daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture > European Classic Architecture and Landscapes

European Classic Architecture and Landscapes All related to historical buildings and landscapes of the old world.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 28th, 2016, 10:48 PM   #2421
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,426
Likes (Received): 5284

Konopacki Palace under restoration in Praga district:



thanks sarajlin
__________________
ten rząd wstrząsa podstawami naszej państwowości i funkcjonowania społeczeństwa. Natomiast większość społeczeństwa śpi, nie zwraca uwagi, co się dzieje i trzeba je z tego snu obudzić - Piotr S


Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 28th, 2016, 11:19 PM   #2422
Alatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 182
Likes (Received): 379

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
it's a different kind of urban experience that's for sure, it's not the orderly version of European city that people expect, but cities can't help but express the forces that shape them, not just market forces, but wars, cultural and moral forces as well. It's a city you fall in love with over time, but when you do, if you allow yourself to, it is very deep and sincere.
= Warsaw express destruction, rebuilding (in small part reconstruction) with prevalence of esthetic chaos.
Monuments do it also. There are monuments of John Paul II and there are sculptures of kings.
100 lat planowania is also an expression of something.

Wonder how long you should spend time in a place to start to love it (it become yours, you have your live, memories, people connected with it).

People say Warsaw is beutifull and has charm. What would they say about Prague, Wien and Budapest then? Is there any gradation: pretty - beautiful - ... ?
Alatar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 01:21 AM   #2423
rychlik
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,809
Likes (Received): 6603

Urbanista, watch that video.
Go to minute 11:45



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3gto06

Dan Cruickshank Resurrecting History: Warsaw
__________________

Atrium liked this post
rychlik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 06:40 AM   #2424
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,426
Likes (Received): 5284



yes, I did watch and noticed it. This guy really did his homework and had access to some truly rare and precious documents, imagine the actual signed pre-war plans to destroy an huge ancient city. I like his tour of the castle, didn't know that conservators during the war spirited out so many valuable artifacts as rubble to aid in the rebuilding. Amazing determination.

Kind of explains why Poles don't like to follow rules, because the rules were always against us.

Anyway, this film was excellent.
__________________
ten rząd wstrząsa podstawami naszej państwowości i funkcjonowania społeczeństwa. Natomiast większość społeczeństwa śpi, nie zwraca uwagi, co się dzieje i trzeba je z tego snu obudzić - Piotr S


Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

rychlik liked this post
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 06:47 AM   #2425
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,426
Likes (Received): 5284

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post
= Warsaw express destruction, rebuilding (in small part reconstruction) with prevalence of esthetic chaos.
Monuments do it also. There are monuments of John Paul II and there are sculptures of kings.
100 lat planowania is also an expression of something.

Wonder how long you should spend time in a place to start to love it (it become yours, you have your live, memories, people connected with it).

People say Warsaw is beutifull and has charm. What would they say about Prague, Wien and Budapest then? Is there any gradation: pretty - beautiful - ... ?
I have never lived in Warsaw, but I have spent much time there. Every time I go there it becomes more legible and coherent. This is a kind of order, a pattern that repeats, but the chaos I feel is mostly created by a number of factors: excess signage (which is getting much better); dilapidated streetscapes, also becoming more ordered and much more elegant and walkable; finally gaps in construction. But yes, there is a aesthetic chaos, but not everywhere, mainly Wola district which was the most destroyed. Poor repair of some buildings is a fact of life, Herculanean efforts were needed just to get Warsaw to this point. The old town and areas like Mokotow and Ochota and Srodmiescie Poludniowe and even most of the Riverside or Powisle district have a nice order. I would not want Warsaw to be like Berlin or Vienna, it wouldn't be an honest reflection of its history. Besides about half of Berlin looks a lot like Warsaw. It certainly isn't like Prague overall, but many parts are. As for the suburbs, they are just as horrible in Prague or Budapest or even Paris, where they also had commie blocks.
__________________
ten rząd wstrząsa podstawami naszej państwowości i funkcjonowania społeczeństwa. Natomiast większość społeczeństwa śpi, nie zwraca uwagi, co się dzieje i trzeba je z tego snu obudzić - Piotr S


Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

rychlik liked this post
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 07:32 AM   #2426
Iluminat
Redsigert User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 11,460
Likes (Received): 4543

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post
People say Warsaw is beutifull and has charm. What would they say about Prague, Wien and Budapest then? Is there any gradation: pretty - beautiful - ... ?
I would say Warsaw is a modern city and shouldn't be really compared to those three.
Iluminat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 07:34 PM   #2427
Ring
Before you die, you see..
 
Ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 5,907
Likes (Received): 13147

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post
People say Warsaw is beutifull and has charm. What would they say about Prague, Wien and Budapest then? Is there any gradation: pretty - beautiful - ... ?
Warsaw has many beautiful places, that's a fact. But it's definitely not beautiful as a whole.

But then again, how many cities are?
__________________
flickr

[Warszawa] Miasto Feniksa

rychlik liked this post
Ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 09:08 PM   #2428
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,426
Likes (Received): 5284

very well said Ring, that is so true about almost every city, except those smaller ones that were or are very wealthy, homogeneous and have been lucky enough to escape devastation.
__________________
ten rząd wstrząsa podstawami naszej państwowości i funkcjonowania społeczeństwa. Natomiast większość społeczeństwa śpi, nie zwraca uwagi, co się dzieje i trzeba je z tego snu obudzić - Piotr S


Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

rychlik liked this post
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 09:18 PM   #2429
rychlik
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,809
Likes (Received): 6603

Exactly. Cities like Prague, Krakow, Vienna, Rome, Paris are just some of the cities that come to mind that escaped apocalyptic destruction.
rychlik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 09:24 PM   #2430
rychlik
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,809
Likes (Received): 6603

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ring View Post
Warsaw has many beautiful places, that's a fact. But it's definitely not beautiful as a whole.

But then again, how many cities are?

Christ, this has come up many times before.

To all the travelers out there - if the the look of Warsaw doesn't fancy you, don't go there. If you like what you see, then travel there. You will like it, I am sure.
rychlik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 09:38 PM   #2431
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,426
Likes (Received): 5284

Right, I think tourism except very superficial types of it, are about learning about a place and seeing something new, expanding our knowledge. Warsaw is fascinating, never boring, jarring yes. You won't get lost in Warsaw either, there are very few streets that look the same. Every time I visit Paris or Amsterdam, even though these are extremely beautiful cities, I got lost very quickly. I may be different, but I find the sameness of those classic cities very boring.
__________________
ten rząd wstrząsa podstawami naszej państwowości i funkcjonowania społeczeństwa. Natomiast większość społeczeństwa śpi, nie zwraca uwagi, co się dzieje i trzeba je z tego snu obudzić - Piotr S


Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 11:08 PM   #2432
Alatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 182
Likes (Received): 379

Well, depends what you are looking for. But does it mean Warsaw is beautiful? Beautiful places are usually popular, well known, visited, photographed, there is talk about them, they appear in tv, books and so on.
So maybe there are more adequate adjectives?
Alatar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2016, 11:17 PM   #2433
chauffeur
That's A Lotta Damage!
 
chauffeur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: U stóp Kawich "Gór"
Posts: 1,674
Likes (Received): 10074

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post
Well, depends what you are looking for. But does it mean Warsaw is beautiful? Beautiful places are usually popular, well known, visited, photographed, there is talk about them, they appear in tv, books and so on.
So maybe there are more adequate adjectives?
Who said that Warsaw is "beautiful"? It's not beautiful, not like Prague or Vienna. Nevertheless, it's still a very interesting city.
We already have some beautiful cities, like Kraków, Wrocław, Zamość, Sandomierz, Toruń, etc.
__________________
To czasy zbrodniarzy, głupców i handlarzy, coraz więcej pustych twarzy, coraz ciaśniej jest na plaży
chauffeur no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2016, 12:23 AM   #2434
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,426
Likes (Received): 5284

