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Old April 14th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #201
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Dzisiaj pojde do kosciola z moherkami aby sie pomodlic na dobra pogode dla ciebie w maju no i dla mnie w czerwcu
Nie mam pojecia co to jest - but whatever works! Haha.
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Old April 14th, 2011, 08:52 PM   #202
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moherki are old ladies who hang around churches, when my partner and I were in Wawa last they scared us a bit
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Krakow - Florence of the North

Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old April 14th, 2011, 09:00 PM   #203
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Szpitalna Street

Post war





Today

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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
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Old April 16th, 2011, 10:28 PM   #204
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Streets that no longer exist

Whats there now?
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Old April 16th, 2011, 10:40 PM   #205
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the ruins were cleared and the Palace of Culture was put up. Zlota is cut in two sections with the centre of the Palace causing the division.
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Old April 16th, 2011, 10:49 PM   #206
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Basically this, Stalin's wedding cake to Poland surrounded by desolate windswept parade grounds, although a spatial plan (Official Plan) has been approved for this area after many years of debate and we should see the Museum of Modern Art start construction within the year if all goes well. This is the least appealing part of Warsaw and sadly its a big part of what greets visitors to Warsaw arriving at the Central Train Station and unfortunately it's what shapes opinions of Warsaw very unfairly. Anyway, this will inevitably become Warsaw's Potsdamer Platz.

I'm going to hunt down all the various proposed plans for this area and post them - it would be great to get people's opinions.



So desolate, commies tore down a downtown district that could have been restored because Stalin needed a parade ground to convibce Poles how lucky they were:

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Krakow - Florence of the North

Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old April 17th, 2011, 08:01 AM   #207
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Some Plans for Plac Defilad (Parade Square) that were never realized

Architects in the post war era in many parts of Europe especially in the newly liberated lands of homo sovieticus eschewed the crowded, squalid, decaying and gloomy old historic cities for spacious, sunfilled modern cities where pedestrians frolicked in large parks, lived in white towers of glass and cars sped around on multi-laned highways. Here's what those architects dreamed up for Warsaw. Good thing not much was realized and Jane Jacobs and the new urbanism arrived eventaully.









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Old April 17th, 2011, 04:02 PM   #208
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Let's not give Jane Jacobs, and her book about anecdotes and completely unextrapolatable observations about Greenwich Village, too much credit. I re-read the whole thing from cover to cover on my last vacation and I have to say, she was her generations Richard Florida. No substance.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 04:10 PM   #209
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This thread is excellent!
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Old April 17th, 2011, 05:29 PM   #210
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Good thing not much was realized and Jane Jacobs and the new urbanism arrived eventaully.
Actually there are hardly any "New urbanism" projects in this part of Europe although Jacobs is popular in some circles for reasons I don't really understand.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 05:39 PM   #211
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Let's not give Jane Jacobs, and her book about anecdotes and completely unextrapolatable observations about Greenwich Village, too much credit. I re-read the whole thing from cover to cover on my last vacation and I have to say, she was her generations Richard Florida. No substance.
Oh no you dihant Are you poohpoohing Ms Jacobs, may she rest in peace, who inspired a whole generation of young planners and architects in Toronto and the world, who's empirical studies of the dynamics that gave cities their vitality - density, mixed use, small blocks etc helped us to rediscover the formula that made cities great places to live, without which Richard Florida's Bohemian Index would mean guwno? Anyway, if you want to go there some more, I'll be back after brunch
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Old April 17th, 2011, 05:44 PM   #212
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Actually there are hardly any "New urbanism" projects in this part of Europe although Jacobs is popular in some circles for reasons I don't really understand.
Well, Europeans were already doing things right, but they too fell victim to the errant path of Corbusian placeless urbanism and skyscraper-in-the-park models of development, putting people into subterranean tunnels, sunken plazas that only attract the homeless and garbage. While European cities were still teeming with life in the 30's Americans were busy tearing up streetcar tracks, because Goodyear and GM said so, and building the first expressways to former deserts brought back to life with massive aqueducts and cheap energy. Jane Jacobs prevented the destruction of the Annex in Toronto a beautiful historic neighbourhood near downtown that was to make room for the Spadina Expressway and that would have been the end of West Toronto.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 11:54 PM   #213
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Well, the Annex situation in Toronto is a bit of an over-simplification. Yes, she was able to mobilize the community. But lets not forget that that community was a combination of university professors, old money and middle class professionals.

She did do a lot to get people thinking about sensitive, contextual planning but if you actually read the Death and Life of Great American Cities ... well, 3/4 of the examples she cites are observations she made sans substance and surely without regard for change over time. Her harshest critiques of Philadelphia's planned city centre seem completely off-base since it is now one of the greatest and liveliest parts of that city.

As for the you comments about the American model of development, yes indeed it has proven to be destructive and hard to re-interpret as time changes because it's all single build and there is little room for smaller, iterative changes that European cities have been able to facilitate given that they generally were not built at the same time or through the same development process. You should watch Radiant City by the National Film Board of Canada. And, new urbanism ... well, our examples in the Canada (Markham) and the US have proven that such developments are extremely exclusive and much more expensive than the status quo subdivision tract development. Not exactly sure if it attains what it is supposed to do, which is facilitate integration, walking and placing emphasis on design when it's populated by super-wealthy families who still have to drive everywhere. Pig with lipstick? A little bit!
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Old April 18th, 2011, 12:04 AM   #214
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I read all of JJ's books and generally I looked at the broad concepts and themes rather than anything too specific. Its a viable formula of what makes city's work, parts of it are outdated yes.

new urbanism or sustainable development is a very positive trend. But, the only way you can facilitate walking is by making walking realistic, safe and comfortable, in short walkable communities need a walkable scale and need the densities to make transit viable, at least clusters of density, not all uniform. And the spatial pattern of streets does not lend itself in many cases to modification and its hard to get ratepayers sold on the benefits of fused grids because it could mean more traffic on their streets. Here is where the Jacobs findings about small blocks make sense, it's easier to retrofit built form but not change streets with all their infrastructure. Suburban bungalows on cul-de-sacs cannot be retrofitted easily and reinvented as the city evolves unlike the old industrial areas of New York and Toronto where the live-work loft movement started.

THe attempts at retrofitting suburbia will succeed if we can get parking ratios down while upgrading transit and working with developers to create desirable places. Since Transit City was cancelled in Toronto and we won't see significant transit development until 2020 or after, we will see the old city of Toronto proper densify and become more vital. More and more people I know are fleeing downtown from the burbs, which could become future slums.

Warsaw will have some challenges in retrofitting parts of Wola and recreating traditional street faces.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old April 18th, 2011, 12:05 AM   #215
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Well, Europeans were already doing things right, but they too fell victim to the errant path of Corbusian placeless urbanism and skyscraper-in-the-park models of development, putting people into subterranean tunnels, sunken plazas that only attract the homeless and garbage. While European cities were still teeming with life in the 30's Americans were busy tearing up streetcar tracks, because Goodyear and GM said so, and building the first expressways to former deserts brought back to life with massive aqueducts and cheap energy. Jane Jacobs prevented the destruction of the Annex in Toronto a beautiful historic neighbourhood near downtown that was to make room for the Spadina Expressway and that would have been the end of West Toronto.
Didn't she also put the breaks on the Spidina Expressway?
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Old April 18th, 2011, 12:10 AM   #216
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Didn't she also put the breaks on the Spidina Expressway?
Yes, it was her and I believe a group called the friends of the Annex or something. But they were on the leading edge of urban activists aimed at preserving what was worth preserving versus short-sighted short-term profit. A big part of Cabbagetown in Toronto was demolished was demolished to create St, jamestown, an area that still suffers from crime and urban blight. Not that density is bad, of course.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 12:19 AM   #217
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Yes, it was her and I believe a group called the friends of the Annex or something. But they were on the leading edge of urban activists aimed at preserving what was worth preserving versus short-sighted short-term profit. A big part of Cabbagetown in Toronto was demolished was demolished to create St, jamestown, an area that still suffers from crime and urban blight. Not that density is bad, of course.
God I wish we had her in Columbus. The northern end of German Village and southern part of Downtown was leveled in the late 50s early 60s for the abomination better known as the the I-70/I-71 splits and a failed urban renewal project called the Mohawk-Market. It was a distaster! We got lots of low density, suburban crap! Also I-670 did alot of damage in the Victorian and Italian village area. So sad.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 12:21 AM   #218
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I read all of JJ's books and generally I looked at the broad concepts and themes rather than anything too specific. Its a viable formula of what makes city's work, parts of it are outdated yes.

new urbanism or sustainable development is a very positive trend. But, the only way you can facilitate walking is by making walking realistic, safe and comfortable, in short walkable communities need a walkable scale and need the densities to make transit viable, at least clusters of density, not all uniform. And the spatial pattern of streets does not lend itself in many cases to modification and its hard to get ratepayers sold on the benefits of fused grids because it could mean more traffic on their streets. Here is where the Jacobs findings about small blocks make sense, it's easier to retrofit built form but not change streets with all their infrastructure. Suburban bungalows on cul-de-sacs cannot be retrofitted easily and reinvented as the city evolves unlike the old industrial areas of New York and Toronto where the live-work loft movement started.

