The Lost Vedic River Sarasvati - Page 7

barrykul · November 6th, 2012, 06:42 PM

More discoveries from Archaeology Survey of India about the Indus valley in Bhirrana (Haryana). Excavations of the Harappan mound located on the left bank of the dried up course of the river Saraswati at Bhirrana (Lat. 29 33’N. and Long. 75 33’E) are of immense significance. The excavation has shown that these early inhabitants of Bhirrana initially occupied the left bank of the river, Saraswati where its meander which runs from northeast to southwest with its thrust towards the north, provided a safe occupation zone. “On the basis of radio-metric dates from Bhirrana (Haryana), the cultural remains of the pre-early Harappan horizon go back to 7380 BC to 6201 BC.”

An unbroken four-foldcultural sequence as mentioned below has been brought to light.

Period IA: Hakra Wares Culture
Period IB: Early Harappan
Period IIA: Early Mature Harappan and
Period IIB: Mature Harappan

The same seals

Buildings. Please note the straight line and other geometrical shapes, well known by the Indus dwellers prior to Arabic book Ucli Des (aka Euclid) key to shapes.

circular granaries. note the perfect circle with bricks/stones in the 1:2:4 ratio.

pottery

arrow heads made of copper

copper bangles

beads

satchitananda · November 8th, 2012, 03:56 PM

SOURCE:

Is Brahmi the oldest script of India. The mysterious script of Indus Valley civilization, which is not deciphered yet may have some ancestral connection with Brahmi script can be deciphered in coming years.

A palm leaf manuscript discovered from Harappan site in Afghanistan has strengthened the belief of existence of a proto Brahmi script, which was used by Indus Valley people. This discussion was raised by Dr DP Sharma, Harappan archaeologist and director, Bharat Kala Bhawan, Banaras Hindu University (BHU) in the International Conference on Harappan Archaeology held recently in Chandigarh.

According to Sharma, who has carried out research works on the palm leaf manuscript with Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) for last five years, the palm leaf has Harappan as well as Kohi script engraved. "Kohi symbols and letters have an affinity with the Harappan script and hence can be very significant in the decipherment of Harappan scripts. At the same time the palm leave manuscript has seven lines, which is the longest script recovered from any Harappan site. So far the scripts or the signs of Indus Valley script engraved on tablets, seals, potteries and other objects had not more than 18 letters or pictures," informed Sharma.

Sharma also said, "The script on the palm leaf runs from right to left while Brahmi script runs from right to left. The objects discovered from excavation sites indicate that they were using two scripts as few objects have right to left run of the script while some objects have left to right written scripts. However, no traces of objects with bilingual scripts has been found so far of Harappan period, which suggests that there was only one script called Brahmi and the script that Harappan people used was an older form of Brahmi called 'proto Brahmi'. During the mature Harappan period (2700 BC to 2000 BC) the direction of Harappan writing system was right to left and later on around 2000 to 1500 BC they started their writing system from left to right. The existence of no long manuscript had posed the difficulty in deciphering the Harappan script, however, the manuscript on palm leaves may solve this problem".

Sharma further strengthens his argument by quoting the DNA analysis carried out by Dr Lalji Singh, vice-chancellor, BHU. According to Sharma, the analysis by Singh suggests that the two ancient races Aryan and Dravidians were native of India and none of them came outside of our country. The Aryan and Dravidian races in India have the same genetic basis. This suggests that proto Dravidian and proto Aryan races were present in Harappan population and Harappan were using proto Dravidian and Sanskrit as their language and their script was proto Brahmi only.

According to Sharma, during the conference, his research works in deciphering the Harappan scripts were also consolidated by BR Mani additional director general, ASI. "These new researches can help a great deal in deciphering the Harappan script and once the script is deciphered a number of mysterious seals, square pieces, pottery, coins and other objects can be read and hence we can know about their trade, literature, art and other aspects of civilization," informed Sharma.

skganji · November 10th, 2012, 12:15 AM

Is there an Image of this Palm script ?.

Licit Mortal · November 10th, 2012, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannan infratech

Hi

Go through Jayashree Saranathan's Blog.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=579

A treasure trove of information. Many are in Tamil, though.

She has also dealt with AIT in detail.

Thank you for sharing this. She also has many references to Prof. Nicholas Kazanas. A very good blog indeed.

skganji · December 11th, 2012, 10:02 PM

http://aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.c...se-from-india/

Excerpts from this article. Here is another article which puts AIT in dungeon. It is clear now that Rig-vedic Aryans are Indigenous to India and they never came from Europe nor did they bring the European horse to India. Shame on the scholars who are still perpetuating AIT inspite of all this evidence and shame on politicians and India who are trying to promote their own ideas about ancient India.

The DNA studies of horse shows that the Aryan-horse association is a myth, and that the horse was domesticated at many places. Archaeology shows that the Central Asians were late to use horse, say about 50 AD, and the Central Asian Bactria-Margiana-Archaeological Complex had no horse at all. Thus there was an archaeological disconnect between the Ukrainian and the South Asian horse domestications, meaning that horse was domesticated independently at the two places. This is consistent with the DNA findings.

Azzaroli (1985:94) noted that the Indian domestic caballus horse recovered from 1200 BCE horse burials at Katelai (Swat, India) belonged to the “eastern” breed which was different “from the Bronze and Iron Age horses of Eastern and Central Europe and recalls some horses from Etruscan tombs: presumably it belongs to some oriental strain.”.

Thus it becomes clear that the light horses originated from India and the European horses were heavy, the fact made clear by Azzaroli in his book. This fact accords well with the Burgman’s Rule, which states that the animal’s of colder regions have heavier body size.

At Imamgaon, 80 kilometers east of Poona, 20,000 years old radiocarbon dated level yielded wild animal skeletons including Equus namadicus and Equus sivalensis (Badam:413), the types belonging to “caballus” species. The latter breed was ancestral to many of the domesticated horse lineages of today like the Arabic horse and the Thoroughbred horse (vide infra). Equus caballus, hemionus and other species have been found from Aq Kupruk of Afghanistan dating back from 8,000 to 16,000 BP (Meadow:25-26). Wild true horse bones were found from 20,000 BP strata of Bolan and Son valleys (G.R. Sharma:110 ff.; Kazanas 1999:33-34), and domesticated horse bones from dates 8500 BP and 6500 BP of the Bolan and Son valleys (Sharma:110 ff.).

A DNA study of the Spiti horses of the Himachal Pradesh showed that this domesticated breed of the “true horse” has been well in place in the region for a very long time, much before the assumed date of Aryan Invasion on India (Chauhan et al). This finding is consistent with other studies demonstrating that the Indian sivalensis horse gave birth to many horse lineages of India and abroad.

This is the reason why we get more importance of horse in the Vedic literature, but the importance of cattle increases as Vedic society moved towards greater pastoralism and agriculture. Hence Kazanas (2009) is correct in his assessment that the Indus Valley civilization, a largely farming society with much less emphasis on horse, was a post-Rig-vedic society. By this evidence we may say that the earliest portion of the Rig-Veda is a transformation zone from hunting to pastoral society, which we call Mesolithic in archaeological terminology.

The BMAC (Bactria-Margiana-Archaeological Complex, 4300-3700 BP) is the southern Central Asian cultural complex. It has been found that there was no horse in the BMAC (Witzel 2003:7 of 12, pdf). No horse related furniture has been found. This clearly rules out any migration of horse or horse riding Aryans from this route to Iran or India. Clearly Indian antiquity of horse is older than that of the Central Asia. That means horse was domesticated in India and Ukrainian steppe independently of each other

satchitananda · December 11th, 2012, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skganji

Shame on the scholars who are still perpetuating AIT inspite of all this evidence and shame on politicians and India who are trying to promote their own ideas about ancient India.

The interest groups focussing on AIT and keeping it alive are not merely scholars or politicians.. There is a bigger more powerful group which keeps it alive.. proselytizers ... The AIT was manufactured to aid this group and today they are the main benefeciaries and perpetuators of mythical AIT.

Time to nail the coffin on both....

***kannan infratech*** · December 12th, 2012, 09:36 AM

http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/

SATURDAY, DECEMBER 8, 2012

Brazen attempt by a Christian Father to convert a Vedic scholar – reader Ramanathan recalls his horrible experience.

Regular readers of this blogspot must be aware of our learned reader cum contributor of articles on Vedic Yajnas, Mr Ramanathan. A traditional follower of Vedic customs and life style, this young scholar met with a strange experience of being coaxed by a Christian priest to convert to Christianity. When none of his arguments could succeed, he retorted by asking why our scholar was worshiping Shiva in spite of he being an Aryan!!!!

Read on to know what he replied….

Musings on the "Dravidian" god shiva

By

Ramanathan Ramakrishnan.

This is not yet another article on the Aryan/Dravidian debated. It is due to some personal experiences I write this. As a layman in history, the Aryan invasion theory and its polemics were a non-entity to me. I remember studying in my 6th class (in 1986) history text book the following, what sounds now to me too ridiculous.

1. A group of people called the Aryans came thundering down the Khyber Pass and invaded India, which was originally inhabited by the ancestors of the present Dravidians (who were sophisticated urban people).

2. They were pastoral tribals and had little culture (but a sophisticated language???) and wandered on the Eurasian steppes on horses prior to the invasions. They drank Soma and Sura and in their drunken stupor wrote primitive praises to natural gods, which was the Rig veda.

3. When they invaded India they came on horse drawn chariots with iron spoke wheels and Iron weapons (???). As per Witzel (whom I came to read about only recently, as will be explained going further) these thundering chariots struck terror in the poor Harappans. Though the Harappans had sophisticated & highly planned towns, they did not have horses and chariots and no Iron weapons. They had only bullock carts with solid wheels!!!. Thus they were no match for the Aryans and were routed. From that fateful day the entire Bharath was overwhelmed by tribal soma drinking Aryans!!!.

I studied all these with a view to just pass exams and all these childish theories had no personal impact on my personal life. Also as a part of being born and brought up in Madurai in Tamil-Nadu, I also witnessed many street corner meetings conducted by the D.K (Dravidiar Kazhagam). In these meetings, the "Bread and Butter" speeches of the speakers were invariably against the "Aryaa Parpanargal (Iyers)" and their "Cunning ploys" and how they screwed up things and made life miserable in TN. This was a practical example of the impact the theory had. But even here I did not care and it had no impact on me at all. In fact one of the boys in my street had an uncle who spoke in those meetings. I even met him a couple of times at this boy's house and he spoke very jovially and sounded friendly. So to me the Aryan invasion theory and Aryan/Dravidian divide meant nothing.

I did not care to follow all the debates and discussions from my school days till as recently as last week. I had never really known names like Romila Thapar, Irfan Habib, Witzel, Rajaram, Mahadevan Irawadam and so on. It was last week when I was going to a friend's wedding in Trivandrum from Bangalore that my interest in this theory was piqued up. It happened in this way.

On the railway journey a Christian father who sat opposite to my seat got into a chat with me.
It started with small talk: Who I was?,
What was my Name and Native?.
What was my profession?.
Well "you seem to be a smart young man, are'nt you?" kind of stuff.

All this seemed to be unnatural to me. Then as I suspected the million dollar question came.
"Why don't you believe in "Jesus" as your savior and redeem yourself from sin?.".
I said I was not interested, thank you. But he would not have no for an answer and continued saying that he understood and sympathized with me. I was a confused Hindu.

He condescended to "understand" that since we Hindus worshipped 33 million "False" gods I was not clearly understanding "Christ" and his love.
At this, I got a little irritated and asked him that if Christians only believed in one god and one savior and one book and one heaven, why the hell were there innumerable denominations like Catholics, protestants, Lutherans, Mormons etc?.