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post
Well, depends what you are looking for. But does it mean Warsaw is beautiful? Beautiful places are usually popular, well known, visited, photographed, there is talk about them, they appear in tv, books and so on.
So maybe there are more adequate adjectives?
do you mean beautiful in the philosophical sense, if so, you could argue it as there are many forms of beauty or aesthetics as they may apply to people and cities, but there are people we may find sexy or attractive but that generally one would not consider beautiful. in that sense, warsaw is sexy and beguiling and intriguing, but not beautiful in every way. warsaw is like a beautiful human being with some missing appendages and scars, but with a still beautiful face. warsaw's face being the old town and area around Krakowskie Przedmiescie. what about classically beautifully cities that were created by evil such as Speer's Berlin, can you be beautiful on the outside and ugly inside. what about cities created by huge colonies of toiling slaves such as Savannah and to some extent London, is it still beautiful. What I'm saying is that to love Warsaw you have to understand it's soul or history.
__________________
ten rząd wstrząsa podstawami naszej państwowości i funkcjonowania społeczeństwa. Natomiast większość społeczeństwa śpi, nie zwraca uwagi, co się dzieje i trzeba je z tego snu obudzić - Piotr S


Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2016, 12:37 AM   #2435
FelixMadero
armatissimi & liberissimi
 
FelixMadero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 19,081
Likes (Received): 6381

Please, Warsaw its not beautiful, its GORGEOUS!
__________________

rychlik, Urbanista1 liked this post
FelixMadero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2016, 03:11 AM   #2436
Alatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 182
Likes (Received): 379

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
do you mean beautiful in the philosophical sense, if so, you could argue it as there are many forms of beauty or aesthetics as they may apply to people and cities, but there are people we may find sexy or attractive but that generally one would not consider beautiful. in that sense, warsaw is sexy and beguiling and intriguing, but not beautiful in every way. warsaw is like a beautiful human being with some missing appendages and scars, but with a still beautiful face. warsaw's face being the old town and area around Krakowskie Przedmiescie. what about classically beautifully cities that were created by evil such as Speer's Berlin, can you be beautiful on the outside and ugly inside. what about cities created by huge colonies of toiling slaves such as Savannah and to some extent London, is it still beautiful. What I'm saying is that to love Warsaw you have to understand it's soul or history.
First of all - a fact that You was forced to use this kind of philosophical argumentation means something. Cities commonly regarded as beautiful don't need it.
Second of all - I was waiting for Warsaw's history argument. For me it the same as "miał pod górkę do szkoły" or "miała ciężkie zabawki" - it doesn't change a thing.
And Warsaw is a capital, a mark of a country.

Ok, let's drop this offtopic. Cheers.
Alatar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2016, 06:41 PM   #2437
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,426
Likes (Received): 5284

ok, but you missed my point, there's love at first sight and there is falling in love with someone or a place that you didn't like at first sight. I fell in love with Paris at first sight, now I find it somewhat boring and predictable, whereas I kind of like Warsaw at first sight and now I find it beautiful after it was cleaned up a bit and I learned more about. Sorry, this question has not been resolved, but maybe we'll continue later or maybe a professor of aesthetic philosophy will referee solution
__________________
ten rząd wstrząsa podstawami naszej państwowości i funkcjonowania społeczeństwa. Natomiast większość społeczeństwa śpi, nie zwraca uwagi, co się dzieje i trzeba je z tego snu obudzić - Piotr S


Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2016, 11:15 AM   #2438
Ring
Before you die, you see..
 
Ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 5,907
Likes (Received): 13147

Our "favorite" infill is almost done!


Infill by Nicholas Lelewski, on Flickr
__________________
flickr

[Warszawa] Miasto Feniksa

Mruczek, Urbanista1 liked this post
Ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2016, 05:08 PM   #2439
Mruczek
Warrior of Excel
 
Mruczek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Outside Blue Banana
Posts: 10,441
Likes (Received): 13470

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
Right, I think tourism except very superficial types of it, are about learning about a place and seeing something new, expanding our knowledge.
I don't want to ruin your enthusiasm, but it isn't. Like it or not, 80% of tourists want to take a rest, get some sport, get some drink and visit the ultimate-super-hyper-landmark, provided that it won't cost them more than 20 euro.

That's why Warsaw will never win over Canary Islands and actually I don't see much problem about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
You won't get lost in Warsaw either, there are very few streets that look the same.
Try Ursynów

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
Every time I visit Paris or Amsterdam, even though these are extremely beautiful cities, I got lost very quickly.
That is unfortunate true. One gets lost always when one can't see the line of the horizon, like in Warsaw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post


yes, I did watch and noticed it. This guy really did his homework and had access to some truly rare and precious documents, imagine the actual signed pre-war plans to destroy an huge ancient city. I like his tour of the castle, didn't know that conservators during the war spirited out so many valuable artifacts as rubble to aid in the rebuilding. Amazing determination.

Kind of explains why Poles don't like to follow rules, because the rules were always against us.
Depends who like and who doesn't. Zachwatowicz, Biegański and the whole group of "reconstructionists" were able to willingly go across the then-conservationist doctrine. Against lots of their compatriots and especially against lots of architects, I might say.

Today conservationist authorities, especially in Warsaw, are narrow minded doctrinaires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
I would not want Warsaw to be like Berlin or Vienna, it wouldn't be an honest reflection of its history. Besides about half of Berlin looks a lot like Warsaw.
You mean, Marzahn? You're too cruel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
It certainly isn't like Prague overall, but many parts are. As for the suburbs, they are just as horrible in Prague or Budapest or even Paris, where they also had commie blocks.
Pathology called "urbanistyka łanowa" exists neither in Prague/Budapest, nor in Paris. Gated communities do, but not to such an extent. If you want to compare it to something, Johannesburg is perhaps the good example. With that subtle difference, that Joburg is one of the most dangerous cities in the first world and Warsaw - one of the safests.
__________________
We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us. Winston Churchill
Z archiwum Mruczka:
Buk Miłosław Szamotuły
Barcelona Budapeszt Grodno Kowno Madryt Moskwa Ukraina
Mruczek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2016, 06:12 PM   #2440
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,426
Likes (Received): 5284

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek

I don't want to ruin your enthusiasm, but it isn't. Like it or not, 80% of tourists want to take a rest, get some sport, get some drink and visit the ultimate-super-hyper-landmark, provided that it won't cost them more than 20 euro.

That's why Warsaw will never win over Canary Islands and actually I don't see much problem about it.
the example you cited Canary Islands is a place I would rarely want to go, but that's me, no cultural value. that's why I prefer Greece to combine relaxation with culture. Tourists that go to London won't get any rest either or Paris has no beach from what I recall. People do expect value and ease of getting there. In that sense Warsaw has lots to see and compared to latter cities cited excellent value, meals and tickets to shows much cheaper. I saw Aida and Madam Butterfly in Warsaw last year for $20 per ticket. The Opera Garnier in Paris was over a $100 to see Tosca. And Warsaw also has many historic areas and museums of immense interest - Jewish Museum, Uprising Museum, soon re-opened Warsaw History Museum, Chopin Museum, Kopernicus Centre (which my friends young and old loved)....and no one can deny that Warsaw has its own super hyper landmark....Old Town, Castle Square with unique column of Zigmund Augustus, Palace of Culture and much more... and much more. Yes, Paris is more beautiful and exotic, a first timer to Europe would prefer Paris, even I did, but the next time you go you may want to see something different and Warsaw is very easy to get to and has a very quick link to the airport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek

That is unfortunate true. One gets lost always when one can't see the line of the horizon, like in Warsaw
It's the sameness, lack of unique landmarks that got us lost. All very charming of course, but the same charming experience. In Warsaw you get a few different city experiences in one and yes one of them not particularly charming, the commie block suburbs. But the commie block Zelazna Brama is starting to create some exciting and yes jarring juxtaposition with the old kamienice and the new infill that is trying to repair the traditional fabric destroyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek

Depends who like and who doesn't. Zachwatowicz, Biegański and the whole group of "reconstructionists" were able to willingly go across the then-conservationist doctrine. Against lots of their compatriots and especially against lots of architects, I might say.

Today conservationist authorities, especially in Warsaw, are narrow minded doctrinaires.
Yes, I generally don't like the approach of the Venice Charter fascists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek
urbanistyka łanowa
Did you coin this phrase? Not sure what it is, is it a form of architecture or planning. hideous buildings exist everywhere, is this is uniquely Polish variant?
__________________
ten rząd wstrząsa podstawami naszej państwowości i funkcjonowania społeczeństwa. Natomiast większość społeczeństwa śpi, nie zwraca uwagi, co się dzieje i trzeba je z tego snu obudzić - Piotr S


Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
warsaw, warszawa

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu