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Old January 17th, 2016, 06:14 PM   #2401
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Warsaw is the messiest European capital. Some find it charming, but I don't. As a perfectionist (with OCD, probably ), I can't stand a commieblock next to a historicist building stripped of its details next to a 90s fugly architecture. It's just too disturbing for me. Warsaw (and the rest of Central Europe, in fact) needs a "reurbanization plan" which would, in long term, finally make Warsaw a well-planned, organised city. There have to be rules saying what can be built and where it can be built, the construction methods and materials should be coordinated with those in Western Europe, where architecture is of a much better quality. God knows how many post-communist montrosities our countries have seen specifically because of the ignorance of our architects failing to adapt from cheap communist architecture to enjoyable architecture of the 21st century, only in the last few years we've seen some progress regarding that problem. Warsaw is known for its incoherence, wildness and spontaneity, but I think it's time for the city to evolve into something better and bigger, which would be more suitable and enjoyable to its citizens and their visitors.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 06:55 PM   #2402
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Warsaw is the messiest European capital. Some find it charming, but I don't. As a perfectionist (with OCD, probably ), I can't stand a commieblock next to a historicist building stripped of its details next to a 90s fugly architecture. It's just too disturbing for me. Warsaw (and the rest of Central Europe, in fact) needs a "reurbanization plan" which would, in long term, finally make Warsaw a well-planned, organised city. There have to be rules saying what can be built and where it can be built, the construction methods and materials should be coordinated with those in Western Europe, where architecture is of a much better quality. God knows how many post-communist montrosities our countries have seen specifically because of the ignorance of our architects failing to adapt from cheap communist architecture to enjoyable architecture of the 21st century, only in the last few years we've seen some progress regarding that problem. Warsaw is known for its incoherence, wildness and spontaneity, but I think it's time for the city to evolve into something better and bigger, which would be more suitable and enjoyable to its citizens and their visitors.
Finally, someone who I can agree with. But I don't share your optimism regarding Warsaw's future look. I watched "Kick" cause I wanted to see how Warsaw came out - "not so good" it turned. There was moment when I laughed - when they showed "historic" part improved by computer graphics, ie it was needed. Btw, I don't recommend the film.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 02:25 AM   #2403
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a few years ago I would have agreed with you, but this summer having spent an entire week traversing the city on foot in every direction, I must confirm that Warsaw does indeed have a coherence of its own, a syntax of forms (historic, historic stripped, prewwII modernist and commie block) that keep repeating. along with its grand parks and boulevards it has an expansive grandeur that sadly is indeed interrupted by gaping holes in the urban fabric that still have not been filled. but now that so much infill has happened and so many corners rebuilt with nice landmark structures and on top of all that the streetscapes have been largely restored to order and for pedestrian comfort with new light standards and nice even paving throughout, it's a city I would definitely recommend as very exciting. the most glaring examples of that desolate and chaotic emptiness that warsaw was long known for sadly only exists at the east end of the palace of culture or parade square along with smaller pockets here and there especially in Wola, site of the Wola Massacre and more planned Nazi destruction. parks and squares are being cleaned up and revitalized but yes theatre square is still a parking lot, but so many other parks like krasinski are stunning now and even Uprising Square(plac Napoleona) has been cleaned up

generally the centre of the city s the worst because that was the site of the Nazis planned destruction. but you should check out the districts of Mokotow and Ochota which have some beautiful neighbourhoods. and there are so many streets that radiate off Constitution Square that are filled with mostly magnificent pre-war townhouses, but yes, more than half need some maintenance.

I truly don't understand the problem some people have with the old town. I understand if it's Polish people, they are very negative by nature, but the old town is very beautiful an very well maintained, that is, now it is. if either of you visit in the near future be sure to check out the Museum of Warsaw History housed in old townhouses, all original, will open by end of year.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 03:47 AM   #2404
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Everything depends on expectations.
Yes, there are nice parts and coherent areas but they are like islands (some tiny, some a bit larger) in the sea instead of a continent.
Well, this is maybe a topic for a separate thread: why some can't love Warsaw.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 06:08 AM   #2405
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When it comes to people from other Polish cities they are often jealous or have some sort of inferiority complex.

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Warsaw is the messiest European capital.
I highly doubt that, even when you narrow it down to the EU leaving Moscow, Kiev, Minsk, Belgrade, Chisinau or Tirana out of the discussion we still have Bucharest, Sofia and Athens. Anyway it's all very subjective.

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Some find it charming, but I don't. As a perfectionist (with OCD, probably ), I can't stand a commieblock next to a historicist building stripped of its details next to a 90s fugly architecture. It's just too disturbing for me.
Well the city for the most part is composed of commieblocks mixed with some more modern buildings, and at least the modernist commieblock part is always planned with infrastructure like schools, kindergardens etc. and a proper sunlight exposure so you can argue that most of the city was indeed planned, although perhaps not in a way that would suit your prefferences


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There have to be rules saying what can be built and where it can be built, the construction methods and materials should be coordinated with those in Western Europe, where architecture is of a much better quality.
Something like that already exist, although Warsaw have been pretty slow in approving the plans and I'm sure we use pretty much the same construction methods and materials like they do on the other side of the border. I think generally speaking our architecture is also on similar level since about 15 years and it's not like only Polish architects work in Warsaw. In fact some of the worst projects for this city were made by Turks.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 01:12 PM   #2406
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When it comes to people from other Polish cities they are often jealous or have some sort of inferiority complex.
Don't know, maybe. I don't. One thing I am jealous of it is money Warsaw gets being a capital.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 03:28 PM   #2407
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Don't know, maybe. I don't. One thing I am jealous of it is money Warsaw gets being a capital.
As it should, being the capital city.
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Old January 19th, 2016, 02:49 AM   #2408
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Don't know, maybe. I don't. One thing I am jealous of it is money Warsaw gets being a capital.
you mean investment, Warsaw does not get any special EU or Polish capital city fund, but indeed the capital has the responsibility of building many institutions like museums and archives. in the future, there will probably be some decentralization of bureaucratic uses.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 01:24 AM   #2409
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del
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Old January 20th, 2016, 07:25 AM   #2410
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Quote:
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Warsaw is the messiest European capital.
Wow - very impressive travelling - you have been to every capital city in Europe to qualify this statement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan Man View Post
Warsaw (and the rest of Central Europe, in fact) needs a "reurbanization plan" which would, in long term, finally make Warsaw a well-planned, organised city.
Warsaw does have an reurbanization plan and it is only just now starting to be rebuilt after 40 years of commi prison. A wise man does not go to a building site and give his final opinion

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Warsaw is known for its incoherence, wildness and spontaneity, but I think it's time for the city to evolve into something better and bigger.
You prefer - predictable - monotonous and boring?

Warsaw IS evolving into something bigger and better.

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Everything depends on expectations.
I think most people know the history of Warsaw - that 95% of the city was flattened during WWII and partially rebuilt by communists. So what else do you expect? Rome? The situation in Warsaw goes without saying. You don't need to come onto this forum and tell us the obvious.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 03:46 PM   #2411
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Wow - very impressive travelling - you have been to every capital city in Europe to qualify this statement?
Maybe I've been, but I fail to see how that's your business.

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Warsaw does have an reurbanization plan and it is only just now starting to be rebuilt after 40 years of commi prison. A wise man does not go to a building site and give his final opinion
Who said it was my final opinion!? As I said, Warsaw is finally starting to grow, construction sites are everywhere in the city, of course the city is becoming more beautiful as we speak. I'll give my final opinion on my death bed, but I don't care if you'll know it.

Quote:
You prefer - predictable - monotonous and boring?

Warsaw IS evolving into something bigger and better.
I see you tend to knowingly misinterpret someone's opinion, like a real troll. If my opinion of Warsaw is that it's "incoherent, wild and spontaneous", does that automatically mean I love boring and dull cities!? If that's true, Krakow, Prague, Paris and Venice are sooooo boring and dull. Also, have I said that I condemn Warsaw's characteristics!? I just said that's really not my thing, but I do understand that's what people like about that city and it gives it some sort of uniqueness.


Quote:
I think most people know the history of Warsaw - that 95% of the city was flattened during WWII and partially rebuilt by communists. So what else do you expect? Rome? The situation in Warsaw goes without saying. You don't need to come onto this forum and tell us the obvious.
Have I mentioned Rome in my post!? I don't think Warsaw is comparable to Rome, as a matter of fact, Warsaw was never comparable to Rome, IMO. Same goes for Rome, it was never like Warsaw and it will never BE like Warsaw. Those were and still are very unique cities and I don't know why you involved Rome in this story when I was obviously speaking ONLY about Warsaw. Also I have every right to write whatever I want here unless I break the rules set by moderators. Since I believe I didn't do that in my post, you don't have any right to tell my what I need to write and what I don't need to write. This is a free forum where we all come to express our opinions and whether you like it or not, that's something I don't care. Instead of commencing a stupid fight because you don't agree with me, you could've written a normal post with legitimate arguments, just like Urbanista1 did, whose opinion I appreciate very much. I hope your trolling is done now.

Quote:
Everything depends on expectations.
P.S. I didn't write this, it was some other forumer, but I don't think you care much about that, do you?
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 06:45 PM   #2412
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Warsaw beautiful mishmash by night - mostly post war, Lev Rudnev's socreal masterpiece and very recent skyscraper phenomenon (and the latest icon - the winter sun on Q22 spire), but if you look closely you will find a church from the 1870's:



thanks morris71
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Old January 25th, 2016, 08:26 PM   #2413
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Warsaw does have an reurbanization plan and it is only just now starting to be rebuilt after 40 years of commi prison. A wise man does not go to a building site and give his final opinion
Does it? I've never heard of it

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(...) and it is only just now starting to be rebuilt after 40 years of commi prison.
There's plenty of construction in Warsaw, also beautification of old buildings, but the last large-scale let's-call-it-reconstruction, Pałac Jabłonowskich and surroundings was finished in 2002.

The last large-scale real reconstruction, Zamek Królewski, was finished in 1988.
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Old January 26th, 2016, 07:16 AM   #2414
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The largest restoration of historic buildings in Warsaw in years is complete (as to the exteriors) on the Dekert side of the old market. This is the largest grouping of largely authentic kamienice in the old town, two have almost complete interiors:

http://warszawa.wyborcza.pl/warszawa...#BoxLokWawLink

before



now - picture does not do it justice





as you can see they used traditional stucco methods where the pigment is impregnated into the stucco:









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Old January 27th, 2016, 03:40 PM   #2415
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I like some of the new colour choices - I always found that teal colour to look rather strange on the Kamienica pod Murzynem.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 08:05 PM   #2416
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Resurrecting History: Warsaw
Dan Cruickshank



Warsaw is a city of great beauty and charm. But it is a city that has come back from the grave. Warsaw’s resurrection is a story of great heroism and extraordinary willpower. It is a story that means a lot to me because, as a child, I lived in the city with my family in the 1950s. What I saw then, and what I felt, has lived with me. In many ways, it has defined my life.

During the Second World War, Warsaw was virtually wiped off the map. It was damaged during the Nazi invasion of 1939, but far worse was to come five years later when nearly 90 per cent of the city was razed to the ground following the courageous yet ill-starred Uprising. Chillingly, the Nazis had planned, even before the war, to destroy Warsaw as the symbol of Polish pride and identity. The destruction was a cultural and human crime. No fewer than 200,000 Poles died in the August 1944 uprising. Many more had been murdered by the Nazis during the uprising in the Jewish Ghetto the year before.

The question facing Poles in early 1945, as they came under the political control of the Soviet Union, was whether to rebuild their lost capital and, if so, how. The Polish people decided that the loss of their great city was intolerable. A great and palpable wrong had to be put right.

At a grass-roots level, soon after the end of the war, the rebuilding started. The great cultural jewels of Warsaw – notably the Market Square, the Barbican, churches, and the grand houses along Nowy Swiat - were rebuilt in a remarkably accurate, authentic but also creative manner.

I arrived in Warsaw just as this first major phase of construction was complete and people were moving into the re-born Old City. It became my home for several years and, although young, I remember being impressed and delighted. I observed the architecture and drew it. I have my drawings still.

Because the rebuilding was undertaken with belief, love and commitment, the reconstructed buildings have great power and presence. They are not mere pastiches, fake parodies of a past world. They possess their own identities and authentic spirit. The Poles’ refusal to accept the fate the Nazis attempted to impose upon them offers a most inspiring example. The dead can come back from the grave, great wrongs can be put right, lost buildings can be convincingly recreated – if the motivation is pure, if it possesses a moral purpose.

What I found on my return after 57 years delighted me. The Old Town, almost new when I first experienced it has weathered well and now, with its patinated colour-wash and mellow details, feels extraordinarily authentic.
And the life of the city is beguiling. It is vibrant, rich and cultured. Despite the horror of the Second World War, Warsaw feels, and looks, once again what it was for so long – a great and mesmerising capital city.

Dan Cruickshank


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06r12fd


Here is the program on Dailymotion. A must watch if you are interested in this city.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3gto06
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Old January 28th, 2016, 08:26 PM   #2417
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lost buildings can be convincingly recreated – if the motivation is pure, if it possesses a moral purpose.
THIS!!
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Old January 28th, 2016, 08:40 PM   #2418
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Oh god, that picture is so painful. Mixing historical architecture and modern skyscrapers is anything but pleasant. At least not when they're so close in distance.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 09:14 PM   #2419
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Warsaw looks beautiful.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 10:38 PM   #2420
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Oh god, that picture is so painful. Mixing historical architecture and modern skyscrapers is anything but pleasant. At least not when they're so close in distance.
it's a different kind of urban experience that's for sure, it's not the orderly version of European city that people expect, but cities can't help but express the forces that shape them, not just market forces, but wars, cultural and moral forces as well. It's a city you fall in love with over time, but when you do, if you allow yourself to, it is very deep and sincere.
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