It is natural to have such conflicts in "polytheistic" religions like Hinduism with 4 vedas, 2 Ithihasas and 18 puranas, but why, in the "Only true" religion?.
Why one sect did not respect the other?.

For example as per the Seventh day Adventists Sabbath is not on Sunday but Saturday. Also the pope says that the Roman Catholic faith is the only true faith for salvation and he does not accept the Anglican Church.
In England and Europe either the Catholics persecuted the Protestants at some period and in some other periods it was the reverse.
Also in the US the Mormons are not a recognized proper Christian denomination.

This irritated him and out of the blue he asked me "Why was a Vedic Aryan Brahmin (I have a shika & study the yajur veda) like me, worshipping Shiva (I had ashes on my forehead), a Dravidian god?".

This totally stumped me. Shiva a Dravidian god?. None of my elders told me this. None of my friends (Brahmin or otherwise) considered me an Aryan.
Then I asked him what gods he thought as Aryan.

He told that It was mainly Indra, Vishnu, varuna etc who were Aryan and he was categorical in stating Shiva as Dravidian.

I asked him what about Rudra?. This god appears in the Vedic hymns frequently?. He said that Rudra was not shiva and Shiva was a Dravidian god.

Now this statement made me take up the study of the entire Aryan Invasion theory(AIT) on the net the entire last week. During this I came to know about the names I mentioned at the top. As far as I read, this theory is slowly getting debunked by multipronged evidence. But the AIT has changed to AMT(Aryan migration), trickle migration and what not!!!. One queerer thing I found is the language spoken by the Aryans before invasion. It seems to be called PIE (Proto Indo European). This language also seems to be as fictitious as the Aryans themselves. Looks like the AIT is slowly out on its way into oblivion

Some fundamental doubts

But before this I want to understand some points in the AIT debate that are not answered clearly. Some help needed here. AIT scholars?

1. Why are western Indologists only obsessed about the Rig veda alone and not the Yajur veda or the samans?. They consider these "later" which means it is un-important?. The Rig Veda has a very advanced Sacrificial culture in it. In fact all the 3 Vedas mention each other within themselves and I do not see why one is less or more. Traditional scholars, who have dedicated their lives for Vedic study, do not say that the Rig is better than the Yajus or vice versa. Has the opinion of traditional Vedic teachers who really have lived a Vedic life and breath it, ever been collected?. As far as I know each veda is functionally different that's it.

2. How did Max Muller date the Vedas?. I read that is was based on linguistic conjectures. Some conjectures and speculations based on the rate at which language usage changes. Also some biblical events seemed to have influenced him. Has there ever been any real Mathematical/Scientific dating done by him?.

3. Did Max Muller ever come to India to get an experience of Indian culture?. Yes according to some and no according to some others. I had the opportunity to talk to Rig vedic Ganapaatis who have studied it with all 6 Veda Angas. They all say that one of the worse Bhashyas they ever read was Max Mullers. In many ways it violates standard grammer rules and Swara rules is what they say.

4. Why would in the first place the Aryans choose to migrate? Any drastic changes in living conditions in their primary homeland?.

5. Has there been any archeological evidences for such a migration?.

6. As for this mythical PIE, has any piece of literature in this language found?

7. Last not least, how could a primitive Aryan race who just herded cattle riding on horses in the steppes produce such prodigious volumes of literature, whose quality is unparalleled in any civilization yet?. On the other hand the sophisticated urban dwelling Harappans did not have any great literature. All so contradicting.

Is shiva really a Dravidian god?.

I have some knowledge of the Yajur veda and the Rig veda. With that I started analyzing this statement. The only reason which I saw why Lord Shiva is not accepted as an Aryan gods is that the word "Shiva" does not appear in the Rig veda but only the term "Rudra" occurs.

But the Yajur Veda has Shiva repeating multiple times as Rudra's equivalent. Why on earth based on this on word alone should this be denied?. And also why would the Yajus be rejected here?. Also some suggest "Siva" & "Shambu" originated from Tamizh words "Sivappu" and "Chembu". But I do not think it is right because there is a distinct difference in the "Sha" consonant which is an Ushma consonant from Sanskrit grammer. "Chembu" would use "Cha", which is distinct from "Sha".
God knows how one was derived from the other. So based on the non-occurrence of "Shiva" in the Rig Veda alone Shiva is called a Dravidian god.

Also since Vishnu was an Aryan god I started looking into the Shaiva-Vaishnava debates and what they had to say about this. Nowhere did I find that Shaivaites reject Vishnu because he is an Aryan god. Or Vaishnavaites reject Shiva saying he is a Dravidian god. The entire debate is based on either the deeds of the gods based on the puranas and their appearences. Also some vaishnavaites claim that the word "Shiva" in the vedas, did not mean "Rudra". But it meant "Auspiciousness". Since Shiva was a god who hobnobbed with ghosts from the graveyard he cannot be auspicious. Thus nowhere in the Shaiva & Vaishnava rivalry we this Aryan/Dravidian divide.

Also the Thillai Vaazh Andanar (Ancint saivite Brahmins in Chidambaram) study the veda seriously. They are also staunch Shaivites. They don't say Vedas or Vishnu is Aryan or Shiva was Dravidian. They say Vishnu was one of the minor deities with Shiva being the supreme.

Tamizh Shaivite saints like Gnanasambandar have sung
"Long live righteous Vedic Brahmins, whose penance are needed for a proper bountiful rainfall. Long live the king to protect dharma. Let the name of Hara spread". As seen here he does not consider Brahmins "Aryan" and shiva a "Dravidian" god. He himself was a shaivite Brahmin and his father had performed a Vedic soma sacrifice. All the 4 great shaivaite saints have sungs very beautiful and highly devotional songs on shiva but none disparage the vedas as Aryan.

Now consider the "Divyaprabandam". It consists of 4000 beautiful hymns packed with devotion to Vishnu. It was considered as Tamizh Vedam. One of the composers was a devotee called Nammazhvar who belonged to the fourth Varna. As per the Aryan Dravidian divide he should be Dravidian. But he composed this wonderful work and compares it with the Vedas. He a "Shudra" singing praises of an Aryan god?

