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Old February 17th, 2011, 07:47 PM   #21
Fabri88
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So, let me know. You are saying that orange light it is a failed experiment isn't it?

I used to fly between London and Milan many times and some of them were at night: despite the low visibility due to the dark sky, you can know if you are flying over France or over Italy simply looking under you: all orange lights -----> France, mix of orange and white lights -----> Italy.

I can experience the difference avery night but as I see I can say that orange brightened roads have more visibility than white light brightened roads.

LEDs, as I can see, solve the problems: they are white but it seems, watching these pictures (especially the one in the Netherlands) that have a better brightness than orange light!
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Old February 17th, 2011, 09:47 PM   #22
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I disagree. It's the other way round. Chris' pic proves that too. Unlit cars, pedestrians/cyclists in dark clothing, are all very hard to see. The darker orange lighting makes the problem worse. White lights, being brighter, make it easier to see said vehicles, pedestrians and cyclists.

The difference in the pic, is the shape of the lens on the light standard. The ones on the left are rounded, giving the illusion that they are brighter than they actually are. The ones on the LEDs are flat, thus giving the illusion that they aren't as bright as they really are.

What matters, is how brighter they are on the pavement. The LEDs in the pic are a lot brighter. So much so, that you can actually see the grass on the other side of the guard rail. The orange ones aren't as bright and it's really hard to tell if there's grass, or just dirt on the other side of the guard rail.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 09:51 PM   #23
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So we could say that French (mostly), Italian and other european urbanists had failed.

Will orange lights substituted with LEDs in the future? I hope so!
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Old February 17th, 2011, 10:04 PM   #24
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LEDs will replace all current lighting in some distant future. There are some issues however:
Chris picture shows decades old sodium light in comparison with ultra modern LED light. Some more fair comparison would be modern high pressure sodium light with zero degree horizon compared to LED light.

Also LED light is much more tiring to the eye because of much more blue light. Red wavelengths from sodium lamps are much more pleasant to the eye.

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Mercury, metal halide and above all first generation of blue-light LED road luminaries are much more pollutant that sodium lamps: Earth atmosphere scatters and transmits blue light better than yellow or red light. It is a common experience observing "glare" and "fog" around and below LED road luminaries as soon as air humidity increases, while orange sodium lamp luminaries are less prone to show this phenomenon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_pollution

LEDs are for now nothing more than just test and try samples. I wouldn't even dare to install such bluish light into my home. Until some reasonable priced warm light LED's don't come into use, I don't see the point of massive changing to LED lamps anytime soon.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 10:07 PM   #25
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Also about visibility sodium vs LED:

from Alessandria, Italy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:11...vs_Mercury.jpg

In my opinion, visibility is much better with sodium here on this picture.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 10:09 PM   #26
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Maybe not reasonably priced quite yet but LED lamps with warm white light is not a news anymore:
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Old February 18th, 2011, 03:59 AM   #27
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I like softer lights better... LED lights are too bright and blinding to the eye at night, when the eyes should adapt to the darkness. That way your eyes don't adapt to the darkness but to the bright LED lights, and everything around them stays completely black.

Last edited by MareCar; February 18th, 2011 at 04:04 AM.
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Old February 18th, 2011, 05:32 AM   #28
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That's easy to fix by using a frosted lens in place of a regular one.
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Old February 18th, 2011, 09:17 AM   #29
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Usually there are no lens on LED street lamps but they should be in my opinion.
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Old February 18th, 2011, 12:02 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MareCar View Post
I like softer lights better... LED lights are too bright and blinding to the eye at night, when the eyes should adapt to the darkness. That way your eyes don't adapt to the darkness but to the bright LED lights, and everything around them stays completely black.
You have to think that if you have a road to illuminate, you should illuminate only the road and not the nearby environment.
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Old February 18th, 2011, 04:58 PM   #31
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That depends from the optics of the lamp, not the lamp type. Optics of the lamp should direct light to the pavement but LEDs usually don't have optics, so they pollute nearby environment. That's why this example from Brazil (previous page) is not good:
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Old February 18th, 2011, 05:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Usually there are no lens on LED street lamps but they should be in my opinion.
There is, otherwise the unit would be exposed to weather and rock throwing kids.
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Old February 18th, 2011, 10:09 PM   #33
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There is difference between protective cover and light directing optics. At normal sodium lights usually there is a parabola from reflective material. All LED lamps that I could see up to now parabolas don't exist. Even protective cover is usually absent, because LEDs themselves are sealed very good and don't need protection from elements. Kids that would hit 10+ m high lamp with rock are also a rarity.
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Old February 18th, 2011, 10:19 PM   #34
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LEDs are used a lot in Sheffield. Not so much in street lights but in the squares and gardens there are a lot of blue floor level lights for decoration! Looks pretty nice!
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Old February 18th, 2011, 11:05 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MareCar View Post
LED lights are too bright and blinding to the eye at night
Well, I drove the Dutch A44 recently and on that motorway white LED has been implemented. It was wonderful light, definitely not too bright or blinding at all. The white color resembled the old mercury gasbulbs from the past.

It was on this road section (both sides are LED by now)

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Old February 20th, 2011, 04:40 PM   #36
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Vlaketunnel in The Netherlands is the first 100% LED tunnel of the world.

More info (in Dutch).



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Old February 20th, 2011, 06:58 PM   #37
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It's not that long (about 350 m I suppose). Imagine having that in 5+ km long double tube tunnels, cost would be enormous.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 08:34 PM   #38
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LED has some very big advanteges when it comes to maintenancecosts.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 09:12 PM   #39
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That's true, but energy cost is not one of them. And 50.000 hour lifetime is still to be proven, especially for high-power LEDs. Do you remember how in early days they advertised DVDs as very reliable with 100 or more years lifetime? Sure ...

I'm not against LEDs, but I don't like current implementation, it is just too costly and has too much drawbacks. LEDs have some potential very serious advantage: scaling the light intensity instantly in connection with traffic counters and proximity sensors. When this becomes implemented and affordable (along with corrected colour) then LEDs will prevail.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 10:26 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScraperDude View Post
Not only is the orange lighting ugly, the light polllution alone is an even better reason for switching to LEDs. I'm not sure how it is in Europe but here in the US you can tell when you are driving in the midwest/west when you are approaching a big city. The sky slowly glows orange for 40 miles or more from the city center and the stars slowly disappear as you grow closer. I'm all for LEDS. The sooner the better for us all.
huh, we have the same situation. but I think orange lights and orange night sky are some 30-40 km from the city no more.
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