The Lost Vedic River Sarasvati

[skganji]

The official Mainstream theory is that Indo-aryans and Persians lived together in Central Europe before some of them migrated to India and some to Persia ( Iran). Further more, these people are nomadic tribes who brought aryan languages to Iran and India respectively by 1500 B.C and composed Rigveda in Saptha Sindhu area glorifying a dried up river Sarasvati . This theory is seriously disagreed by serious sanskritists and people who thoroughly understood Rigveda. As you can see from Rigveda, persian and parthians who fought collectively together against the puru King Sudas were actually natives of Saptha Sindhu region. This is really complicated if some body doesn't understand why Rigvedic Aryans fought against Dasyus . Especially Shrikant Talageri has nicely explained who these ten tribes were and who fought against the puru king Sudas. As per Rig Veda only purus are the Aryans . In short, the Dasyus were residents of the Parsuni river. See the map of Sapth Sindhu to see the exact location of Parsuni river. Now after the battle of ten kings ( Dasarjna battle) the Anus gradually moved out of Saptha Sindhu and eventually settled in Iran and some parts of Central Asia.
Now this is what the RigVeda has to say about Parsava, Parthians. However, it would be really nice to authenticate that with inscriptional evidence and archeaological evidence. I think this inscription at Behistun is a good evidence to see the connections between Rigveda and Avesta. I hope I am making some sense here.

Battle of Ten Kings.
More details about battle of ten kings can be found here. The details are confusing however, and we may need to look at the actual Rigvedic verses to understand how this battle is described.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings

7.33.3

एवेन नु कं सिन्धुमेभिस्ततारेवेन नु कं भेदमेभिर्जघान |
एवेन नु कं दाशराज्ञे सुदासं परावदिन्द्रो बरह्मणा वो वसिष्ठाः ||

synonyms : सिन्धु - river, तारेवेन - cross eagerly, भेद - King Beda, भर्जन - annihilating, दाशराज्ञे - Ten kings , बरह्मणा - Sage, वसिष्ठाः - Vasistha

So, verily, with these he crossed the river, in company with these he slaughtered Bheda.
So in the fight with the Ten Kings, Vasisthas! did Indra help Sudās through your devotions.



7.33.5
उद दयामिवेत तर्ष्णजो नाथितासो.अदीधयुर्दाशराज्ञे वर्तासः |
वसिष्ठस्य सतुवत इन्द्रो अश्रोदुरुं तर्त्सुभ्यो अक्र्णोदु लोकम ||

synonyms : र्दाशराज्ञे - Ten Kings, वसिष्ठस्य - Of Sage Vasistha, सतुवत - Prayers , इन्द्रो - Heavenly God Indra, तर्त्सु -Trtsus


Translation : Like thirsty men they looked to heaven, in battle with the Ten Kings, surrounded and imploring.
Then Indra heard Vasiṣṭha as he praised him, and gave the Trtsus ample room and freedom


The Battle of the Ten Kings (IAST|dāśarājñá) is a battle alluded to in Mandala 7 of the Rigveda (hymns 18, 33 and 83.4-8). It is a battle between Aryans (an "internecine war" - Mutually destructive, as the 1911 Britannica puts it, as opposed to the more frequent accounts of Aryans fighting Dasyus), taking place as Puru tribes, allied with other tribes of the Punjab and goaded ( encouraged) by the royal sage Vishvamitra, invade the country of the Trtsu (Bharata) king Sudas, and are defeated in an epic battle through the inspired power of the priestly sage Vasishtha, the composer of the hymns. Karl Friedrich Geldner in his 1951 translation of the Rigveda considers the hymns as "obviously based on an historical event", even though any details save for what is preserved in the hymns have been lost.

Background

Hymns 7.18 and 7.83 are dedicated to Indra and Indra paired with Varuna, respectively, thanking the deity for helping Sudas defeat his enemies, while hymn 7.33 is addressed to Vasishtha himself, praising him for moving the gods to take Sudas' side by his prayers (Indra preferred Vasishtha's prayers over those of Pasadyumna, son of Vayata, 7.33.2) and addressing him as a son of Mitra and Varuna (7.33.11). The hymn makes sure to stress the importance of the priests (Vasistha is named along with Parashara and Satayatu) in winning Indra's favour, even though they were not present on the battlefield but invoked Indra "from at home" (grhāt, 7.18.21)

The situation leading up to the battle is described in 7.18.6: The Turvasas and Yaksus, together with the Matsya tribe (punned upon by the rishi by comparing them to hungry fish (matsya) flocking together) appear and ally themselves with the Bhrigus and the Druhyus. Their confederation was further increased by the Pakthas, the Bhalanas, the Alinas, the Shivas and the Visanins (7.18.7), while the Trtsus relied solely on the help of the "Arya's Comrade" (Aryasya Sadhamad), Indra.

The "ten kings" are mentioned in both 7.33 (verses 3 and 5) and 7.83 (verses 6, 7 and 8), but not in the most extensive account of 7.18 so that it is not made explicit how this number was broken down: Sudas himself is not to be included in the number (the Trtsus are surrounded by ten kings in 7.33.5), and if of the tribes mentioned in 7.18, the Turvasas, Yaksus, Matsyas, Bhrgus, Druhyus, Pakthas, Bhalanas, Alinas, Shivas and Visanins are counted, the full number is reached, leaving the Anavas (7.18.14), the Ajas and Sigrus (7.18.19) and the "21 men of both Vaikarna tribes" (7.18.11) without a king, and implying that Bheda (7.18.19, also mentioned 7.33.3 and 7.83.4, the main leader slain by Sudas), Shimyu (7.18.5), and Kavasa (7.18.12) are the names of individual kings. The Bharatas are
named among the enemies in 7.33 but not in 7.18.

The Battle

The battle itself took place on the banks of the Parusni. The warriors of Sudas are described as white-robed (shvityanca), wearing hair-knots on the right side of their heads (daksinataskaparda - दक्षिणतस्कपर्द), and as pious (dhiyamjinvasa), flying banners (krtádhvaj - कृतध्वज्) , while the ten kings are impious and do not worship (áyajyava). It appears (7.18.5) that Sudas was forced to retreat, and managed to cross the Parusni safely, while his foes, trying to pursue, were scattered in the crossing and either drowned or slaughtered by Sudas' men, Sudas himself slaying Bheda:

7.18.9 As to their goal they sped to their destruction: they sought Parusni; e'en the swift returned not.
Indra abandoned, to Sudas the manly, the swiftly flying foes, unmanly babblers.
7.18.9 They went like kine unherded from the pasture, each clinging to a friend as chance directed.
They who drive spotted steeds, sent down by Prsni, gave ear, the Warriors and the harnessed horses. (trans. Griffith)
Kavasa and the Druhyu were "overwhelmed by Indra" while still in the water (7.18.10). The slain of the Anavas and the Druhyus are numbered 6,666 (7.18.14).
NOTE : The actual number in the verse is 66,666 ( षष्टिः शता षट सहस्रा षष्टि अधि षड ).

7.18.15
इन्द्रेणैते तर्त्सवो वेविषाणा आपो न सर्ष्टा अधवन्त नीचीः |
दुर्मित्रासः परकलविन मिमाना जहुर्विश्वानि भोजना सुदासे ||

[pding]

skgangi:

very interesting finds. also, another curious thing is that at about the same time that Saraswati was drying up, the Akkadian empire started collapsing. inscriptions like the "Curse of Akkad" show the people lamenting about widespread drought and hunger. it seems that was a major climatic shift around the period which dried up entire river systems and fertile lands.

this effect might have been felt even in modern day Rajasthan!

http://2ndlook.files.wordpress.com/2...ian-empire.jpg

check out that link.

the increased presence of Dolomite and Calcite are major clues.

Dolomite is a mineral which forms only with the help of high temperature in laboratory settings. in natural settings, it needs a combination of high temperatures and significant dryness in atmosphere.

Calcite is very unique b/c its solubility in water decreases as temperature rises.

the increase in the presence of both of these minerals at the same time cannot be a coincidence. and combined with the fact that the Akkadian empire starts collapsing at the same time and people start lamenting the hunger and droughts; and to top it all off, the Saraswati river starts drying up at about the same time....

seems like a massive climatic pattern which dried up entire river beds from Rajasthan to Turkey!!!

