daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Airports and Aviation

Airports and Aviation » Airports | Photos and Videos



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 31st, 2013, 04:36 AM   #741
patel2897
INDIA
 
patel2897's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Kandivali,mumbai/Philadelphia, USA
Posts: 2,804
Likes (Received): 3604

I just want to tell you one thing guys that because of fuel price going sky rocketing the Airlines are force to sell the four engines plane like B747-400 or A340 and also there are not many airline buying the new A380 and B747-8I. All of the worlds airline company are looking for more fuel efficient plane or engines and only demand for more two engines plane from all airline companys so all four engines aircraft are in danger of being extinction in years to come if fuel price will going up like this.
__________________
Peace Begins With Smile - Mother Teresa. He Who Has The Knowledge has the Responsibility To Impart It To The Students.-Rabindranath Tagore. Live As If You Were To Die Tomorrow. Learn As If You Were To Live Forever. - Mahatma Gandhi. My YouTube Channel Subscribe : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHt...sCBbDKXmkN4YFw

Zaz965 liked this post
patel2897 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 31st, 2013, 08:14 AM   #742
Сталин
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,779
Likes (Received): 1116

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalomatt1027 View Post
Passenger planes like the 747-8i and 380 look GOOD on paper and not so good in real life. Selling 450 - 800 seats per flight is unlikely to sell out a majority of the time. I could be wrong .... and i dont have the numbers to prove it. But I think its fair to think that its unreasonable to sell that many seats for 1 plane ride to what ever location you are going to.
I flown on an A380 and it was mostly full.
Сталин no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2013, 04:20 PM   #743
Buffalomatt1027
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,295
Likes (Received): 373

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPA001 View Post
It has turned out that way. But when the B748 was launched Boeing expected the B748i to take 66% to 75% of all orders. But that prediction has not materialised at all.

If the efficiency is good enough, you don't need to fully sell all available tickets on every flight. Especially on the A380 we see most airlines opt for a more luxurious seating configuration. RASM is much more important than CASM, so it seems anyway.

But all A380 operators (maybe except for China Southern Airlines) are reporting very high (much higher then average) load factors on their airplanes. EK mentioned by the CEO Tim Clark that the A380 is cash cow for them and he would have order even more if the Dubai Airport could handle them. But with all these B77W's still arriving, and 75 A350's to come, there is just not enough room left until the new big airport in Dubai gets more terminals and runways operational.
I looked up what RASM and CASM mean. I get what your saying ... they dont need a full plane to make money on any certain flight.

The one issue i had when Googling RASM / CASM for the 380 / 747 is that some of the stats were miss represented by Airbus. The Airbus stats had the wrong capacity numbers for Boeing planes to make Airbus statistically look better.

I did learn that the 747-8i is 16% better on fuel then the A380 and does have better cargo capacity.
Buffalomatt1027 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2013, 06:42 PM   #744
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,235
Likes (Received): 62977

In all fairness, both Airbus and Boeing use the best possible calculations to make their own product look better.

Right now the only company that could give you a fair comparison is Lufthansa since it's the only airline operating both types. And I would expect that in real world numbers they would be very close to each other when it comes to the economics. One of the main difference keeps on being the A380 effect, which keeps attracting passengers to A380 flights. The 747 used to do the same thing, it shows that it's not something that keeps working for the A380 forever.

In the meantime the extremely big numbers of A330, A350, 787 and 777 orders show that the twin engines are now the workhorses in the global long haul market. That's the future and the future is now. The combined A350 and 787 orders this year surpass the total orders for the A380 and the 747-8I, that pretty much tells it all.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2013, 08:26 PM   #745
EPA001
Registered User
 
EPA001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rotterdam metropolitan area
Posts: 28,974
Likes (Received): 5831

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalomatt1027 View Post
The one issue i had when Googling RASM / CASM for the 380 / 747 is that some of the stats were miss represented by Airbus. The Airbus stats had the wrong capacity numbers for Boeing planes to make Airbus statistically look better.
See the reply from Momo1435, though it is more the other way around. But both have smart marketeers working for them to claim the one or the other "the clearly better product" where the market duopoly (almost 50-50 in market share) shows that their products in the real world are performing more or less on comparable levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
In all fairness, both Airbus and Boeing use the best possible calculations to make their own product look better.
But in general Boeing uses a higher density to describe the capacity and qualities of their products compared to Airbus. By Airbus standards the seat count is lower since they give the passengers more space. But all this is on paper.

In the real world the specific airline configurations determine the real capacity and the real numbers on CASM & RASM. For example: the newly introduced B777-9X, which will enter into service in 2020, has by Boeing standards a seat count of 407. The A350-1000, which is of virtually the same size as the current B77W, according to Airbus has 350 seats in a three-class configuration.

But at CX, who have ordered both, with their present interior product the difference in seating is about 14 seats. This has been confirmed by a senior official of CX. But if they introduce a new product before the EIS of both airliners, that difference might change again. And every airline is selecting its own products (types of seats and their configuration) so for every airline these numbers can and will vary as well.

It is therefore not telling much if one focusses on CASM only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalomatt1027 View Post
I did learn that the 747-8i is 16% better on fuel then the A380 and does have better cargo capacity.
16% better on fuel, but the gaps on number of seats or passenger area are way bigger then 16%. Making (on paper) the A380 more efficient. Which she also is as confirmed by LH, although the differences are not very dramatic. The airplanes are quite close to each other on CASM if the seating product is comparable on percentages (Firtst/Business/Economy). But the seating product can still make the one better then the other on RASM. Which is of course a management decision made by the airlines themselves. Keep in mind here that the B748i has the newer types of engines mounted under the wing which is also influencing the numbers, as it should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Right now the only company that could give you a fair comparison is Lufthansa since it's the only airline operating both types. And I would expect that in real world numbers they would be very close to each other when it comes to the economics. One of the main difference keeps on being the A380 effect, which keeps attracting passengers to A380 flights. The 747 used to do the same thing, it shows that it's not something that keeps working for the A380 forever.
The A380 effect will wear off at some point in time, but companies like SQ, QF and EK have stated that is still an extremely strong effect. Stronger then they had when they introduced other new aircraft to the fleet. So far there are very little signs of that effect, but for sure that will wear off at some point in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
In the meantime the extremely big numbers of A330, A350, 787 and 777 orders show that the twin engines are now the workhorses in the global long haul market. That's the future and the future is now. The combined A350 and 787 orders this year surpass the total orders for the A380 and the 747-8I, that pretty much tells it all.
It is telling. The VLA market will remain a relatively small niche of the total market. And where big twins are eating themselves more and more into the territory that was once owned by the B744. But those days are over, and virtually were already over when the A346 and B77W were introduced.
__________________
.
"Atheism is more than just the knowledge that Gods do not exist, and that religion is either a mistake or a fraud. Atheism is an attitude, a frame of mind that looks at the world objectively, fearlessly, always trying to understand all things as a part of nature" - Carl Sagan

Last edited by EPA001; January 2nd, 2014 at 01:28 AM. Reason: typo
EPA001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2013, 09:55 PM   #746
jam5
Registered User
 
jam5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,507
Likes (Received): 535

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalomatt1027 View Post
I looked up what RASM and CASM mean. I get what your saying ... they dont need a full plane to make money on any certain flight.

The one issue i had when Googling RASM / CASM for the 380 / 747 is that some of the stats were miss represented by Airbus. The Airbus stats had the wrong capacity numbers for Boeing planes to make Airbus statistically look better.

I did learn that the 747-8i is 16% better on fuel then the A380 and does have better cargo capacity.
That's a bit of an unfair comparison since an A380 has more passenger-capacity than a 747-8. Apples to oranges.
jam5 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2014, 08:39 AM   #747
EK413
Registered User
 
EK413's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,891
Likes (Received): 1895

Cargolux Boeing 747-8R7F/SCD LX-VCF
Everett - Snohomish County / Paine Field (PAE / KPAE) USA - Washington, August 26, 2012

[IMG]http://i42.************/n30mt5.jpg[/IMG]
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Cargo...581f8387b66288
__________________
EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
EK413 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2014, 10:25 PM   #748
Alex67
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 450
Likes (Received): 258

http://aviationspotters.net/user_pho...Csaba%20Kiraly
Alex67 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2014, 08:40 PM   #749
Alex67
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 450
Likes (Received): 258

Cargolux:
http://aviationspotters.net/user_pho...Csaba%20Kiraly
Alex67 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2014, 08:55 PM   #750
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,235
Likes (Received): 62977

The 1st of the 2 747-8F ordered by GECAS is now in paint in Everett. It's still unknown wo will take this one, although it looks to go to Atlas Air. The paint of the tail and rudder is similar to the earlier Atlas Air 747-8Fs and they did sign a 747-8F wet-lease deal with the Hong Kong based company BST Logistics that will start next month.


image hosted on flickr

Boeing 747-8 heading into the paint shop by moonm, on Flickr
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction

gennadius liked this post
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2014, 09:51 PM   #751
Alex67
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 450
Likes (Received): 258

http://aviationspotters.net/user_pho...r_name=sas1965

http://aviationspotters.net/user_pho...r_name=sas1965
Alex67 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2014, 07:03 PM   #752
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,235
Likes (Received): 62977

Boeing released the final orders for 2013.
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

In the last weeks they booked 3 new orders.

