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Old August 19th, 2013, 10:58 AM   #561
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They already had the MD-12 that could of continued from the MD company they bought out. Boeing could have started a new line of full twin deck aircraft and even if it would of gotten 200 more sales that is still way better than the 40 B747-8is currently ordered. 200 more would be 240 aircraft sales in total if they had the twin deck plane instead of the 747 8i. So according to you its 40 sales or 240. A couple hundred in sales would of been way better.

Boeing said themselves, the way of the future is smaller "hub buster" aircraft. Such as the 787. The cost of development alone for a VLA would be too much for the sake of maybe a few hundred sales. The cost outweighs the benefit. Let's face it, the A380 hasn't exactly been a runaway sales success.
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Old August 19th, 2013, 11:10 AM   #562
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Having flown on an A380, I will say that it is awesome! There are already 106 A-380s in service, last time I checked. 150 to go to break even. Sure the A-380 has had some bumps, but it is truely a 21st century plane.
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Old August 19th, 2013, 11:57 AM   #563
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It maybe a great aircraft, but that doesn't make it a runaway sales success.

Here's a good article about the slowing demand for the A380: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....-01-578735.xml
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Old August 19th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Сталин View Post
They already had the MD-12 that could of continued from the MD company they bought out. Boeing could have started a new line of full twin deck aircraft and even if it would of gotten 200 more sales that is still way better than the 40 B747-8is currently ordered. 200 more would be 240 aircraft sales in total if they had the twin deck plane instead of the 747 8i. So according to you its 40 sales or 240. A couple hundred in sales would of been way better.
Beyond a couple of sketches and a vague study suggesting the need for such an aircraft, there was very little for Boeing to continue with upon merging with McDonnell Douglas. Most of MD's recent expertise came from military contracts; by the mid-90s it had been over 20 years since MD had offered a brand new commercial airframe. Since then they had simply been offering updated or stretched versions of their airliners (the commercial failure of the MD-11 programme meant that if they hadn't merged with Boeing they would certainly have left the widebody airliner market by 2000 as they had no capital to invest in new models). As it happens, by the time they merged Boeing were doing their own studies which indicated the future growth potential was in a hi-tech 767 replacement that could fly very long distances point to point. Meanwhile the 777 variants seemed to be doing well as a 747 replacement, with fewer and fewer domestic US carriers relying on the 747, and even the asian airlines were growing more interested in the economics of twin engined airliners as opposed to very large aircraft.

None of that is to say that the A380 doesn't have its place though, it is a fantastic airliner that owns the niche market for which it has been built. But that market is not big enough to sustain two such competing airliners, so once one manufacturer was committed to creating such a large airliner, there was no commercial sense in competing for such a small slice of the cake, as it were. Airbus have claimed that slice for themselves, but strategically it hasn't been particularly beneficial, as they found out when the airlines demanded they design and build a brand new twin engined long distance airliner in the shape of the A350 to rival the 787/777, which has already got nearly three times as many orders as the A380.
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Old August 19th, 2013, 02:39 PM   #565
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Nevertheless, the freight version of Boeing 747-8 has been a success for the moment
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Old August 19th, 2013, 02:51 PM   #566
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Beyond a couple of sketches and a vague study suggesting the need for such an aircraft, there was very little for Boeing to continue with upon merging with McDonnell Douglas. Most of MD's recent expertise came from military contracts; by the mid-90s it had been over 20 years since MD had offered a brand new commercial airframe. Since then they had simply been offering updated or stretched versions of their airliners (the commercial failure of the MD-11 programme meant that if they hadn't merged with Boeing they would certainly have left the widebody airliner market by 2000 as they had no capital to invest in new models). As it happens, by the time they merged Boeing were doing their own studies which indicated the future growth potential was in a hi-tech 767 replacement that could fly very long distances point to point. Meanwhile the 777 variants seemed to be doing well as a 747 replacement, with fewer and fewer domestic US carriers relying on the 747, and even the asian airlines were growing more interested in the economics of twin engined airliners as opposed to very large aircraft.

None of that is to say that the A380 doesn't have its place though, it is a fantastic airliner that owns the niche market for which it has been built. But that market is not big enough to sustain two such competing airliners, so once one manufacturer was committed to creating such a large airliner, there was no commercial sense in competing for such a small slice of the cake, as it were. Airbus have claimed that slice for themselves, but strategically it hasn't been particularly beneficial, as they found out when the airlines demanded they design and build a brand new twin engined long distance airliner in the shape of the A350 to rival the 787/777, which has already got nearly three times as many orders as the A380.


Very well said.
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Old August 19th, 2013, 05:51 PM   #567
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Quote:
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It maybe a great aircraft, but that doesn't make it a runaway sales success.
The A380 is here at least for the next 30 years. The aircraft market will probably change a lot during that period of time. Sooner or later, large capacity planes will be needed for shorter distances than intercontinental flights only.

I'm really sceptic about the US strategy consisting in flying entire armies of B737s and A320s to make the market as flexible as possible. Not only American airliners don't perform so good, but the price of tickets aren't that cheap either. I simply cannot believe linking NYC to LA wouldn't be more profitable with an A380: granted, that would be less flexible but it would be more comfortable for the passenger and probably more profitable for the company.

The fact it hasn't been dared yet doesn't mean it's necessarily stupid. The problem I believe is just that competition is so tight in the US that no airliner will take the risk to change its strategy any sooner.
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Old August 19th, 2013, 08:41 PM   #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wezza View Post
Boeing said themselves, the way of the future is smaller "hub buster" aircraft. Such as the 787. The cost of development alone for a VLA would be too much for the sake of maybe a few hundred sales. The cost outweighs the benefit. Let's face it, the A380 hasn't exactly been a runaway sales success.
Neither has the Boeing 747-8i with only 40 sales. And even an A380 can be as as efficient as a B787 with future improvements to technology.

Last edited by Сталин; August 19th, 2013 at 08:55 PM.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 12:38 AM   #569
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Neither has the Boeing 747-8i with only 40 sales. And even an A380 can be as as efficient as a B787 with future improvements to technology.
You don't understand what I am saying. The cost of developing the 748 is a fraction of what they would have had to invest to develop a completely new airliner. Besides, Boeing had concentrated all their resources on the 787 during this period. Boeing decided that the development cost vs the demand for another new VLA in the market didn't stack up. The 748 has a saving grace in it's freighter version, which has helped sales.

Also it has nothing to do with how efficient the A380 can be, it is more to do with the capacity. It is just too big for a lot of routes where as the 787/A350 size aircraft can fly a lot of different routes viably.

Last edited by Wezza; August 20th, 2013 at 12:44 AM.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 02:07 AM   #570
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@patel2897 Please resize your picture before posting. It also belongs in the 777 thread.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 03:45 AM   #571
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I THINK THAT BOEING 777X IS BEST AND MANY OF THE WORLD AIRLINE WILL PLACE ORDER FOR IT JUST LIKE B787 THE FASTEST SALEING AIRLINER SAME I THINK THIS WILL HAPPEN TO BOEING 777X PROGRAM FASTEST SALEING
Mind your caps please, and that post is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 06:19 AM   #572
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Definitely too big, and also in the wrong forum. Patel, you must set the size of your photo uploader; usually no bigger than 1000x669.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 06:32 AM   #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wezza View Post
It maybe a great aircraft, but that doesn't make it a runaway sales success.

Here's a good article about the slowing demand for the A380: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....-01-578735.xml
The Airbus A380 is going through much the same growing pains as the Boeing 747 did in its first years. The 747 wasn't an instant success, and it took a while for it to become the sensation it later became. I don't see why the same won't happen with regard to the A380.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 08:34 AM   #574
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It's a completely different age then then the early years of the 747, it's completely incomparable.

You have to compare it with other new airliners from that period and the DC-10 and the L-1011 Tristar and then you see that the sales where actually very comparable. It's not a matter of that it wasn't an instant success. Boeing kept developing the plane over time and kept the 747 alive into the modern age with modern age sales numbers for the 747-400.

Compare the current sales of the 747-8I and the A350 to other new airplanes of this period and then we don't just see weak numbers. We also see that the 787 and the A350 have more then 800 and 600 orders respectively before the 1st delivery. So even if the A380 will get more then 500 orders eventually, the big twins will all have several thousands of orders...

The A380 has it's own little niche, but it will never be a big sales success.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 08:44 AM   #575
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The A380 has it's own little niche, but it will never be a big sales success.
But that niche still has demand, for there is an A380, and so it may be developed in the future.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 10:52 AM   #576
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But that niche still has demand, for there is an A380, and so it may be developed in the future.
For sure. But is there room in the marketplace for another A380 size aircraft? I think not.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 10:56 AM   #577
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The A380 is the most comfortable plane in the market currently.

It's only a niche market plane if you want it to be this way, but I'm very convinced that sooner or later its use will be expanded to shorter routes.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 08:56 PM   #578
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For sure. But is there room in the marketplace for another A380 size aircraft? I think not.
So Airbus pretty much dominated over that niche, and Boeing is just fronting that those types of aircraft are not relevant. If there was no A380, there might of been a full twin deck Boeing plane. Who knows.
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Old August 20th, 2013, 09:11 PM   #579
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A next question: what other airlines do you want to see operate the B747-8 Intercontinental, and on which routes do you want it to operate?
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:31 AM   #580
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So Airbus pretty much dominated over that niche, and Boeing is just fronting that those types of aircraft are not relevant. If there was no A380, there might of been a full twin deck Boeing plane. Who knows.
If there were no A380, there would still be the 747 dominating the VLA segment. But as I said earlier, Boeing decided to go a different direction with their 787 "hub buster" aircraft. Problems aside, you'd have to say it has been an absolute sales success.
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