This also goes to show that the 4th Varna did not think of themselves as Dravidians and were separate from Aryans. In the same mould are Thirupanazhwar, who was outside the pale of the four castes. He was highly devoted to Vishnu. He did not consider himself an Adivasi.

Also one more point quoted here is that a "Linga" was found in the Harappan civilization. This proves that it was Dravidian as this "Linga" worship is predominant in the south. But in the Mahanarayana Upanishad of the Krishna Yajur Veda, there is a mantra beginning with "Nidhanapathayee namaha" and ending with "Sarvalingam sthapayati pani mantram pavithram". This is a mantra for linga pratishta. So where is linga worship absent in the Veda?.

In innumerable shiva temples in Tamil Nadu (all the ones in the Nava kailasam temple series on the Thamiraparani), the lord is named "Kailasa Nathar". If shiva was Dravidian why is he named after a place, northern most in India?

Also the Shiva yogi Thirumoola who composed the great "Thirumandiram" of 3000 verses, says that he was a yogi in the Himalayas and Nandikeshvara's shishya. The Thirumandiram is a canonical Shaivite text in Tamizh. Why would they want to choose a book written by a person from the "Aryan" North?.

Also reference to shiva with his consort Ambika occurs in the Yajur veda samhita frequently.
Also again in the Yajur Veda there is a reference to shiva wearing a tiger cloth and having pinaka club In hand.

Also sometimes Rudra is extolled as Agni and Agni as Rudra in the Yajur veda. Sometimes Indra too danced as Shiva of the puranas.

Conclusions

All these show that shiva was never a Dravidian god or Vishnu Aryan or vice versa. There is no scriptural (Vedic or Agamic) evidence for this. It was just that the father I mentioned above was quoting blindly, something he read somewhere and did not understand. He just wanted to confuse me. The Aryan/Dravidian theory refuses to die fast and it is been exploited by missionaries to the hilt for conversion by resorting to theories of 19th century "Imperialistic", "Missionary minded" Indologists.

Pakdubai · December 12th, 2012, 09:53 PM

proto indo european originated in central asia, they migrated to present day northern pakistan/kashmir region and this is where bulk of the rig vedas and rig vedic culture were formed

^ this is the view of most of the international historians and is proven by genetic tests, as-well as linguistic tests

skganji · December 12th, 2012, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakdubai

proto indo european originated in central asia, they migrated to present day northern pakistan/kashmir region and this is where bulk of the rig vedas and rig vedic culture were formed

^ this is the view of most of the international historians and is proven by genetic tests, as-well as linguistic tests

Big B.S. Neither the horse-evidence ( Equus Sivalenis as discussed in Priyadarshis article in my previous post) nor the rig-vedic evidence prove this fraud perpetuated by internation historians. The Indian horse ( Marwari type) is clearly a descendant of Equus Sivalenis and not a steppe horse.
The rig-vedic geography is haryana, punjab ( mostly pakistan and noth-west India). Not a single place in Rigveda talks about Central Asia. Morever , bulk of Rigveda is composed by 3,400 B.C as Kazanas had pointed out. Rig-veda doesn't know Brick, cotton and rice which are extensively used in IVC. Saraswati as mentioned in several books of Rig veda ceased to be a mighty river by 3400 BCE.

Pakdubai · December 12th, 2012, 11:26 PM

^ the rigveda was composed in what is mostly pakistan, but what I am talking about is (aryans). The proto aryans came from central asia, so the aryans were not native to india as most hindus seem to claim.

desiyogi · December 12th, 2012, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakdubai

^ the rigveda was composed in what is mostly pakistan, but what I am talking about is (aryans). The proto aryans came from central asia, so the aryans were not native to india as most hindus seem to claim.

There was no concept of Pakistan before 1947.The region comprising what is now Pakistan was part of a homgenous region with northern India but as a relentless troll you already know that.

skganji · December 12th, 2012, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakdubai

^ the rigveda was composed in what is mostly pakistan, but what I am talking about is (aryans). The proto aryans came from central asia, so the aryans were not native to india as most hindus seem to claim.

Not just pakistan, but also Haryana and Punjab. Rigveda clearly talks about Yamuna river and in the last book it talks about River Ganga too. Clearly it is not jus limited to Pakistan.

इमं मे गङगे यमुने सरस्वति शुतुद्रि सतेमं सचता परुष्ण्या |
असिक्न्या मरुद्व्र्धे वितस्तयार्जीकीये शर्णुह्यासुषोमया ||

Not a single hymn in Rigveda talks about Central Asia. The Rigvedic Aryans in one of the Hymns clearly say that their ancestors ( proto-Aryans) always performed sacrifices in this holy land of Saptha-Sindhu.
The Yadavas were heavily associated with river Yamuna just as the Bharathas are associated with river Sarasvati.

Pakdubai · December 12th, 2012, 11:40 PM

Desiyogi only punjab was, not areas further north like Peshawar/Swat and the dardic areas, they have nothing to do with indian culture, yet we find that the earliest rig vedic texts come from the that region.

Pakdubai · December 12th, 2012, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skganji

Not just pakistan, but also Haryana and Punjab. Rigveda clearly talks about Yamuna river and in the last book it talks about River Ganga too. Clearly it is not jus limited to Pakistan.

इमं मे गङगे यमुने सरस्वति शुतुद्रि सतेमं सचता परुष्ण्या |
असिक्न्या मरुद्व्र्धे वितस्तयार्जीकीये शर्णुह्यासुषोमया ||

Not a single hymn in Rigveda talks about Central Asia. The Rigvedic Aryans in one of the Hymns clearly say that their ancestors ( proto-Aryans) always performed sacrifices in this holy land of Saptha-Sindhu.

ganga is only mentioned once or twice, while the rivers in northern pakistan are mentioned over 25 times.

btw this is very interesting article that sheds some light: http://www.oocities.org/pak_history/nonhindu.html

^ the earliest vedic people mostly had nothing to do with modern ganga hindus

desiyogi · December 12th, 2012, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakdubai

ganga is only mentioned once or twice, while the rivers in northern pakistan are mentioned over 25 times.

btw this is very interesting article that sheds some light: http://www.oocities.org/pak_history/nonhindu.html

^ the earliest vedic people mostly had nothing to do with modern ganga hindus

Your sources are a joke.
Seriously!! an Ooocities website made by a pro Islamist.

Pakistanis will do whatever possible to cut off their link with India.

skganji · December 13th, 2012, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakdubai

ganga is only mentioned once or twice, while the rivers in northern pakistan are mentioned over 25 times.

btw this is very interesting article that sheds some light: http://www.oocities.org/pak_history/nonhindu.html

^ the earliest vedic people mostly had nothing to do with modern ganga hindus

let us not start a Indo-Pak war here. Clearly Rigvedic area is vast. Its geography stretches all way in the east to Alamgirpur. It is not just confined to Pakistan. Half of Gujarat is part of the Rig-Vedic domain.

Pakdubai · December 13th, 2012, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desiyogi

Your sources are a joke.
Seriously!! an Ooocities website made by a pro Islamist.

Pakistanis will do whatever possible to cut off their link with India.

what are your sources? hindu nationalist websites? to you every thing came from india, which is the biggest joke ever

all my other sources are credible, this one I used because it has some interesting points

Pakdubai · December 13th, 2012, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skganji

let us not start a Indo-Pak war here. Clearly Rigvedic area is vast. Its geography stretches all way in the east to Alamgirpur. It is not just confined to Pakistan. Half of Gujarat is part of the Rig-Vedic domain.

it doesn't matter where the rivers are, the point is aryans themselves came from central asia, not your ganga india, the genetics prove this and also linguistic evidence proves this, they might have wrote rig vedas when they were settled in the Pakistan area, but their origin was definably outside south asia and defiantly not your ganga indian culture

satchitananda · December 13th, 2012, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakdubai

it doesn't matter where the rivers are, the point is aryans themselves came from central asia, not your ganga india, the genetics prove this and also linguistic evidence proves this, they might have wrote rig vedas when they were settled in the Pakistan area, but their origin was definably outside south asia and defiantly not your ganga indian culture

Thanks for the enlightenment.. I feel like someone came down from the mountains with a handheld piece of tablet.. This thread is more focussed on info and not opinions.. Please take your opinions to Chai Bar.. Thanks..

Pakdubai · December 13th, 2012, 05:49 PM

^ non of the historians say it like that, indo aryans came to what is pakistan now and settled there, just like the (mughals) or anybody else that came from central asia, after settling they started to develop the (vedic) culture, again you just have to look at the non hindu nationalist sources and you will find all the answers.

November 6th, 2012, 06:42 PM	#121
barrykul Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,864 Likes (Received): 50	More discoveries from Archaeology Survey of India about the Indus valley in Bhirrana (Haryana). Excavations of the Harappan mound located on the left bank of the dried up course of the river Saraswati at Bhirrana (Lat. 29 33’N. and Long. 75 33’E) are of immense significance. The excavation has shown that these early inhabitants of Bhirrana initially occupied the left bank of the river, Saraswati where its meander which runs from northeast to southwest with its thrust towards the north, provided a safe occupation zone. “On the basis of radio-metric dates from Bhirrana (Haryana), the cultural remains of the pre-early Harappan horizon go back to 7380 BC to 6201 BC.” An unbroken four-foldcultural sequence as mentioned below has been brought to light. Period IA: Hakra Wares Culture Period IB: Early Harappan Period IIA: Early Mature Harappan and Period IIB: Mature Harappan The same seals Buildings. Please note the straight line and other geometrical shapes, well known by the Indus dwellers prior to Arabic book Ucli Des (aka Euclid) key to shapes. circular granaries. note the perfect circle with bricks/stones in the 1:2:4 ratio. pottery arrow heads made of copper copper bangles beads __________________ Renewable Energy .. Last edited by barrykul; November 6th, 2012 at 06:50 PM.

November 8th, 2012, 03:56 PM	#122
satchitananda Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,308 Likes (Received): 177	Harappan people used an older form of Brahmi script: Expert SOURCE: Is Brahmi the oldest script of India. The mysterious script of Indus Valley civilization, which is not deciphered yet may have some ancestral connection with Brahmi script can be deciphered in coming years. A palm leaf manuscript discovered from Harappan site in Afghanistan has strengthened the belief of existence of a proto Brahmi script, which was used by Indus Valley people. This discussion was raised by Dr DP Sharma, Harappan archaeologist and director, Bharat Kala Bhawan, Banaras Hindu University (BHU) in the International Conference on Harappan Archaeology held recently in Chandigarh. According to Sharma, who has carried out research works on the palm leaf manuscript with Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) for last five years, the palm leaf has Harappan as well as Kohi script engraved. "Kohi symbols and letters have an affinity with the Harappan script and hence can be very significant in the decipherment of Harappan scripts. At the same time the palm leave manuscript has seven lines, which is the longest script recovered from any Harappan site. So far the scripts or the signs of Indus Valley script engraved on tablets, seals, potteries and other objects had not more than 18 letters or pictures," informed Sharma. Sharma also said, "The script on the palm leaf runs from right to left while Brahmi script runs from right to left. The objects discovered from excavation sites indicate that they were using two scripts as few objects have right to left run of the script while some objects have left to right written scripts. However, no traces of objects with bilingual scripts has been found so far of Harappan period, which suggests that there was only one script called Brahmi and the script that Harappan people used was an older form of Brahmi called 'proto Brahmi'. During the mature Harappan period (2700 BC to 2000 BC) the direction of Harappan writing system was right to left and later on around 2000 to 1500 BC they started their writing system from left to right. The existence of no long manuscript had posed the difficulty in deciphering the Harappan script, however, the manuscript on palm leaves may solve this problem". Sharma further strengthens his argument by quoting the DNA analysis carried out by Dr Lalji Singh, vice-chancellor, BHU. According to Sharma, the analysis by Singh suggests that the two ancient races Aryan and Dravidians were native of India and none of them came outside of our country. The Aryan and Dravidian races in India have the same genetic basis. This suggests that proto Dravidian and proto Aryan races were present in Harappan population and Harappan were using proto Dravidian and Sanskrit as their language and their script was proto Brahmi only. According to Sharma, during the conference, his research works in deciphering the Harappan scripts were also consolidated by BR Mani additional director general, ASI. "These new researches can help a great deal in deciphering the Harappan script and once the script is deciphered a number of mysterious seals, square pieces, pottery, coins and other objects can be read and hence we can know about their trade, literature, art and other aspects of civilization," informed Sharma.