[skganji]

You are correct. I am not an expert in this subject but there are some good reports on the climatic changes that significantly effected the flow of ths Sarasvati river between between 3rd Millenium B.C and 2nd Millenium B.C. Please post them if you find them. I will post them if I find any.
However not only the climatic changes effected the Saraswati flow but also a massive tectonic shift also deprived Saraswati the flow of Sutlej and Yamuna . All these factors significantly reduced Saraswati to a puny stream.
There is currently a debate on this subject on Yahoo Tech groups. If you are interested , please follow it.

http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/gro.../message/12209

[sanjupalayat]

That was very informative and solved a lot of confusions in me regarding the divine river Saraswaty, whenever i ask about triveni sangamam to my grandma she used answer me that saraswathy is a river from the heaven, i never believed that and always wanted to know the truth, now its more clear for me.

[skganji]

Just a small comment to the video posted above. There is no agreed consensus on the decipherment of Indus script. Towards the end of the Video, it contains Natwar Jha's decipherment of the Dholavira sign board. This decipherment is still controversial. The only way Indus script can be successfully deciphered is through a bilingual inscription. Until such a thing is not available the bitter fight between AMT proponents and OIT proponents will continue. May there are other ways which can lead to the successful decipherment of Indus script. Waiting eagerly for such a break through.

[skganji]

There seems to be some Indic influence in the Kingdom of Mittani circa 15th and 14the centuries BCE. This credit for this article goes to Subash Kak.

The Sun king Akhenaten of Egypt ( who ruled during 1352-1336 BC according to the mainstream view) was a son-in-law of Tushratta, the Mitanni king of North Syria, through queen Kiya. ( The name Tushratta is spelled Tuisrata in the Hittite cuneiform script, which does not distinguish between 'd' and 't' very well. Some have suggested that the original is Dasaratha, a few others that is is Tvesaratha ( having splendid chariots0, a name which is attested in the Rigveda. Letters exchanged between Akhenaten and Tushratta have been found in Amarna in Egypt and other evidence comes from the tombs of the period, which have been discoverd in excellent condition.




"A particular treaty, between the Hittite King Shuppilulima and Mattiwaza (Mattiraja), king of the Hurrian (Hari) kingdom of Mitanni circa 1350 BC, listed among the divine witnesses "Mitra-ash, Uruwana, Indra, and the Nashatiyanu gods, the very Mithra, Varuna, Indra, and the Nasatya (Ashvinis) gods of the Vedic/Hindu pantheon"

Another treatise from the State Archives of the Hittite Empire (circa 2400 BC) was discovered in Boghaz-keui in modern Turkey. It is a treatise on chariot racing and it uses Sanskrit words such as “Aikavartana (ऐक वर्तन )=One Turn, Teravartana=Three Turns, Panzavartana=Five Turns, Sattavartana=Seven Turns.”


Among the Boghaz-keui records is a treatise on the care of horses and chariot-racing, written by a man named Kikkuli, who belonged originally to Mitanni. Although composed in Hittite, it contains the following Aryan technical terms: aikawartanna, terawartanna, panzawartanna, shattawartanna, and nawartanna (by haplology for nawa-wartanna), meaning “one turning", “three turnings", “five turnings", “seven turnings", and “nine turnings” respectively. The numerals correspond to Sanskrit eka, tri, pañca, sapta, and nava (but that for “seven” has already reached the Prakrit stage with the assimilation of p to t); the second element in the compounds corresponds to Sanskrit vartana, “turning.” In Syria at this time we find an equestrian ( mounted on horseback ) warrior-caste called mariannu, with which we may compare Sanskrit marya ( मर्य ), “young man".

In a treaty between the Hittite king Suppiluliumas and the Mitanni king Mattiwaza, among the gods of Mitanni
invoked are Mitrashil, Arunashil, Intara, and Nashatiyana; these are obviously the same as the Indian deities
Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and the Nasatya twins. Among the Mitanni kings we have such typically Aryan names as
Artatama, Artashuwara; among the Kassite kings, Burnaburyash, Nazi-bugash, Nazi-maruttash.

NOTE : There is a great possibility that the presence of Sanskrit like names in Mitanni and Kassite kings could be because of the influence of older Iranian language and tribes whic has close resemblance to the Vedic sanskrit langauge and the vedic tribes ( Anus, parsva, parthava etc) which we discussed under the subject the Historical identity of Iranians.

The Mitanni, were known to the Egyptians as the Naharin ( N'h'ryn'), connected to the river ( nahar), very probably referring to the Euphrates. At its peak, the Mitanni empire stretched from Kirkuk ( ancient Arrapkha) and the Zagros mountains in western Iran in the east, through Assyria to the Mediterranean sea in the west. Its centre was in the region of the Khabur river, where its capital, Wassukkani was probably located.


The list of the Mitanni Kings goes like this.
a) Sutarna I ( good sun).
b) Baratarna I ( Paratarna, great sun)
c) Parasuksatra ( ruler with axe)
d) Saustatar ( Sauksatra, son of Suksatra, the good ruler).
e) Paratarna II
f) Artadama ( Rtadhaman, abiding in cosmic law)
g) Sutarna II
e) Tushratta ( Dasaratha)
f) Matiwazza ( Mativaja, whose wealth is thought).

The early years of Mitanni empire were occupied in the in the struggle with Egypt for control of Syria. The greatest Mitanni king was Sauksatra who reigned during the time of Thutmose III. He was said to have looted the Assyrian palace at Ashur. Under the reign of Thutmose IV, more friendly relations were established between the Egyptians and the Mitanni.

.. to be continued.

[leonhamilton]

The Sarasvati River is one of the chief Rigvedic rivers mentioned in ancient Hindu texts.Rig Veda is just not a religious text,it also contained many geographical details of ancient India.There is nothing wrong in taking geographical data about River Sarasvati from Rig Veda.

[skganji]

We notice that in the R.V there were constant battles between Aryas and Dasyus . The British identified themselves as Aryans ( White-skinned) and the local Indians ( dark-skinned) as Dasyus and tried to legitimize their rule in India. This has absolutely no basis in Rig Veda. The distinction between Aryas and Dasyus is entirely based on character and behavior and not based on color.
Who is a Dasyu and who is a Arya ?. This question is important to understand the the important battles like Dasarajnya ( Battle of Ten kings ) which was fought on the banks of River Parusni.

Rig-vea 1.51.8

वि जानीह्यार्यान ये च दस्यवो बर्हिष्मते रन्धया शासदव्रतान |
शाकी भव यजमानस्य चोदिता विश्वेत ता ते सधमादेषु चाकन ||

synonyms : वि जानी - Discern, अर्यान - of Aryas, च - also, दस्यवो - of dasyas, बर्हिष्मत् - one who has or spreads sacrificial grass, भव - become, यजमान - sacrificer, अस्य - of this, चोदित - incited,विश्वेत - at all times,

Translation ( T.H.Griffith ) : Discern thou well Āryas and Dasyus; punishing the lawless give them up to him whose grass is strewn.
Be thou the sacrificer's strong encourager all these thy deeds are my delight at festivals.

Alternate Translation ( Devamrita Swami) : Distinguish between the Aryas and the dasyus. Make the dasyus submit to those who are worshippers. correct them , who have no law.

10.22.8

अकर्मा दस्युरभि नो अमन्तुरन्यव्रतो अमानुषः |
तवन्तस्यामित्रहन वधर्दासस्य दम्भय ||

Synonyms : अकर्मा - wicked, दस्यु - Dasya, अमन्तु - ignorant, अन्यव्रत - devoted to others ( infidel, follow alien laws), अमानुषः - inhuman, दम्भय - Proud

Translation ( T.H.Griffith) Around us is the Dasyu, riteless, void of sense, inhuman, keeping alien laws.
Baffle, thou Slayer of the foe, the weapon which this Dāsa wields.

Alternate Translation (Devamrita Swami) : The dasyu is against us. He is without good deeds and deviod of good thoughts. He follows other laws, and is not human. Indra, O killer of unfriendly people, outwith the dasas' weapon

Further analysis by Devamrita Swami : He says that in the Rig-veda the two appellations dasa and dasyu both refer to people of hostile and unintelligible speech, and who may be either human or extraterrestrial. Bearing in mind that the prime criterion for classification as an arya or arya foe is behavior -spiritual acumen - we should also know that language and family line are used as secondary indicator. All the vedic literatures generally describe ancient history based on a preponderance of arya or non-arya qualities in particular peoples and dynasties. Often the ethical and the ethnic do coincide- owing to families, peoples, and even whole regions of the universe perpetuating certain standards. But the relationship between ethnicity - whether terrestrial or extraterrestial - and spirituality should never be taken as quid pro quo.

[ravan]

Originally Posted by simpliCITY

Believers or nonbelievers??? Are you talking about hystory? or relegion?? In modern scientific world there is only fact figures & proofs existed. no sacred texts and beliefs.

this is the most idiot comment i am hearing,,,

you are talking that only scientific facts must be countede and not sacred text..so you are discounting 90% citizens of india (including other religons),,who live their life by these sacred text only,,you yourself must be following them unconsiously(its in our genes)..


science is their to understand the creation of gods,,not to create them..

[pding]

^
the vedas contain a lot of info that is beyond religion. the Yajur Veda is the primary one for religious practices, yagnas, homas, etc.

the Rig Veda is almost entirely an historic text. it is a preservation of India's oral history of age old.

the Sama Veda is where Indian music comes from. sa,re,ga,ma,pa,da,ni,sa, etc came from Sama Veda. this is just basic stuff. there is a bunch of other stuff in Sama and Rig Vedas. and by the way, the Yajur Veda contains the proof that Indians knew of the geometry of Right Triangles long before the Pythagorous deduced it.

[ravan]

Originally Posted by simpliCITY

Believers or nonbelievers??? Are you talking about hystory? or relegion?? In modern scientific world there is only fact figures & proofs existed. no sacred texts and beliefs.

oh really .sacred text have passed the tert of time whereas science is just a child.
what will u say in the age of a.i,nanotechnology when modern scientific will loose its relevance?

[skganji]

DHRUVA THE ANCIENT INDIAN POLE STAR:
FIXITY, ROTATION AND MOVEMENT
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/3167322...HS2011-RNI.pdf

Article by R.N.Iyengar on Sisumara in vedic texts relating to Indian astronomy in ancient times. This article also identifies DHRUVA with star Thuban in the Constellation Draco. Thuban was a pole star before 2300 B.C. This identification is based on numerous ancient vedic texts which provided details on all the 13 stars in the constellation Draco.

More on Thuban can be found here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuban




From Brahmanda Purana.

sûryâdînâm syandanânâm dhruvâdeva pravartanam|
kîrtyante úiúumârasya yasya pucche dhruvah. stithah.|| (1.84)

Synonyms : Surya-adiinaam - The sun, moon and other stars , syandana - chariot , pravartanam - movement,
Kirtyante - glorified , Sisumarasya - dolphin, Puccha - tail , dhruvah - star dhruva ( Thuban in ancient times), stithah. - fixed,
Translation ( from the article) : The movement of sun and other celestial bodies is explained as induced from Dhruva, who resides at the tail of the Úiúumâra.

[skganji]

The Flora-Fauna-nature in Aryan Urheimat - Premendra Priyadarshi.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/60107436/F...Aryan-Urheimat

Professor Witzel as usual wants to exclude India from the out of the picture as the Aryan Urheimat based on claims that Rig Veda contains cold geographical habitat and animals which can only be found in Europe. This is rebutted by Priyadarshi by examining the cognates for these trees in IE languages.

Witzel claims that oak, birch and willow trees grow in the northern colder regions, andpresence of the respective cognate words in Sanskrit with meanings of the three specific tropical trees should mean that the Indo-Europeans came to India carrying these words,and after not finding the original trees in India they thrust these names on to the three tropical trees found in India. (2009 fulltext:5, fn 32)

Professor Witzel's full article can be found here.

http://www.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/dec2009...l_fulltext.pdf

[skganji]

The credit for this post goes to Bhagawan Singh who rattled Prof. Witzel at IIC

Reference to white pottery in RigVeda

R.V 4.27.25.
अध शवेतं कलशं गोभिर अक्तम आपिप्यानम मघवा शुक्रम अन्धः |
अध्वर्युभिः परयतम मध्वो अग्रम इन्द्रो मदाय परति धत पिबध्यै शूरो मदाय परति धत पिबध्यै ||

Synonyms : शवेतं - White, कलशं - Pot, मघवा - Maghavan ( Indra), शूरो - Hero, मदाय - joy

Translation ( T.H.Griffith) : And now let Maghavan accept the beaker, white, filled with milk, filled with the shining liquid;
The best of sweet meath which the priests have offered: that Indra to his joy may drink, the Hero, that he may take and drink it to his rapture.

White pottery is a distinctive feature of Hakra Ware dated to 3000 BC. This goes against the dating of 1500-1250 BC for the Rgveda.

Snippet of the Report from the Conference.

He ( Prof Witzel) hesitantly managed, “There is no evidence of chariot or horse in India earlier than the mid-second millennium.”

But Professor, the aśva in Rgveda, whatever could it have been, was brought from sea bound areas, even the aśva in the horse sacrifice, mentioned in Book I, hymn 163.

Prof. Witzel had no choice but to bite his lips in desperation.

- You say that the wheel and chariot were invented by Aryans when they were in Central Asia, but in the Book IV itself, Bhr.gus are given the credit for manufacturing wheels (4.16.20). Chariot and wheel was therefore not Aryan, but a Dravidian invention.

Witzel pretended that the inventors might have been Aryans and manufacturers Dravidians! He now forgot the antiquity of Book IV, which according to his suggestion, could have been written in Central Asia, older even than Book VI, composed entirely in Northern Afghanistan; Dravidian speakers must have been there as well.

After a few worthless queries, the debate shrunk back to Michael Witzel, Kapila Vatsyayan, and Bhagwan Singh.

- The problem with you, Professor, is that you are not familiar with the content of Book IV even. Hymn 57 of Book IV gives a graphic depiction of advanced agriculture, with a plough almost similar to the one that was common in India up to the mid-twentieth century, drawn by a pair of bullocks and driven by a ploughman in service. And in one of the Ŗics, the poet talks of milking the earth as a cow, year after year. It testifies to advanced agricultural activities with sedentary population and belies the myth of nomadism, pastoralism, and barbarity.


The Chair could not hold her laughter; Witzel shook in dismay.



More on 4.16.20

4.16.20.
एवेद इन्द्राय वर्षभाय वर्ष्णे बरह्माकर्म भर्गवो न रथम |
नू चिद यथा नः सख्या वियोषद असन न उग्रो ऽविता तनूपाः
Synonyms : इन्द्राय - for Indra, वर्षभाय - The strong, भर्गवो - Bhrgus, रथम - chariot, car , सख्या - friendship, तनूपाः - Bodies

Translation ( T.H.Griffith) : Now, as the Bhṛgus wrought a car, for Indra the Strong, the Mighty, we our prayer have fashioned,
That he may, ne’er withdraw from us his friendship, but be our bodies' guard and strong defender.

Reference to advanced agricultural activity in RV 4.57.

4.57.4
शुनं वाहाः शुनं नरः शुनं कर्षतु लाङगलम |
शुनं वरत्रा बध्यन्तां शुनम अष्ट्राम उद इङगय ||

Synonyms : शुनं - Happily, नरः - Men, कर्षतु - make furrow, लाङगलम - plough, बध्यन्तां - bound, शुनम - happily, आष्ट्रा - goad( Stick for driving cattle or elephant),
Translation ( T.H.Griffith) : Happily work our steers and men, may the plough furrow happily. Happily be the traces bound; happily may he ply the goad

4.57.7

इन्द्रः सीतां नि गर्ह्णातु ताम पूषानु यछतु |
सा नः पयस्वती दुहाम उत्तराम-उत्तरां समाम ||

Synonyms :इन्द्रः - Indra, सीतां - furrow, सा - she, नः - may, पयस्वती - rich in milk, दुहाम - yield,

Translation ( T.H.Griffith) : : May Indra press the furrow down, may Pūṣan guide its course aright. May she, as rich in milk, be drained for us through each succeeding year.

Note : Witzel Keeps on bringing the Horse and chariot arguements when the dating of RV is brought up. He puts the R.V at 1400 B.C because of his so called objections about the horse and chariot not available in archaeological records prior to 1400 B.C in India. Upon close scrutiny Horse evidence is reported at several places in Indus Valley , however, this is seriously contested( because of political nature of the Aryan problem) by some scholars like Meadow and Parpola. However, few scholars like Allchin are considerate about this evidence. Here is what Bridget Allchin ( 1977) voices an opinion after exchanges with Bokonyi ( a horse specialist from europe who looked at bones of Equus Caballus at suruktoda) :

"From historical times onwards we know that horses have been regularly imported to south asia. We also know that Indus had a long tradition of trade with centers to the west and north. Would it be surprising therefore if horses were occassionally acquired through trade, ultimately reaching the Indus world by land or sea. This would account for the occurrence of a relatively small number of their bones in various contexts without the need to assume their presence must necessarily be associated with profund cultural change"

[skganji]

Is MEENA a Sanskrit word or a old Tamil word ?.

From various sources it can be safely said that this word is definitely a Sanskrit word and it is borrowed into old Tamil and other dravidian languages. This allegation by some Indologists who are deciphering Indus script that MEENA is only found in Dravidian languages and it has no clear Indo-European etymology is quite fraudulent. They even claim that it is borrowed into Sanskrit which is totally wrong.

Below we will present reference to this word in Puranas and the etymology of this word.

The credit for this article to Mr. Narayanan and taken from the discussion on google tech groups at

http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/topics

The confirmation on the Mina Rashi's elements of constellation was on the basis of a conversation between Narada and Pulastya in the Vamana Purana.

धनिष्ठार्द्धं शतभिषा प्रोष्टपदांशकत्रयम्। सौरं पद्मापरमिदं कुम्भो जङ्घे च
विश्रुते॥
प्रोष्ठपदांशमेकन्तु उत्तरा रेवती तथा। द्वितीयं जीवसदनं मीनन्तु
चरणावुभौ॥........................
इति श्रीवामनपुराणे पुलस्त्यनारदसंवादे हरललितः पञ्चमोऽध्यायः॥


"The term मीनः is in masculine gender from the root मीञ् हिंसायाम् with a suffix नक् supported by the Unadi rule 3.3 फेनमीनौ, and the derivation will be मीयते हिंस्यते इति मीनः मत्स्य: । Amarasimha gives a lexical support to this as मत्स्यः (1-10-17). Why it is in masculine gender ? The Panini Linganushasana says : नोपधः, the syllable न् as the penultimate one to the अ ending like इनः, फेनः etc.

The term also used to represent the last Rashi starting from Mesha ( अन्त्यभम् ). It says : मेषादिद्वादशराश्यन्तर्गतान्तिमराशिः। It includes the the last one (or three??) fourth of Purvabhaadrapadaa, Uttarabhaadrapadaa and Revati. Two female fish are appearing to represent the fundamental goddess of this Rashi. I doubt that is it the one fourth of Purvabhaadrapadaa or three fourth of Purvabhaadrapadaa??. I hope the astronomers will pardon me if my learning is wrong. "

Comments by Bhagawan Singh on MEENA

"It is not easy to tell in case of quite a large number of words whether they are Sanaskrit or non Sanskritic which includes Dravidian and Mundari and even some extinct languages. You find them deeply imbedded down to colloquial level. These terms may better be called Indic. So with miina. There is a string of words mn, mana, manu, E. man, moon, and Skt. miina with semantic core 'to shine' going back to etyma mn= water. To which source theis last one belonged we can not be sure. Elaboration is not warranted. As Caldwell had very emphatically said terms relationg to sciences, arts, philosophy etc. have been borrowed by Dravidian from the Aryan. The term which refers to a constllation as well, is definitly a borrowing in Dravidian from Sanskrit. The etymology from a given root may be suspect but not the fact that it is most likely to be Sanskrit. Min, minati = to injure, to kill etc. have another semantic source." -- BS

More references to MEENA in Sanskrit literature

From Kalidasa Raghuvamsa

इति विज्ञापितो राज्ञा ध्यानम् स्तिमित लोचनः |
क्षण मात्रम् ऋषिः तस्थौ सुप्त मीन इव ह्रदः || 1-73
Synonyms
इति राज्ञा विज्ञापितः= this way, by king, when entreated; ऋषिः= sage वशिष्ठ; ध्यान स्तिमित लोचनः= by thought, quieted, eyes; क्षण मात्रम्= for a moment, only; तस्थौ= became still; सुप्त मीन इव ह्रदः= slept, fish, like, lake.

Translation
When the king entreated the sage वशिष्ठ in this way, the eyes of that sage are quieted meditatively and remained still for a moment like a stilly lake with slept fish.

प्रास्तविकविलासः
संकोचमञ्चति सर्स्त्वयि दीनदीनो
मीनो नु हन्त कतमां गतिमभ्युपैतु॥१६॥

[kajusen]

an excellent thread sir !!! keep up this good work !!!!

I love History too

[kajusen]

Just want to verify whether I am true or not .:-------


I learnt that the Aryans originated nd dwelt around central asia , and half of them migrated to India and Half of them to Europe . I have read Julius Caesar , where I have found that the Gods,the rituals, the technique of worship , The traditions were more or less Similar to those of the Hindus ( or say indo Aryans) . Also people like Hitler called themselves as
"True Aryans" .

Does thus mean that the race which came to India and the race which went to europe were the same . that means the Roman civilisation was very similar to their Indian counterparts .

Infact the story of Noah's ark is very similar to that of the boat of Manu in the Hindu mythology .

[Arul Murugan]

The word meen appears as early as 300B.C in Sangam literature pattupatu compared to 300-1000A.D Vamana purana.

கல் காயுங் கடுவேனி லொடு
இரு வானம் பெயலொ ளிப்பினும்
வரும் வைகல் மீன்(meen) பிறழினும்
வெள்ளமா றாது விளையுள் பெருக
நெல்லி னோதை அரிநர் கம்பலை 110

[skganji]

The gender and the root of मीनः has been explained by Panini sutras in linganushashana and unadi sutras ( Unadivrutih - उनदिवृतिः). Panini's work is dated 500 B.C.

|| फेनमीनौ || 3-3 ||
फेनमीनौ निपात्येते | "फण गतौ" "मीञ् हिंसायाम्" आभ्यं
नक्प्रत्ययो भवति, नकारलोपः, उपघाया एत्वं च | जलदोषविशेषः ||
मीयते इति मीनः मत्स्य: ||

The term मीनः is in masculine gender from the root "मीञ् हिंसायाम्" with a suffix नक् supported by the Unadi rule 3.3.

As P.Priyadarshi points that,

Mina, meaning fish, is also recorded in Tocharian B (extinct Central Asian Indo-European langauge). See page 462 in the link below "mina-dhvaje"

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=8...q=fish&f=false

He points out that "Mina is there in English as "minnow", and Old English as myne."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=minnow

[skganji]

These articles deliver blow to Aryan Hoax.

http://www.openthemagazine.com/artic...of-our-origins

http://www.openthemagazine.com/artic...aplogroup-r1a1

http://www.openthemagazine.com/artic...g/haplogroup-d

http://www.openthemagazine.com/artic...g/haplogroup-l

Snippets from the r1a1 article.

The first thing that the evidence suggests is that the origins of Hartosh's R1a1 haplogroup lie in India. Thus, a large part of Central Asia, Southern Russia, Ukraine onwards to the Czech Republic may well be populated by a 15,000-year-old migration from India. Given the timeframe of the origins of the R1a1 haplogroup in India, it is important to note that this does not rule out a subsequent re-entry of people from Central Asia bearing this marker into India at a much later date.