1x 747-8F for Cathay (already known)
4x 747-8I for Transaero (finally)
2x 747-8I for an unidentified customer (who could it be?)


Over the whole year Boeing could book 12 net orders for the 747-8, it's the best year since 2007.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction

gennadius liked this post
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2014, 07:49 PM   #753
GTR66
GTR66
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,274
Likes (Received): 312

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Boeing released the final orders for 2013.
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

In the last weeks they booked 3 new orders.

1x 747-8F for Cathay (already known)
4x 747-8I for Transaero (finally)
2x 747-8I for an unidentified customer (who could it be?)


Over the whole year Boeing could book 12 net orders for the 747-8, it's the best year since 2007.
Where is Transaero's press release? Didn't Boeing say that they booked an order from an airline that has never operated a 747 variant before when this came out?
GTR66 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2014, 08:43 PM   #754
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,235
Likes (Received): 62977

Transaero already had a press release when they announced the MoU back in 2011. Airlines don't usually do another press release when the order is actually firmed up. flydubai for example also did not release another press release for the firming up of the MAX order.

Boeing did indeed say earlier this year that they had an order lined up (not booked) for an airline that had never operated the 747. This order for 2 747-8Is might be that one. On the same day they also booked orders for 737 MAX, 737NGs and 1 777-300ER, all by unidentified customers. So who knows, it might be a crazy order by 1 airline or an collection of orders by several airlines that had to be approved by a national government. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be an order from a Chinese airline, Xiamen for example.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction

gennadius liked this post
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2014, 10:05 PM   #755
gennadius
Per ardua, ad astra
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 143
Likes (Received): 45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Over the whole year Boeing could book 12 net orders for the 747-8, it's the best year since 2007.
17 gross orders, with 11 for the Intercontinental, has to be considered a win in an economy that is still in the process of recovering.

There are 2 orders from CA for the 8I from this past March. I suppose it is possible that the UFO could be those, however that would be odd since those seemed to be directly for that airline.

Perhaps we are seeing something similar to the Silk Way order process with respect to the 4 unknown commitments that were discussed earlier this year. This could be the firming of 2 of them, with the other 2 remaining MoUs to be firmed later.

If it was to be a top up, could it be LH? Since internally, LN 1435 has been listed for LH again, perhaps they are taking her back as well as another one?

With all the other UFOs popping up at the same time though, perhaps your thoughts regarding it being a new Chinese carrier are the most likely.

Whichever way it pans out, a good way to close out 2013 for the 747-8 program.
gennadius no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2014, 11:01 PM   #756
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,235
Likes (Received): 62977

A top up order by Air China is actually a good guess, especially considering the other orders placed on the same day. They had just taken delivery of their 1st 777F a couple of days before this order was placed.

Edit:
never mind, these 2 are certainly for Air China, they did order them earlier this year together with 1 777-300ER and 20 737-800s. Since they are part of a bigger Chinese order they are still listed as unidentified. When they are officially allocated they will be identified by Boeing in the order book.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction

Last edited by Momo1435; January 6th, 2014 at 11:35 PM.
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2014, 06:02 PM   #757
Black Watch
Labore et Scientia
 
Black Watch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Clydebank
Posts: 1,574
Likes (Received): 2107

Lufthansa D-ABYJ at Los Angeles International
29th December 2013
__________________

Equario, Everton44, gennadius, Marco Polo liked this post
Black Watch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2014, 01:43 PM   #758
bagus70
Ես ցանկանում եմ ծծել ձեր
 
bagus70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Surabaya. The City of Hot Headed Heroes.
Posts: 3,903
Likes (Received): 889

What happens to Korean Air's Boeing 747-8i order? It seemed that their aircraft haven't been completed yet.
__________________
Visit Indonesia and enjoy the railway tour, volcanoes tour such as visit to mount Bromo and Ijen. Click: http://www.indonesianrailwaytour.com/
bagus70 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2014, 03:32 PM   #759
GTR66
GTR66
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,274
Likes (Received): 312

Quote:
Originally Posted by bagus70 View Post
What happens to Korean Air's Boeing 747-8i order? It seemed that their aircraft haven't been completed yet.
They aren't taking delivery of the 8i yet. Only the 8Fs are being delivered now.
GTR66 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2014, 04:32 PM   #760
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,235
Likes (Received): 62977

The 1st 747-8I for Korean Air is scheduled to go into final assembly this summer and will be delivered in the 2nd half of this year.

ps.
Air China should take delivery of their 1st 747-8I before Korean Air does.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction

Everton44, gennadius, Qtya liked this post
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium