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Old August 21st, 2013, 01:36 AM   #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wezza View Post
If there were no A380, there would still be the 747 dominating the VLA segment. But as I said earlier, Boeing decided to go a different direction with their 787 "hub buster" aircraft. Problems aside, you'd have to say it has been an absolute sales success.
It has, but so does the A350XWB, so in the end Airbus has kept the A380 and is also sharing the 787 market... it's win-win for Airbus.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 04:20 AM   #582
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It has, but so does the A350XWB, so in the end Airbus has kept the A380 and is also sharing the 787 market... it's win-win for Airbus.
Airbus hasnt even made money off the 380s yet ...... and are 49 planes away from just breaking EVEN.

Boeing / 747-81 is just another variance of the 747. So they didnt break the bank

Plus they get the head start 787 vs A350


Overall: Boeing is winning.

Less risk
spent less money on plane development
make more money
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Old August 21st, 2013, 09:37 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by Buffalomatt1027 View Post
Airbus hasnt even made money off the 380s yet ...... and are 49 planes away from just breaking EVEN.

Boeing / 747-81 is just another variance of the 747. So they didnt break the bank
How many planes does airbus have to sell in order to start making profit off of the A380?
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Old August 21st, 2013, 09:30 PM   #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Сталин View Post
How many planes does airbus have to sell in order to start making profit off of the A380?
Hi guys.
Airbus actually doesn't really communicate about that anymore so i'd be curious to know your source Buffalomatt.
Last time I heard about it, they were talking about years before the program could be considered as a profit maker.
Also, even if the A380 program has been a loss for Airbus so far, it generated a lot of experience, improvement and acknowledge for other programs such as the A350 which should be a success.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 11:01 PM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalomatt1027 View Post
Airbus hasnt even made money off the 380s yet ...... and are 49 planes away from just breaking EVEN.

Boeing / 747-81 is just another variance of the 747. So they didnt break the bank

Plus they get the head start 787 vs A350


Overall: Boeing is winning.

Less risk
spent less money on plane development
make more money
Nobody is "winning". There is nu such thing as "winning" because both Airbus and Boeing have a duopoly in the widebody market and they will keep it that way.

Now about spending money on plane development:

> The A380 was over budget
> The 747-8 was over budget
> The 787 was over budget
> The A350 is over budget
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Old August 21st, 2013, 11:10 PM   #586
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Over budget for only 40 commercial airliners and 50 or so cargo planes. Just sad. It is time to retire the queen of the skies.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 11:17 PM   #587
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There are 2 break even points, that can be a bit confusing.

You have the program break even point. That's when the total income of the sales of a type of plane will be higher then the total costs (development and productions costs). This is actually not that interesting for the manufacturers since they don't do the accounting for all the programs separately. All the costs developing the A380 or the 747-8 have all been accounted for in the years these costs where made.

Secondly you have the production break even point. That's when the costs building an actual airplane becomes lower then the price an airline is paying for the plane. In the case of the A380 that will be in 2015 according to Airbus. With the 747-8 being a new version of an old design that already had a mature production it's not strange that Boeing can keep the production costs low even at a low production rate. It also helps that the 747 production logistics is less complex then the A380.

All in all it's not the lack of orders for the A380 in recent years that has been the main financial problem for Airbus. What's more important is that Airbus had big problems reducing the costs of the producing the A380, delaying the moment reaching this break even point by several years.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 01:29 AM   #588
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Boeing has made a lot of money on the 747 after the break even point, and so will Airbus with the 380 once it reaches that stage.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:41 AM   #589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XWB View Post
Nobody is "winning". There is nu such thing as "winning" because both Airbus and Boeing have a duopoly in the widebody market and they will keep it that way.

Now about spending money on plane development:

> The A380 was over budget
> The 747-8 was over budgets
> The 787 was over budget
> The A350 is over budget
The 747 program has been around for A VERY long time ...... the 747-8i is just another version. So how exactly could they go over budget??? They didnt

and yes the 787 has had its issues / delays.

But overall boeing gambled less and earned more.

Airbus: They gambled there entire company on the 380

350- they are playing catch up to the 787
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 08:44 AM   #590
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Boeing did went over budget for the 747-8 for a couple of billion dollars. Even though it's a new version of an old plane it does costs money to make all the changes, and if you pay more then you has anticipated you simply go over budget.

But right now the main concern for the 747 program is the lack of orders, that will slow down the production. This will have major effect on the profitability of the program. It's not only that Boeing will earn less money because they will simply be delivering less planes. It's also increasing the costs of the production per plane. There will be a point when it's simply not viable anymore to keep the line open. But because of the age of the 747 line it's not likely that will happen. It's sometimes joked that they will keep it open until the presidents orders a new Air Force One.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 12:41 PM   #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalomatt1027 View Post
The 747 program has been around for A VERY long time ...... the 747-8i is just another version. So how exactly could they go over budget??? They didnt
The development of the 747-8 was not free - as Momo1435 explained - there was a budget and they exceeded it.

Quote:
and yes the 787 has had its issues / delays.
The 787 was 300% over budget. Not a small issue.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 04:32 PM   #592
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Quote:
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The development of the 747-8 was not free - as Momo1435 explained - there was a budget and they exceeded it.



The 787 was 300% over budget. Not a small issue.
source???
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:28 PM   #593
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In 2011, total investment on the 787 program was more than $32 billion while the original budget was less than $10 billion.

http://seattletimes.com/html/busines..._boeing25.html

This should however not be a real problem, the 777-200 program was also $14 billion over budget and look at where it stands today.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 02:48 AM   #594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XWB View Post
In 2011, total investment on the 787 program was more than $32 billion while the original budget was less than $10 billion.

http://seattletimes.com/html/busines..._boeing25.html

This should however not be a real problem, the 777-200 program was also $14 billion over budget and look at where it stands today.
The widebody cash cow for Boeing. The 737 is Boeing's narrow body cash cow.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 03:33 AM   #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XWB View Post
In 2011, total investment on the 787 program was more than $32 billion while the original budget was less than $10 billion.

http://seattletimes.com/html/busines..._boeing25.html

This should however not be a real problem, the 777-200 program was also $14 billion over budget and look at where it stands today.
ok what about the 747-8i ......you made that one up!
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 08:35 AM   #596
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http://bit.ly/177GVQi
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 10:43 AM   #597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalomatt1027 View Post
ok what about the 747-8i ......you made that one up!
XWB knows what he is talking about.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 03:40 PM   #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalomatt1027 View Post
ok what about the 747-8i ......you made that one up!
So you assume it costs Boeing nothing to design, develop and certificate a new aircraft type (or update)?
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Old August 25th, 2013, 02:49 AM   #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalomatt1027 View Post
ok what about the 747-8i ......you made that one up!
You should try using google to verify this type of information before you accuse other people who clearly know better of making crap up.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #600
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Birth of a giant - the first Boeing 747 jumbo jet making its public debut in 1969

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