December 11th, 2012, 10:02 PM	#125
skganji Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Irvine Posts: 633 Likes (Received): 18	http://aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.c...se-from-india/ Excerpts from this article. Here is another article which puts AIT in dungeon. It is clear now that Rig-vedic Aryans are Indigenous to India and they never came from Europe nor did they bring the European horse to India. Shame on the scholars who are still perpetuating AIT inspite of all this evidence and shame on politicians and India who are trying to promote their own ideas about ancient India. The DNA studies of horse shows that the Aryan-horse association is a myth, and that the horse was domesticated at many places. Archaeology shows that the Central Asians were late to use horse, say about 50 AD, and the Central Asian Bactria-Margiana-Archaeological Complex had no horse at all. Thus there was an archaeological disconnect between the Ukrainian and the South Asian horse domestications, meaning that horse was domesticated independently at the two places. This is consistent with the DNA findings. Azzaroli (1985:94) noted that the Indian domestic caballus horse recovered from 1200 BCE horse burials at Katelai (Swat, India) belonged to the “eastern” breed which was different “from the Bronze and Iron Age horses of Eastern and Central Europe and recalls some horses from Etruscan tombs: presumably it belongs to some oriental strain.”. Thus it becomes clear that the light horses originated from India and the European horses were heavy, the fact made clear by Azzaroli in his book. This fact accords well with the Burgman’s Rule, which states that the animal’s of colder regions have heavier body size. At Imamgaon, 80 kilometers east of Poona, 20,000 years old radiocarbon dated level yielded wild animal skeletons including Equus namadicus and Equus sivalensis (Badam:413), the types belonging to “caballus” species. The latter breed was ancestral to many of the domesticated horse lineages of today like the Arabic horse and the Thoroughbred horse (vide infra). Equus caballus, hemionus and other species have been found from Aq Kupruk of Afghanistan dating back from 8,000 to 16,000 BP (Meadow:25-26). Wild true horse bones were found from 20,000 BP strata of Bolan and Son valleys (G.R. Sharma:110 ff.; Kazanas 1999:33-34), and *domesticated horse bones from dates 8500 BP and 6500 BP of the Bolan and Son valleys* (Sharma:110 ff.). A DNA study of the Spiti horses of the Himachal Pradesh showed that this domesticated breed of the “true horse” has been well in place in the region for a very long time, much before the assumed date of Aryan Invasion on India (Chauhan et al). This finding is consistent with other studies demonstrating that the Indian sivalensis horse gave birth to many horse lineages of India and abroad. This is the reason why we get more importance of horse in the Vedic literature, but the importance of cattle increases as Vedic society moved towards greater pastoralism and agriculture. *Hence Kazanas (2009) is correct in his assessment that the Indus Valley civilization, a largely farming society with much less emphasis on horse, was a post-Rig-vedic society. By this evidence we may say that the earliest portion of the Rig-Veda is a transformation zone from hunting to pastoral society, which we call Mesolithic in archaeological terminology. The BMAC (Bactria-Margiana-Archaeological Complex, 4300-3700 BP) is the southern Central Asian cultural complex. It has been found that there was no horse in the BMAC (Witzel 2003:7 of 12, pdf). No horse related furniture has been found. This clearly rules out any migration of horse or horse riding Aryans from this route to Iran or India. Clearly Indian antiquity of horse is older than that of the Central Asia.* That means horse was domesticated in India and Ukrainian steppe independently of each other Last edited by skganji; December 11th, 2012 at 10:41 PM.

December 12th, 2012, 09:36 AM	#127
*kannan infratech* Moderator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: chennai Posts: 8,023 Likes (Received): 649	http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/ SATURDAY, DECEMBER 8, 2012 Brazen attempt by a Christian Father to convert a Vedic scholar – reader Ramanathan recalls his horrible experience. Regular readers of this blogspot must be aware of our learned reader cum contributor of articles on Vedic Yajnas, Mr Ramanathan. A traditional follower of Vedic customs and life style, this young scholar met with a strange experience of being coaxed by a Christian priest to convert to Christianity. When none of his arguments could succeed, he retorted by asking why our scholar was worshiping Shiva in spite of he being an Aryan!!!! Read on to know what he replied…. Musings on the "Dravidian" god shiva By Ramanathan Ramakrishnan. This is not yet another article on the Aryan/Dravidian debated. It is due to some personal experiences I write this. As a layman in history, the Aryan invasion theory and its polemics were a non-entity to me. I remember studying in my 6th class (in 1986) history text book the following, what sounds now to me too ridiculous. 1. A group of people called the Aryans came thundering down the Khyber Pass and invaded India, which was originally inhabited by the ancestors of the present Dravidians (who were sophisticated urban people). 2. They were pastoral tribals and had little culture (but a sophisticated language???) and wandered on the Eurasian steppes on horses prior to the invasions. They drank Soma and Sura and in their drunken stupor wrote primitive praises to natural gods, which was the Rig veda. 3. When they invaded India they came on horse drawn chariots with iron spoke wheels and Iron weapons (???). As per Witzel (whom I came to read about only recently, as will be explained going further) these thundering chariots struck terror in the poor Harappans. Though the Harappans had sophisticated & highly planned towns, they did not have horses and chariots and no Iron weapons. They had only bullock carts with solid wheels!!!. Thus they were no match for the Aryans and were routed. From that fateful day the entire Bharath was overwhelmed by tribal soma drinking Aryans!!!. I studied all these with a view to just pass exams and all these childish theories had no personal impact on my personal life. Also as a part of being born and brought up in Madurai in Tamil-Nadu, I also witnessed many street corner meetings conducted by the D.K (Dravidiar Kazhagam). In these meetings, the "Bread and Butter" speeches of the speakers were invariably against the "Aryaa Parpanargal (Iyers)" and their "Cunning ploys" and how they screwed up things and made life miserable in TN. This was a practical example of the impact the theory had. But even here I did not care and it had no impact on me at all. In fact one of the boys in my street had an uncle who spoke in those meetings. I even met him a couple of times at this boy's house and he spoke very jovially and sounded friendly. So to me the Aryan invasion theory and Aryan/Dravidian divide meant nothing. I did not care to follow all the debates and discussions from my school days till as recently as last week. I had never really known names like Romila Thapar, Irfan Habib, Witzel, Rajaram, Mahadevan Irawadam and so on. It was last week when I was going to a friend's wedding in Trivandrum from Bangalore that my interest in this theory was piqued up. It happened in this way. On the railway journey a Christian father who sat opposite to my seat got into a chat with me. It started with small talk: Who I was?, What was my Name and Native?. What was my profession?. Well "you seem to be a smart young man, are'nt you?" kind of stuff. All this seemed to be unnatural to me. Then as I suspected the million dollar question came. "Why don't you believe in "Jesus" as your savior and redeem yourself from sin?.". I said I was not interested, thank you. But he would not have no for an answer and continued saying that he understood and sympathized with me. I was a confused Hindu. He condescended to "understand" that since we Hindus worshipped 33 million "False" gods I was not clearly understanding "Christ" and his love. At this, I got a little irritated and asked him that if Christians only believed in one god and one savior and one book and one heaven, why the hell were there innumerable denominations like Catholics, protestants, Lutherans, Mormons etc?. It is natural to have such conflicts in "polytheistic" religions like Hinduism with 4 vedas, 2 Ithihasas and 18 puranas, but why, in the "Only true" religion?. Why one sect did not respect the other?. For example as per the Seventh day Adventists Sabbath is not on Sunday but Saturday. Also the pope says that the Roman Catholic faith is the only true faith for salvation and he does not accept the Anglican Church. In England and Europe either the Catholics persecuted the Protestants at some period and in some other periods it was the reverse. Also in the US the Mormons are not a recognized proper Christian denomination. This irritated him and out of the blue he asked me "Why was a Vedic Aryan Brahmin (I have a shika & study the yajur veda) like me, worshipping Shiva (I had ashes on my forehead), a Dravidian god?". This totally stumped me. Shiva a Dravidian god?. None of my elders told me this. None of my friends (Brahmin or otherwise) considered me an Aryan. Then I asked him what gods he thought as Aryan. He told that It was mainly Indra, Vishnu, varuna etc who were Aryan and he was categorical in stating Shiva as Dravidian. I asked him what about Rudra?. This god appears in the Vedic hymns frequently?. He said that Rudra was not shiva and Shiva was a Dravidian god. Now this statement made me take up the study of the entire Aryan Invasion theory(AIT) on the net the entire last week. During this I came to know about the names I mentioned at the top. As far as I read, this theory is slowly getting debunked by multipronged evidence. But the AIT has changed to AMT(Aryan migration), trickle migration and what not!!!. One queerer thing I found is the language spoken by the Aryans before invasion. It seems to be called PIE (Proto Indo European). This language also seems to be as fictitious as the Aryans themselves. Looks like the AIT is slowly out on its way into oblivion Some fundamental doubts But before this I want to understand some points in the AIT debate that are not answered clearly. Some help needed here. AIT scholars? 1. Why are western Indologists only obsessed about the Rig veda alone and not the Yajur veda or the samans?. They consider these "later" which means it is un-important?. The Rig Veda has a very advanced Sacrificial culture in it. In fact all the 3 Vedas mention each other within themselves and I do not see why one is less or more. Traditional scholars, who have dedicated their lives for Vedic study, do not say that the Rig is better than the Yajus or vice versa. Has the opinion of traditional Vedic teachers who really have lived a Vedic life and breath it, ever been collected?. As far as I know each veda is functionally different that's it. 2. How did Max Muller date the Vedas?. I read that is was based on linguistic conjectures. Some conjectures and speculations based on the rate at which language usage changes. Also some biblical events seemed to have influenced him. Has there ever been any real Mathematical/Scientific dating done by him?. 3. Did Max Muller ever come to India to get an experience of Indian culture?. Yes according to some and no according to some others. I had the opportunity to talk to Rig vedic Ganapaatis who have studied it with all 6 Veda Angas. They all say that one of the worse Bhashyas they ever read was Max Mullers. In many ways it violates standard grammer rules and Swara rules is what they say. 4. Why would in the first place the Aryans choose to migrate? Any drastic changes in living conditions in their primary homeland?. 5. Has there been any archeological evidences for such a migration?. 6. As for this mythical PIE, has any piece of literature in this language found? 7. Last not least, how could a primitive Aryan race who just herded cattle riding on horses in the steppes produce such prodigious volumes of literature, whose quality is unparalleled in any civilization yet?. On the other hand the sophisticated urban dwelling Harappans did not have any great literature. All so contradicting. Is shiva really a Dravidian god?. I have some knowledge of the Yajur veda and the Rig veda. With that I started analyzing this statement. The only reason which I saw why Lord Shiva is not accepted as an Aryan gods is that the word "Shiva" does not appear in the Rig veda but only the term "Rudra" occurs. But the Yajur Veda has Shiva repeating multiple times as Rudra's equivalent. Why on earth based on this on word alone should this be denied?. And also why would the Yajus be rejected here?. Also some suggest "Siva" & "Shambu" originated from Tamizh words "Sivappu" and "Chembu". But I do not think it is right because there is a distinct difference in the "Sha" consonant which is an Ushma consonant from Sanskrit grammer. "Chembu" would use "Cha", which is distinct from "Sha". God knows how one was derived from the other. So based on the non-occurrence of "Shiva" in the Rig Veda alone Shiva is called a Dravidian god. Also since Vishnu was an Aryan god I started looking into the Shaiva-Vaishnava debates and what they had to say about this. Nowhere did I find that Shaivaites reject Vishnu because he is an Aryan god. Or Vaishnavaites reject Shiva saying he is a Dravidian god. The entire debate is based on either the deeds of the gods based on the puranas and their appearences. Also some vaishnavaites claim that the word "Shiva" in the vedas, did not mean "Rudra". But it meant "Auspiciousness". Since Shiva was a god who hobnobbed with ghosts from the graveyard he cannot be auspicious. Thus nowhere in the Shaiva & Vaishnava rivalry we this Aryan/Dravidian divide. Also the Thillai Vaazh Andanar (Ancint saivite Brahmins in Chidambaram) study the veda seriously. They are also staunch Shaivites. They don't say Vedas or Vishnu is Aryan or Shiva was Dravidian. They say Vishnu was one of the minor deities with Shiva being the supreme. Tamizh Shaivite saints like Gnanasambandar have sung "Long live righteous Vedic Brahmins, whose penance are needed for a proper bountiful rainfall. Long live the king to protect dharma. Let the name of Hara spread". As seen here he does not consider Brahmins "Aryan" and shiva a "Dravidian" god. He himself was a shaivite Brahmin and his father had performed a Vedic soma sacrifice. All the 4 great shaivaite saints have sungs very beautiful and highly devotional songs on shiva but none disparage the vedas as Aryan. Now consider the "Divyaprabandam". It consists of 4000 beautiful hymns packed with devotion to Vishnu. It was considered as Tamizh Vedam. One of the composers was a devotee called Nammazhvar who belonged to the fourth Varna. As per the Aryan Dravidian divide he should be Dravidian. But he composed this wonderful work and compares it with the Vedas. He a "Shudra" singing praises of an Aryan god? This also goes to show that the 4th Varna did not think of themselves as Dravidians and were separate from Aryans. In the same mould are Thirupanazhwar, who was outside the pale of the four castes. He was highly devoted to Vishnu. He did not consider himself an Adivasi. Also one more point quoted here is that a "Linga" was found in the Harappan civilization. This proves that it was Dravidian as this "Linga" worship is predominant in the south. But in the Mahanarayana Upanishad of the Krishna Yajur Veda, there is a mantra beginning with "Nidhanapathayee namaha" and ending with "Sarvalingam sthapayati pani mantram pavithram". This is a mantra for linga pratishta. So where is linga worship absent in the Veda?. In innumerable shiva temples in Tamil Nadu (all the ones in the Nava kailasam temple series on the Thamiraparani), the lord is named "Kailasa Nathar". If shiva was Dravidian why is he named after a place, northern most in India? Also the Shiva yogi Thirumoola who composed the great "Thirumandiram" of 3000 verses, says that he was a yogi in the Himalayas and Nandikeshvara's shishya. The Thirumandiram is a canonical Shaivite text in Tamizh. Why would they want to choose a book written by a person from the "Aryan" North?. Also reference to shiva with his consort Ambika occurs in the Yajur veda samhita frequently. Also again in the Yajur Veda there is a reference to shiva wearing a tiger cloth and having pinaka club In hand. Also sometimes Rudra is extolled as Agni and Agni as Rudra in the Yajur veda. Sometimes Indra too danced as Shiva of the puranas. Conclusions All these show that shiva was never a Dravidian god or Vishnu Aryan or vice versa. There is no scriptural (Vedic or Agamic) evidence for this. It was just that the father I mentioned above was quoting blindly, something he read somewhere and did not understand. He just wanted to confuse me. The Aryan/Dravidian theory refuses to die fast and it is been exploited by missionaries to the hilt for conversion by resorting to theories of 19th century "Imperialistic", "Missionary minded" Indologists. __________________ You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him discover it in himself. - Galileo Galilei

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

November 10th, 2012, 12:15 AM	#123
skganji Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Irvine Posts: 633 Likes (Received): 18	Is there an Image of this Palm script ?.

December 12th, 2012, 09:53 PM	#128
Pakdubai BANNED Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Karachi, Dubai, Toronto Posts: 137 Likes (Received): 0	proto indo european originated in central asia, they migrated to present day northern pakistan/kashmir region and this is where bulk of the rig vedas and rig vedic culture were formed ^ this is the view of most of the international historians and is proven by genetic tests, as-well as linguistic tests

December 12th, 2012, 11:26 PM	#130
Pakdubai BANNED Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Karachi, Dubai, Toronto Posts: 137 Likes (Received): 0	^ the rigveda was composed in what is mostly pakistan, but what I am talking about is (aryans). The proto aryans came from central asia, so the aryans were not native to india as most hindus seem to claim.

December 12th, 2012, 11:40 PM	#133
Pakdubai BANNED Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Karachi, Dubai, Toronto Posts: 137 Likes (Received): 0	Desiyogi only punjab was, not areas further north like Peshawar/Swat and the dardic areas, they have nothing to do with indian culture, yet we find that the earliest rig vedic texts come from the that region.

December 13th, 2012, 05:49 PM	#140
Pakdubai BANNED Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Karachi, Dubai, Toronto Posts: 137 Likes (Received): 0	^ non of the historians say it like that, indo aryans came to what is pakistan now and settled there, just like the (mughals) or anybody else that came from central asia, after settling they started to develop the (vedic) culture, again you just have to look at the non hindu nationalist sources and you will find all the answers.