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Old July 5th, 2005, 08:34 PM   #21
Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm
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It'll be really interesting to see how many of these Boeing can sell, because this is a "derivative" aircraft directly competing with an all-new Airbus. We all know how well the original A350 derivative failed...

If they could ink Cathay and British Airways as "launch" customers, that'd go a long way towards boosting confidence in it. But with the lack of A380 sales, it really makes you wonder how big of market there is for these aircraft. It seems like a lot of customers aren't ready to retire their 747-400s yet, perhaps when they start to reach their maximum age orders'll pick up.

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Old July 5th, 2005, 09:17 PM   #22
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one interesting question is also if airlines, that use the a380 would also use the 747avd.
As one article states, luftahnsa is intersted.....
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Old July 5th, 2005, 10:40 PM   #23
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^ Interesting. I don't know if that would be common though, it kills the cost-saving concept of fleet commonality. And the difference in number of seats doesn't seem large enough to warrant its own specific set of routes.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 10:35 AM   #24
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sure, it has good looks though...
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Old July 13th, 2005, 09:39 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Yankee
...The 744ADV has 8 to 10 percent lower costs per seat compared with the A380... and the plane is smaller and that's why it has a greater market!
... Yeah this conversation needed to be in this thread.

I'd argue the 747 Advanced is in the same capacity category as the A380. If you look at airlines like SQ who are ordering A380s with about 500 seats, and the 747 Advanced seating "up to 500" in 3-class arrangement, there's virtually no difference at all.

Cathay Pacific is a possible launch customer for the 747A IF Boeing can promise CX they can fly it from HKG to LAX in the summer nonstop (when the winds are against it more.) Eventually, CX will have a mix of A380s and 747As I think, but being a launch customer... I'm not so sure about.

CX and BA are both very good at fleet selection. Most likely they'll both sit back and watch to see how the market reacts with both the A380 and 747A in play. I'm starting to think it'll be two other airlines that Boeing claims they have agreements from, perhaps JAL?

BTW, when is Boeing going to announce those two airlines?

Last edited by Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm; July 13th, 2005 at 10:45 PM.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 09:46 PM   #26
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I was also thinking... why not make the 747A a twinjet instead of four? Two GE90-115Bs should give it plenty of power, wouldn't that be even more efficient than having four GEnX's on?
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Old July 14th, 2005, 11:28 PM   #27
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maybe, but i think they have much more range with 4 engines instead 2, looks at the a340.
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Old July 14th, 2005, 11:44 PM   #28
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Go
USA!
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Old July 15th, 2005, 12:28 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Yankee
maybe, but i think they have much more range with 4 engines instead 2, looks at the a340.
Nonsense Yankee! Look at the 777-200LR, a twinjet that's now the world's longest range airliner! I think range has more to do with the size and thus, fuel capacity.

And the GE90-115Bs can handle a 747. During testing they strapped one to a 747 and actually were able to fly the whole aircraft on just that single engine. Yeah... I think a twinjet would make a lot of sense!


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Old July 16th, 2005, 09:36 PM   #30
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BUT I THINK IT WILL LOOKS GOOD!
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Old July 17th, 2005, 01:30 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm
Nonsense Yankee! Look at the 777-200LR, a twinjet that's now the world's longest range airliner! I think range has more to do with the size and thus, fuel capacity.

And the GE90-115Bs can handle a 747. During testing they strapped one to a 747 and actually were able to fly the whole aircraft on just that single engine. Yeah... I think a twinjet would make a lot of sense!


The engines, if it was a twin, would have to be quite more powerfull than the 115k lb GE90-115 that powers the 773ER.

The 747A will have 4x65k lb engines = 260k lb.

To be a twin, it would have to have at least 280k lb of power (it would have to be more powerfull than a quad... probably more powerfull than 280k lb because of engine out situations.... when you have a twin and loose an engine, there's a 50% power lost, contrarely to a quad, where you have just a 25% power lost. That's why twins of the same size, have to be more powerfull overall than quads, although they still are less powerfull in case an engine fails).

It would have to have at least 2 140k lb engines.... substantiallymore than the 115k lb GE90-115. You are talking about GE90-115B.... are those more powerfull than the regular GE90-115's? Perhaps with 125k lb? I know emirates wanted a more poerfull version of the engine for their 777-300ER's.... maybe that's what you are refering to.
Anyway, that's still a leap to 140k lb.
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Old July 17th, 2005, 06:42 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nephasto
Anyway, that's still a leap to 140k lb.
True, but GE could pull it off. The 90-115B's are only rated at 115,000 lbs thrust, but have been maxed out at over 127,900 lbs.

The main goal for the 747 Advanced is to make it as feul economical as possible, and if they could pull off using just two engines instead of four, that would go a LONG way to helping that cause.

[That... and I always felt the engines on current 747s looked "puny" attached to the body. Let's put those 11ft. diameter bad boys on there!!!]

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Old July 17th, 2005, 02:15 PM   #33
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I don't think they will sell many. They would better off devoting their resources to a further update of the 737.
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Old July 17th, 2005, 02:47 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
I don't think they will sell many. They would better off devoting their resources to a further update of the 737.
Agreed
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Old July 18th, 2005, 04:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
I don't think they will sell many. They would better off devoting their resources to a further update of the 737.
Yeah that's what's kind of silly about this whole idea. A couple years ago, Boeing was claiming there's barely enough market share for just one superjumbo, and thus conceded to the A380. So now they go saying they're going to build a plane with about the same capacity, range and economics? Sounds to me like Boeing's green with envy they lost the superjumbo market.

Speaking of a 737 update... I thought there was a thread a while back about this, and that it would be given the "797" title. That really does sound like a more worthwhile investment, with an all-new aircraft at that size they could do serious damage to Airbus' A320 family market.

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Old July 18th, 2005, 09:39 PM   #36
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wait for 5 years...
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Old July 18th, 2005, 10:53 PM   #37
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I just really hope they'll go ahead with this 747Adv project(despite the fact that I'm Airbus fan), we don't wanna see 747 vanish from the airports - can't wait to see the jumbo and whale jets side by side in our airports
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Old July 18th, 2005, 11:32 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PornStar
I just really hope they'll go ahead with this 747Adv project(despite the fact that I'm Airbus fan), we don't wanna see 747 vanish from the airports - can't wait to see the jumbo and whale jets side by side in our airports
Even if they canned the 747 it'd still be around for decades as a freighter. (The 747 was originally designed to convert to freighter very easily, as Boeing thought at the time SSTs would render it obselete as a passenger aircraft. So sad they were wrong...)
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Old July 19th, 2005, 01:26 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheese Mmmmmmmmmmmm
Even if they canned the 747 it'd still be around for decades as a freighter.
True(for what? 12-15 yrs? maybe a little longer in certain cases), but that wouldn't be the same as seeing it at a passenger terminal with all the new beauties ŕ la A380...
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Old July 19th, 2005, 04:53 PM   #40
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^ Don't worry, you'll get your wish. Boeing would look really bad slashing the Everett 747 production line (thousands of jobs), and their new CEO is pushing hard for the 40-year-old plane. My feeling though is this'll sell about as well as the 747SP...
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