THe attempts at retrofitting suburbia will succeed if we can get parking ratios down while upgrading transit and working with developers to create desirable places. Since Transit City was cancelled in Toronto and we won't see significant transit development until 2020 or after, we will see the old city of Toronto proper densify and become more vital. More and more people I know are fleeing downtown from the burbs, which could become future slums.

Warsaw will have some challenges in retrofitting parts of Wola and recreating traditional street faces.
I'm not disagreeing with you about Jane Jacob's contribution to planning nor about new urbanism not being, at the very least, an interesting alternative to status quo development. I actually think that status quo development, i.e. strip / tract subdivision development that is done in blocks, sub-blocks or at the behest of one firm through the development process is dangerous and only time will tell if those developments are "retrofitable." Case and point - Vaughan. The degree of semi- and townhouse forms there is huge; but materials and manner of design were poor and honestly I don't know if any of those buildings could be retrofitted in the same way that, say, a 1950's bungalow could be. Bungalows are not the problem - but you correctly identified the biggest issue, and that is street network. The problem is, though, as Jane identified in her book ... she wrote it for the 'great' cities, the large cities and not for suburbs or exburbs. So trying to recreate new networks of streets, the proper densities and facilitating transit out in the suburbs for example, may not be possible. Which is why I mentioned Cornell as failed new urbanism. Yes, the houses are pretty. Laneways are provided and there are collectors with townhouses and stores near the park. But ... it's still a subdivision development in the north of Markham and without proper transit, 10 or 12 years after it was built. New urbanism is just a pig with lipstick - it doesn't solve the problems it purports to because even if you can walk somewhere, there isn't that "somewhere" to walk to and you end up taking your car anyway because across the arterial road, you have a giant Walmart and regular tract development.

Anyways, enough

(Side note: I'm also a planner so I'm vastly familiar with the development process and policy development).
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Old April 18th, 2011, 12:21 AM   #219
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What did German village and these areas look like, although a bit of a detour here, wouldn't mind seeing it. We were lucky in Toronto on that score, although are new right wing mayor wants to bring back the idea of a Spadina expressway although buried underground, god what a dumb red neck!! It would cost more money than a subway, carry more people and create more pollution, sounds perfect since it will keep Alberta's tar sands booming
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Old April 18th, 2011, 12:28 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by intervention View Post
I'm not disagreeing with you about Jane Jacob's contribution to planning nor about new urbanism not being, at the very least, an interesting alternative to status quo development. I actually think that status quo development, i.e. strip / tract subdivision development that is done in blocks, sub-blocks or at the behest of one firm through the development process is dangerous and only time will tell if those developments are "retrofitable." Case and point - Vaughan. The degree of semi- and townhouse forms there is huge; but materials and manner of design were poor and honestly I don't know if any of those buildings could be retrofitted in the same way that, say, a 1950's bungalow could be. Bungalows are not the problem - but you correctly identified the biggest issue, and that is street network. The problem is, though, as Jane identified in her book ... she wrote it for the 'great' cities, the large cities and not for suburbs or exburbs. So trying to recreate new networks of streets, the proper densities and facilitating transit out in the suburbs for example, may not be possible. Which is why I mentioned Cornell as failed new urbanism. Yes, the houses are pretty. Laneways are provided and there are collectors with townhouses and stores near the park. But ... it's still a subdivision development in the north of Markham and without proper transit, 10 or 12 years after it was built. New urbanism is just a pig with lipstick - it doesn't solve the problems it purports to because even if you can walk somewhere, there isn't that "somewhere" to walk to and you end up taking your car anyway because across the arterial road, you have a giant Walmart and regular tract development.

Anyways, enough

(Side note: I'm also a planner so I'm vastly familiar with the development process and policy development).
I had a feeling you were a planner, I am too. The big problem with retrofitting are the edges with backlotting, that will need wholesale redevelopment. Vaughan's OP isn't even going to touch these "mature neighbourhoods" and instead will allow for clusters of high density where coordinated with transit, whenever that happens...kind of like Toronto which isn't touching old neighbourhoods but allowing infill and laneway development etc. Cornell is not a success story. Once again, you've hit the nail on the head., there is no there there....to go to, why invest in retrofitting. Maybe when the east donlands and portlands are packed with people and mixed use, development will shift north and it will be worthwhile to buy up these future slums and start from scratch. Frankly, I'd rather see most of Vaughan north of Major Mac go back to farmland
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