The Lost Vedic River Sarasvati

[jas29]

Lots of North West Indians are fair skinned & a few have coloured eyes. There are even fair skinned people in south india. India is diverse, every colour from pale white (l know quite a few hindu/sikh/muslim punjabis/kashmiris/pahari/rajput) who are paler than many brits, right upto a very dark brown/black (more common amongst tribals in east India & some South Indians). In any case, Aryan does not indicate someone's 'race'. As mentioned before, it means 'noble'.

[Arul Murugan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mina

tomo some one from middle east can claim meenatchi goddess at Madurai is from middle east and one from egypt and one from Togo Africa.

Note: In Tamil it is Meena and not mina.

[barrykul]

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by iamdeath

^ there is enough evidence they came from central asia, i can give you documantries/shows that have made on them.

Bah, humbug, Witzel redux?

Originally Posted by OldKool

bad..Aryans are not necessarily white plus Aryan is a code of conduct and no invasion ever happened....its a discarded racist theories by Britishers.plus the pics you posted are of south indian people who are darker version of Indians as they are exactly similar in features plus look at me I am an Indian and not that dark only if you consider fair people as aryans.

Good Point!

I don't know why we keep re-hashing this nonsense at the drop of the hat.

The Germans/Brits created this strawman called "Aryan" out of their orifices. A whole school of bunkum was created on this theory. They had to come up with something otherwise they would look mighty silly vis-a-vis the distilled knowledge of the Vedas that were created by both "Dark" and "White" Indians who lived in the gangetic/indus valleys of India. We can argue about why certain people look white or dark but the fact remains that Indian rishis (who came from all walks of life and social strata) created the Vedas. The Rishis were venerated and held the title called "Arya" or "Sir" or "Herr". Their stature/knowledge elevated them to "Arya" whether they were black or white or brown or yellow. Indus valley civilization is so ancient and old that others from all over the world migrated to the valley, very similar to modern day people from the world migrating to the US. From the Indus' collective society and experience arose a stupendous body of knowledge called the Vedas.

Brits/Germans/Central Asians/Europeans can only hope but they did not create the Vedas.

So all the charlatans who keep dredging this nonsense can go peddle their theories elsewhere. Indians don't buy this.

[artoor]

It's high time for Indian scholars to oppose the official theory of so-called Aryan
invasion. India should finally rise its head and emerge in full glory.
Don't let your history be speculated about by some biased Westerners.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by Arul Murugan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mina

tomo some one from middle east can claim meenatchi goddess at Madurai is from middle east and one from egypt and one from Togo Africa.

Note: In Tamil it is Meena and not mina.

I am not sure how this is related to the discussion whether MEENA ( मीनः) is a Sanskrit word or not and whether it is borrowed into Sanskrit from Dravidian as these Indologists claim or vice-versa. Clearly we have demonstrated that MEENA is borrowed into Dravidian from Sanskrit.

Reference to the Sanskrit word MEENA in Vedanga Jyothisha.

The Vedanga Jyothisha of Lagadha ( लगध). This is dated 1300 B.C - 1100 B.C by Indian National Science Academy.
This is the 5th verse in the Yajur Vedanga Jyothisha.

http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/rawdatau...0005abd_s1.pdf

ये बृहस्पतिना भुक्ता मीनात् प्रभृति राशयः |
ते हृताः पंचाभिर्यतः यः शेषः यः स परिग्रिहः ||

[skganji]

Is part of the Indus script logo-phonetic ?.

I am not an expert decipherer, however, I am just throwing an Idea and want to see how people respond to this comment. It is noticed that repetitive signs in egyptian cartouches contain a phonetic value and they indicated the names of Pharoas and the queens. One such thing noticed in IVC is the dholavira sign board. This sign board contained 10 glyphs of which 2nd, 3rd , 8th and 10th glyphs from right to left are repititive and may possibly have a phonetic value.
There is one unknown decipherer who reads a city's name from the dholavira sign board.
Check out Fig .28 in the link below to understand how interprets it.
http://decipherquarterly.piczo.com/d...linkvar=000044

P.S. I don't claim that this presented idea is correct here.

[skganji]

A decent article by S.R.Rao on the Dwaraka Excavation. Contains good quality pictures.

http://www.umcasia.org/Downloads/......%20R%20Rao.pdf

[JeanValJean]

What is your explanation for the similarities between Sanskrit and other Indo-European languages?

[skganji]

Originally Posted by JeanValJean

What is your explanation for the similarities between Sanskrit and other Indo-European languages?

Westward migration of some groups of people into Iran and Central Asia and their influence on European languages. Even though Professor Witzel tries to distorts it, there is literary evidence in BSS 18.44 ( Bhaudayana Srautasutra) which says that one son of King Puru and his followers went westwards to Gandhari, Parsu and Aratta.
You can see some Sanskrit influence even in Suppililiuma-Shattiwaza treaty ( Mitanni-Hittite treaty). Atleast incase of Avestan language, you see heavy influence of Sanskrit. Infact you can translate any Avestan inscription to Sanskrit very easily. You can't ignore some similarities between Zend Avesta and Rig Veda. Avesta clearly talks about Saptha-Sindhu as one of their holy lands.

təm amavantəm yazatəm ( Avestan)
tam amavantam yajatam ( Sanskrit )

surəm damohu scvistəm ( Avestan)
suram dhamasu savistham ( Sanskrit)

miθrəm yazai zaoθrabyo ( Avestan)
mitram yajai hotrabhyah ( Sanskrit)


Some sanskritized names in Kassites.

In the centuries before the Mitanni texts, there was a Kassite dynasty in Mesopotamia, from the 18th to the 16th century BC. Linguistically assimilated, they preserved some purely Vedic names:
Shuriash - ( Sanskrit - सूर्य )
Maruttah - ( Sanskrit - मरुत)
Inda-Bugash ( Sansrkit Indra-Bhaga) (Bhaga meaning effectively “god”, cfr. Bhag-wAn, Slavic Bog).

Sanskrit Avesta Cognates
Skt Satam -Av Satəm ( Hundred)
Skt Vajra - Av vazra ( thunder bolt)
Skt Hima - Av Zima ( Snow)

Sanskrit Words in Mitanni Kingdom

The first one is a treaty in which the king of Mitanni swears by a series of gods with Hurrian names and concludes with the Indic Mi-it-ra, Aru-na, In-da-ra, and Na-sa-at-tita (Mitra, Varuna, Indra, Nasatya).
The second text is a manual on chariotry by a Mitannian named Kikkuli, who uses Indic numerals and words like assussanni (Sanskrit asvasani, "horse trainer").
Finally, there is a document in which Indic words are used to describe the colors of horses

Kikkuli, the Horse Trainer's text

“Thus speaks Kikkuli, master horse trainer of the land of Mitanni” (UM.MA Ki-ik-ku-li LÚA-AŠ-ŠU-UŠ-ŠA-AN-NI ŠA KUR URUMI-IT-TA-AN-NI Thus begins the Kikkuli's text. The text contains a complete prescription for conditioning (exercise and feeding) Hittite war horses over 214 days.

The numeral compounds aiga-, tera-, panza-, satta-, nāwa-wartanna ("one, three, five, seven, nine intervals", virtually Sanskrit eka-, tri-, pañca- sapta-, nava-vartana.

Mt - Sutaran ( Vedic Sutarman)
Mt Indarota - Skt ( Indrota , RV) , Meaning - Helped by Indra.
Mt babru - Skt babhru ( Brown color)
Mt parita - Skt Palita ( Grey Color)
Mt Pinkara - Skt Pingala ( Red Color)

Sumerian word for Cotton is Kapazam. The only word for cotton in Sanskrit is Karpasa. You can see the use of this word in Sutra literature and is not found in Brahmanas or Rigveda.
Sumerian word for cow is Gu. The corresponding word in Skt is Go.

Is Mitanni more archaic than Vedic ?.

Mitanni is claimed to be more archaic than Vedic based on the fact that the language uses ‘ai/au’ unlike ‘e/o’ in Vedic. The presence of ‘z’ (lost by Vedic) is shown as another evidence for the claim that Mitanni is older than RV.

Mitanni does have certain Prakritizations which are not found in Sanskrit. For example, ‘sapta’ becomes ‘satta’ in Mitanni. Witzel claims that this has occurred due to the influence of Hurrite ‘sinti’. Are we supposed to believe that the Hurrite word ‘influenced’ Prakritization of ‘sapta’? Can anyone derive the evolution of ‘sapta’ into ‘satta’ due to the influence of ‘sinti’? One AIT proponent, stated that Hurrian does not have any word with the sound ‘-pt-‘ and hence, it had led to the term becoming ‘satta’. While it does look like a better explanation, it is not much better than that of Witzel. Hurrian does not have the ‘-dr-’ sound either. But we find that the Mitanni have written ‘indra’ as ‘indara’. ‘Indra’ did not become ‘Inara’ (as in Anatolian). Similar change could be expected in ‘sapta’ as well (into ‘sapata’). But what we see here is a case of Prakritization (of ‘sapta’ evolving into ‘satta’). This shows that Mitanni cannot be called as ‘completely pre-RV’ without any reservations.

Moreover, there is the problem of comparing a written language of mid second millennium BCE with RV (whose final redaction and standardization occured around 700 BCE). It is well known that some changes in pronunciation did occur in RV prior to its final redaction. It is very much possible that the changes like ‘ai>e’, ‘au>o’, ‘azdh’>’edh’ etc. could have occurred before the final redaction of RV.

One more observation about the -pt- becoming -tt in seven ( sapta becoming satta in Mitanni). - Credits Shiv Kokhra.
Seals that Brentjes identified peacocks on (first published by Edith Porada) were found in the house of Tehiptilla. Notice the stop -pt- in this name. Mitanni has satta for seven even though they had stops such as -pt- thus a clear case of assimilation. Sanksrit Sapta became Satta in Middle Indo Aryan due to assimilation. This means Mitanni language was post vedic.


"Linguisting evidence points to Mittanni being a Middle Indo aryan language and thus came after Rig Veda. For those who think that Vedic corpus did not contain the vowel "ai" and thus erroneously assume aika is more archaic then eka should study Rg Veda Pratisakhya and Yajur Veda Pratisakhya where it is amply demonstrated that the sound "ai" was very much in vogue in Vedic times." - credits Shiv Kokhra.


Why Naastyah are invoked in Mitanni treaty ?. - Credits B.B.Lal and Shiv Kokhra

Nasatyas together with Mitra,Varun and Indra are the oath deities sworn by in the Mitanni treaty of 1380 BCE. In RV 8.35.12 and 1.120.8, the Asvins are invoked to guard against the breach of a treaty. Yaska in Nirukta 6.13 shows that they were regarded as protectors of the truth: "they are (na-asatya) i.e they are true and not false". Without RV and Yaska we cannot understand why these Gods of India would be used on the treaties by the Mitanni as these Indian Gods were not gods in Iran or any other country.

[मरीचिका]

excellent work sir!

[JeanValJean]

Originally Posted by skganji

Westward migration of some groups of people into Iran and Central Asia and their influence on European languages. Even though Professor Witzel tries to distorts it, there is literary evidence in BSS 18.44 ( Bhaudayana Srautasutra) which says that one son of King Puru and his followers went westwards to Gandhari, Parsu and Aratta.
You can see some Sanskrit influence even in Suppililiuma-Shattiwaza treaty ( Mitanni-Hittite treaty). Atleast incase of Avestan language, you see heavy influence of Sanskrit. Infact you can translate any Avestan inscription to Sanskrit very easily. You can't ignore some similarities between Zend Avesta and Rig Veda. Avesta clearly talks about Saptha-Sindhu as one of their holy lands.

təm amavantəm yazatəm ( Avestan)
tam amavantam yajatam ( Sanskrit )

surəm damohu scvistəm ( Avestan)
suram dhamasu savistham ( Sanskrit)

miθrəm yazai zaoθrabyo ( Avestan)
mitram yajai hotrabhyah ( Sanskrit)


Some sanskritized names in Kassites.

In the centuries before the Mitanni texts, there was a Kassite dynasty in Mesopotamia, from the 18th to the 16th century BC. Linguistically assimilated, they preserved some purely Vedic names:
Shuriash - ( Sanskrit - सूर्य )
Maruttah - ( Sanskrit - मरुत)
Inda-Bugash ( Sansrkit Indra-Bhaga) (Bhaga meaning effectively “god”, cfr. Bhag-wAn, Slavic Bog).

Sumerian word for Cotton is Kapazam. The only word for cotton in Sanskrit is Karpasa. You can see the use of this word in Sutra literature and is not found in Brahmanas or Rigveda.

Is Mitanni more archaic than Vedic ?.

Mitanni is claimed to be more archaic than Vedic based on the fact that the language uses ‘ai/au’ unlike ‘e/o’ in Vedic. The presence of ‘z’ (lost by Vedic) is shown as another evidence for the claim that Mitanni is older than RV.

Mitanni does have certain Prakritizations which are not found in Sanskrit. For example, ‘sapta’ becomes ‘satta’ in Mitanni. Witzel claims that this has occurred due to the influence of Hurrite ‘sinti’. Are we supposed to believe that the Hurrite word ‘influenced’ Prakritization of ‘sapta’? Can anyone derive the evolution of ‘sapta’ into ‘satta’ due to the influence of ‘sinti’? One AIT proponent, stated that Hurrian does not have any word with the sound ‘-pt-‘ and hence, it had led to the term becoming ‘satta’. While it does look like a better explanation, it is not much better than that of Witzel. Hurrian does not have the ‘-dr-’ sound either. But we find that the Mitanni have written ‘indra’ as ‘indara’. ‘Indra’ did not become ‘Inara’ (as in Anatolian). Similar change could be expected in ‘sapta’ as well (into ‘sapata’). But what we see here is a case of Prakritization (of ‘sapta’ evolving into ‘satta’). This shows that Mitanni cannot be called as ‘completely pre-RV’ without any reservations.

Moreover, there is the problem of comparing a written language of mid second millennium BCE with RV (whose final redaction and standardization occured around 700 BCE). It is well known that some changes in pronunciation did occur in RV prior to its final redaction. It is very much possible that the changes like ‘ai>e’, ‘au>o’, ‘azdh’>’edh’ etc. could have occurred before the final redaction of RV.

To be continued....

That's interesting. Thank you for your detailed explanation. I am not familiar with Indo-European languages that were spoken in the Middle East so I learned something. But it seems to me that some of your observations regarding Avestan and Sanskrit can be explained better if we consider that both Avestan and Sanskrit evolved from a common source instead of Sanskrit influencing Avestan. The similarities between the Avesta and Rig Veda can also be attributed to a common Indo-Iranian culture.

[skganji]

What is that so called source ?. PIE ??. It is not even an attested language. It is full of conjectures. It doesn't have any archaeological evidence to support it.
There is nothing in Rigveda or in Avesta to indicate that the common homeland is either Central Asia or Europe. Morever, Avesta clearly has knowledge of Saptha-Sindhu.It is infact through the systematic analysis of Rigveda and Avesta one can identify their common homeland at some point is Saptha-Sindhu . This is exactly been demonstrated by Shrikant Talageri in his books Rigveda and Avesta - The final evidence. His other book the Historical Analysis of Rigveda more or less demonstrates this same concept.

In the latest book by Edwin Bryant 2009, he clearly say that not even a single Andronova artifact has been excavated or found in either India or in Iran. There is absolutely zero archaeological evidence to support that common Indo-Iranian culture is the steppes of Russia.

[skganji]

The following picture 102 shows a peacock from Chalcolithic pottery in Gujarat, it has three feathers in the head:




But just compare it with peacock's head in the seal near Mitanni at a possible Hurrian site. These same three feathers are portrayed:

http://tinyurl.com/3b3w4y6

This clearly shows that Mittanni and India had contact in c. 1600 BC, and even a possible migration out of India to Near East.

[skganji]

B.B.Lal - An archaeological and Historial Perspective.

Against the Vedic=Harappan equation, three objections have been raised. One, the vedic people were nomads, whereas the Harappans were Highly civilized. Two, the Vedic vehicles were provided with spoked wheels, while the Harappans did not know such a wheel. Three, the horse played a very important role in the life of the Vedic people, whereas the Harappans did not domesticate the horse. We shall now examine the Validity of these objections.

Nomads keep on wandering from place to place and have no permanent settlements. On the other contrary, the Vedic people not only had regular settlements but many of these settlements were fortified ( RV 7.15.14) . On the economic front too, they were well off and were engaged in both internal as well as external trade. Their sea-faring boats were provided with 'a hundred oars' ( R.V 1.116.5). In matters of governance, they had a well defined hierarchy of rules. Thus, for example, whereas Abhyaavartin Chaayamaana was called a samraat ( sovereign ; RV 6.27.8) , chitra was Raajan ( king) and others were just Raajakas ( kinglings ; RV 8.21.18). Let not anybody think that these tiers were not real. The satapatha Brahmana ( V.1.1.13) clearly states :

BY offering the Raajasuya he becomes Raaja and by the Vaajapeya he becomes Samraat, and the office of Raja is lower and that of Samraat the higher. Raaja might indeed wish to become a Samraat, for the office of Raaja is lower and of Samraat , the higher. But the Samraat, would not wish to become a Rajaa for the office of the Raaja is lower, and that of the Samraat the higher.

[kalkibhagwan]

Wow so cool, when it comes to Hinduism everyone is eager to attack it..

looks like congress is doing it's job well

[desiyogi]

Nice thread. People don't realise that since there is a lot of mythology involved and since people have been practising Hinduism for over 5000 years there are certain cultural traditions and superstitions wrongly attached to Hinduism .

[kalkibhagwan]

Originally Posted by desiyogi

Nice thread. People don't realise that since there is a lot of mythology involved and since people have been practising Hinduism for over 5000 years there are certain cultural traditions and superstitions wrongly attached to Hinduism .

and islam and chrisitianity are all true, scientific onlee jai ho secularism ki...

[skganji]

Prof.Bhagwan Singh - Rigvedic Harappans - Roots & Legacy

Correspondence between Harappan Material and Rigvedic allusions is as faithful as a print is to its block, or a sealing to the seal. We can make out a comparative chart showing some aspects of Harappan civilization on one side and the Rigvedic allusions on the other.

City --- No Harappan city was found to have been destroyed. They suffered gradual decline and death. Vedic Aryans had their own cities. Whereas Purandara refers to cleaving rain clouds, Puramdhi - mindful of the city and its affairs and puurpati - administrator of the city. They built their own cities.

Road --- Rigveda refers to broad way - aapatha, street - vipatha, lane - anupatha, interior lane/subway - antaspath, and cross-roads - visuci.


Staircase and upper storey -- aarodhana - ladder/staircase, mounting; trivaruutha - three storey building, tridhaatu sharma - a word-play on tridathu signifying the three aspects - health, peace and prosperity of a happy building, as well as three stories of a house. This only suggests that the buildings in Harappa had three stories at the most, but is applied to selective structures only.

Houses - RV mentions different types of houses - sadma, bhavan, gRha, sharma, sharaNa, asta , varuutha , some of them large is size, RV . 8.10-1; suraNam gRham - comfortable house RV .3-53-6) even well illuminated houses attended by servants houses having bathing pools RV. 10-107-10 ( पुष्करिणीव )

granary - The granary is mentioned as Urdara तमूर्दरं : RV.2.14.11. Here the word तं (him) and ऊर्दर (granary) are conjugated to form : तमूर्दरं

palace - RV refers to the residence of the ruler of massive size with numerous pillars and numerous doors. सहस्रस्थूण ( supported by a thousand columns), besides house of justice, रतस्य सद्म ( Rtasya sadma), R.V.2.14.11

technical advancement - Not only saw but the file to sharpen of the teeth of the saw is mentioned in the RV: 2-39-7.

Chalcolithic tools - Asmanmayii vaashii ( सवायसंयेन) - stone handaxe, aayasii vaaasii - metallic handaxe : RV 10-53-9

[Seyoan]

Originally Posted by kalkibhagwan

Wow so cool, when it comes to Hinduism everyone is eager to attack it..

looks like congress is doing it's job well

What has vedas to do with Hinduism?
Just curious, I have not seen any temple for Indra,Mitra,Vayu etc in India.
I do not see much mention of the popular Hindu gods in any of the vedas, why is that?

Is vedas the fountain head of hinduism or is vedas just based on their obscurity claims to be the genesis of hinduism.

Hindusim predates vedas, vedics where a bunch of people with specific belief system that tried to impose their faith on hindus but failed miserably and poor guys they become hindus themselves but still have not chucked of their religious texts (Just the 4 vedas).

Their created artificial language, sanskrit built its vocabulary by borrowing freely from the natural languages like prakrit and Tamil. But fanatics try to reverse this assimilation.

[desiyogi]

Originally Posted by Seyoan

What has vedas to do with Hinduism?
Just curious, I have not seen any temple for Indra,Mitra,Vayu etc in India.
I do not see much mention of the popular Hindu gods in any of the vedas, why is that?

Is vedas the fountain head of hinduism or is vedas just based on their obscurity claims to be the genesis of hinduism.

Hindusim predates vedas, vedics where a bunch of people with specific belief system that tried to impose their faith on hindus but failed miserably and poor guys they become hindus themselves but still have not chucked of their religious texts (Just the 4 vedas).

Their created artificial language, sanskrit built its vocabulary by borrowing freely from the natural languages like prakrit and Tamil. But fanatics try to reverse this assimilation.

From some guy in Yahoo answers. I am not liable for any inaccuracies.

" Jaysinh -- As I understand, Lord krisha was around 5000 years before, while Vedas are about 12000 years old. So there is no chance of Krishna to be in time of Vedas.

Vishnu is a one of the trio, remaining being Brahma and Shiva. So it is possible that Vishnu and other two, may have mention in Vedas.

I feel some thing more, personally. When Vedas were first time revealed to first listener, there was no written language. So knowledge of Vedas was passed on by mouth to mouth only, for many hundred years may be.

[probably that time communicating language was, without script known as Prakrit or, meaning natural, which may be sign language].

If this is possible, then 'Original uttered Vedas' must have undergone lots and lots of changes while passing on. So obviously chances are there of addtions and improvements and corrections.

So, later on when proper language was devised and Vedas were re written, Form of Veda was latest and popular obviously with changes and corrections and improvmeents.

These details are not possible to check or testify, but it is based on, just logical inference.

Now, with language devised, necters of Vedas knowledge is told to public, duly supported with stories etc. like Ramayana and Mahabharat and Bhagawat. Of course these stories were told or written based on curreent situation only..

So what is mentioned in Vedas, may not be found in later stories or what ever charecters are in Stories, may not be there in Vedas.

If my above staements are ok, then one can say that Krishna was not in time of Vedas and Vishnu may not be in time of Vedas [ with Prakrit language.]"

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question...8180916AAgPXSB