have another stretch opening in October completing the western arc consisting of 12 stations and the extension opens next year. Thirdly, we didn't have walls made out of glass. That's not possible... Glass cannot replace concrete as a structural material. And if I'm not wrong, the "sand ban" was not a result of the country "pissing off" neighbours.

Tomkat raises a good question though. This would present a good opportunity for Gamuda-MMC to learn different techniques of tunnel construction in different settings. Previously they did tunnels under hill terrain, but this presents an urban landscape. Stacked tunnels would also pose a challenge to them that they can learn from.

[Simonous]

Just pray for the cost not deviated much from the initial RM50b estimated..

The estimated cost for the whole circle line would be at approximately $10b from stage 1 to stage 5, whole stretch would be of 35.7km.

$10b dollar would be translated to RM 25b approximate.

With abundant of construction material available in msia compared to our peers, i can foreseen a cheaper construction price tag of our mrt line with only a fraction will be gone underground.

Therefore, i estimated the underground portion for Sungai Buloh - Kajalng MRT line would be of RM 7-8 billion benchmarking Singapore Circle Line. The elevated part to be of another RM 7 -8 billion, therefore the Sungai Buloh - Kajang MRT line would be at RM 14-16 billion. Nonetheless, preliminary cost and construction cost in msia would be cheaper compared to Singapore. So the RM 14-16 billion is quite a pessimistic estimate.

Cost of aquisition in msia would be cheaper compared to Singapore which is another added advantage for msia to keep project cost at minimal.

Anyway, we should put faith on mmc-gamuda to build the underground tunnel part if only their price is competitive enough.

[constipation]

As i said previously, if this project is cost overrun then build one line first(SGB-KJ) is fine for KV folk at the moment, for the circle line n 3rd can build later till government really hv sufficient budget. Besides that, the extension LRT will take place by this month which will provide another new 24 stations by 2014. By 2016 we'll hv roughly about 24+48+35=107 stations lrt n mrt. I think thats enough already..

[mrtfreak]

Originally Posted by Simonous

Just pray for the cost not deviated much from the initial RM50b estimated..

The estimated cost for the whole circle line would be at approximately $10b from stage 1 to stage 5, whole stretch would be of 35.7km.

Stage 1 through 5 is only 33km, which should push up the cost per km marginally. Stages 1 through 3 are in operation already, while the remaining two are not. Not sure if it will incurr extra costs as a result, on top of the extra S$4b which has already been mentioned.

As a whole, the project needs to be managed well is all. If Delhi can do it, I suppose with the right people in charge, Malaysia can too. Delhi's metro came in on time and under budget. So that would be a good inspiration. A cost breakdown would be good if made public as well.

[patchay]

Sorry guys...

The Star has reported the line could cost over RM57 billion.

Some analysts are expecting it to over RM60 billion if the price of oil shoots up above $120.

And dont forget, all these are projected amount at planning stage. Remember the project will go on over at least 5 years, when we can never predict any circumstances during that time.

Furthermore, TTDI residents want SPAD to acquire the MRT-fronting homes, and a check at The Star Classified tells me a basic intermediate TTDI double-storey homes cost approximately from RM1.05 million onwards each. REMEMBER: Inflation is now inching upwards on a weekly basis due to OIL< LIBYA< MIDDLE EAST and now JAPAN.

Good Luck


(oh btw, if I'm the auditor for MMC-Gamuda JV Sdn Bhd I would definitely raise the audit fees by 20% now, since The Star had reported so. All the legal, auditing, professional, consultancy, surveying, contracting, procurement and management fees would probably go up like mad and this has to be part of the MRT cost as well Not forgetting Malaysian staffs are no longer cheap labour, plus all their exorbitant claims, reimbursements, kopi money, etc etc etc....)

[idiamindada]

Plz cut the crap.

The SPAD already appointed 3rd party consultant for the job, McKinsey.

[idiamindada]

why on earth no one posting this?

---------------

McKinsey appointed consultant for MRT

BY RISEN JAYASEELAN and THEAN LEE CHENG
starbiz@thestar.com.my


It will carry out value management study of the project

PETALING JAYA: McKinsey & Co has been hired as consultants to carry out the value management study (VMS) on the mass rapid transit (MRT) project.

This was revealed by Azmi Abdul Aziz, the chief development officer of Public Land Transport Commission (SPAD) in his presentation at the Greater KL: Smart City of The Future Conference on Monday.

The VMS is an important element in SPAD's plan to ensure that the MRT is carried out in the most cost-efficient way.

“The (MRT) project on its own is not viable but this is not something new. It is proven in the experience of other countries,” Azmi said. “So we are putting in efforts to ensure that the construction cost is minimised. Part of that effort is the engagement of McKinsey for work on the VMS.”

“We will be looking at land development and property development to help bring down the cost. It will be a rail-plus-property project.


“We will have fare and non-fare income from things like advertising and will ensure the maintenance cost is kept at optimum levels,” he said.

In an earlier interview with StarBiz, SPAD chief executive Mohd Nur Ismal Kamal had explained: “One interesting mechanism being used for the MRT project is the VMS, where an independent party will scrutinise the project plans and ensure that the optimum value is derived.”

He also said the VMS will help decide the selection of the proposed alignment and station locations to “make cost most effective” but at the same time, also consider the factor of helping unlock the full potential of real estate values in locations where the stations are located.

“The VMS will also design a procurement policy which will ensure cost savings and prevent any extravagant spending,” Mohd Nur said.

Another aspect of the VMS is that it will help with the early identification of non-fare box revenue.

“Such revenue will include rental or sale of property surrounding stations which can significantly contribute to future expansion of the network and system maintenance and upgrades.

“This kind of practice is again not new. About one third of the revenue of Hong Kong's Mass Transit Rail system is not from ticket sales, while in Tokyo the non-fare revenue is as high as 80%,” Mohd Nur told StarBiz.

“With all these steps being taken by the Government, it is hoped that the MRT project will delivered to the rakyat on time for them to enjoy its full benefits at the lowest possible cost,” he said.

[Jambol]

The Spore's Circle Line is more expensive due to some of these reasons:

a) Not all, but quite a handful of the stations (about slightly less than half, I did not count) are civil defence stations. Such stations are built to double as shelters up to keep people in during war times. These stations are built with thicker walls and strong reinforcements (of up to 2m thick walls) which translate to high costs of materials. Since KVMRT does not need such features, ours should not have such thick walls/steel and should be cheaper.

b) When Nicoll Highway station collapsed due to the temporary works system, the entire temporary works system for the line was reviewed. The result was the temporary works for some stations of Stage 2 had to be cover back and re-done; and these added to the cost.


For all underground stations and tunnelling works (as those in Singapore), what's very important is the type of soil which one has to work in. That is to say, if you tunnel in soft or bad soil, you will need a certain method/machine/technology which will add cost. SOmetimes, you may hit a boulder and that also add cost. In Singapore, I understand that the authorities have been testing the soil along the route to ascertain the type of soil and hence the most economical route (which translate to estimated cost fo project). Did our SPAD or Gamuda-MMC did any of such?

I hate to repeat this fact: The Singapore land authority painstakingly plan the routes/possible alignment knowing exactly which properties are required to be acquired; and yet the decision is still the most cost-effective plan. And their government has such good city planning that they reserve plots of lands for such exact reason for future lines. I hope, but I really don't think such preparation is done for the KL's 2nd or 3rd line?

In conclusion, did KVMRT did all the necessary preparatory works to get the best alignment, and at the same time, cheapest to be constructed?

[mrtfreak]

Originally Posted by idiamindada

why on earth no one posting this?

Here's why.

[idiamindada]

ok, thanks